Mic placement for recording (specific question)

[Great Googly Moogly]

I have an 1/8 inch input jack on my camcorder for an external mic. I already have the adapter to convert from XLR to 1/8 inch and was thinking of using my Sure 58 for a slightly improved sound quality as compared to what the on-board mic has to offer. I don't think I can use my Rode NT-4 since it utilizes phantom power. I may try experimenting with this anyway, actually, and compare the two. My question, though, is "What is the general rule for mic placement when trying to pick up more low end from the guitar? Is there a place people generally like to place the mic when looking for more bass response? Any other comments related to what I'm doing are also appreciated.

[Michelob]

Good query Locust777... we posted simultaneously about recording but I forgot to ask the question you are posing... it is absolutely important.
First of all... i often see two mics in many video (crossed over) respectively pointing to the sound hole and to the fretboard... do we need two?

[Libre]

I've gotten good results with a good condenser mike (AKG C3000). This, about 2.5 feet from sound hole. This mike does require phantom power - so I use tube preamp. When shooting video I use the same set-up plus camcorder - then sound synch the audio and video in final mix - using SONY Vegas software for video editing.
I never got a decent track using the on-board mike on my cam-corder.
I've also tried using multiple mikes but the set-up is more complicated and the results no better - to my ear.
As far as Michelob's other question - I just put my vids up there, I'm fully identifiable, as I am on this forum. I guess if anyone wants to hunt me down they can find me as they will know where to look - outside the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

[Richard]

Libre, what is "phantom power" and "tube preamp"? My 2008 New Years resolution will be to video-record myself, but I'll be starting from scratch on a technology basis.
If anyone here has the patience to walk me through the preferred hardware and software required for a good audio-visual recording, in total layman's terms, it would be much appreciated. We're talking about "the ham-bone is connected to the shin-bone" kind of stuff.
Thanks!

[Michelob]

Good reply Libre, simple, straightforward and very useful.

[Libre]

Hey, Richard.
I don't claim to be any kind of an expert - and I expect one of the gurus here to call me a jack-ass, but I'll take a crack at it.
Lower end - high impedence - mics sometimes have their own power supply and battery in the mike. These typically have a 1/8 inch or 1/4 inch jack plug at the end. Better - low impedence - recording mics need an external power supply - or "phantom power" as it is called - I don't know why they call it that - maybe because it sounds cool. These mics have a different end - it's a connector with 3 holes. The phantom power can be provided by a device called a "pre amp". There is an electronic version of the old style vacuum tube amps called a "tube amp" and that's what I use for the phantom power. It's just a little black box with inputs and an output. You plug the 3 hole connector into it, and you plug the output of the pre-amp (depending on cables may have a 3 hole on one end and a 1/4 jack plug on other end) into your mixing board - or even directly into your sound card on your computer (with an in-line 1/8 mono adapter).
I'll let the others take it from here.

[Todd]

I would forget about using a 58 with an 1/8 inch adaptor.

It wont improve anything. You're best bet may be to by an "all in one"
soundcard with onboard preamps.
Record your audio on to the computer as you're videotaping.
Then sync it together in Windows Movie maker, or some such software.
Its really easy,and sounds great.

Here are a couple of links. About 300.00usd would get you into
a very decent soundcard, with preamps, and a condensor mic.
That is EXTREMELY reasonable.


Soundcard with preamps to power mics
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Inspire1394/

And a very nice condensor microphone
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M3Rode/

[Great Googly Moogly]

I would forget about using a 58 with an 1/8 inch adaptor.

It wont improve anything. You're best bet may be to by an "all in one"
soundcard with onboard preamps.
Record your audio on to the computer as you're videotaping.
Then sync it together in Windows Movie maker, or some such software.
Its really easy,and sounds great.

Here are a couple of links. About 300.00usd would get you into
a very decent soundcard, with preamps, and a condensor mic.
That is EXTREMELY reasonable.


Soundcard with preamps to power mics
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Inspire1394/ (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Inspire1394/)

And a very nice condensor microphone
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M3Rode/ (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M3Rode/)[/quote] I appreciate your input, Todd, since I find you to be a recording wizard, evidenced by what I've seen and heard here on the forum. I actually already have a matched pair of Rode NT4s, Sony Vegas software (as Marc mentioned) and a Fire Wire 410 audio interface. One thing after another, though, has kept me from getting this little "studio" of mine up and running. I'm finishing the floor now with florescent green floor paint to match the walls (for chroma key). My camcorder is a Panasonic PV-GS300. It's an amazing camera that records video at "broadcast quality" and the external mic jack is supposed to be a way of offering an improved audio as compared to the one that is "on-board." So what I was trying to do here is throw together something quickly, in advance of completing my "studio," in hopes of an audio quality that is at least acceptable. I'm gonna experiment with a couple more things here and may wind up finding out that using the audio supplied by the camera (external or otherwise) may just wind up being a waste of time. Further comments still greatly appreciated.

[Richard]

Thanks, Libre and Todd. That's exactly what I was looking for!

[Great Googly Moogly]

Also, if anyone can post in response to my mic placement quest, too, that would be great, too. I appreciate your responses!

[Faya]

Depends on if you are using one mic or two........

if you're using one mic, i like putting it near the sound hole just in front of your thumb on your picking hand.
if you're using 2, then i like putting them one facing the sound hole coming up from underneath and one point toward the body of the guitar up by the neck and fretboard.

now if you're using 3 do the same as with 2, BUT put one out in front of you about 3or 4 feet away from you and crank it as loud as you can!

You should just experiment with all kinds of ways until you find the desired sound you want..........that's what i did.

Hope this helps.............;):cool:

Thought i would add...........that in all of these examples i keep the mic at least a foot or foot and a half away from me................except in the one where i use more than 2-mics............then i start placing additional mics at about 3 0r 4-feet and as far as 6-feet away or more.

Make sense.............LOL!!:confused:

[Faya]

oh yeah..........!!!

once you find the mic placement you like, put some tape on the floor to mark where you have them!!

that way if you have to move them for some reason, you still know where they go......;)

believe me.............but even an inch off on one mic will change the tone of the final recording!

[Todd]

Unfortunately, there cant really be any really exact mic placement
suggestions. It can be literally a million places.

I can give you a very general idea.

The closer the mic to the guitar, the more bass frequencies you will
get. The only time that's not true is when using an Omnidirectional
mic, which you or i probably never will. They're just not used for guitar,
and they pickup way too much room sound, which is not good for small'ish
rooms, like you'd find in a normal household. Omni mics dont exhibit "proximity"
effect, which is increasing bass as the distance shortens from mic to guitar.

The further away the mic, the less bass you'll get. But you will get
more "air" in the sound. The downside to mic'ing from more than
a few feet away is, if you're in a "normal" household room= rectangle/drywall
from 10x10 to 15x20, you will get a ton of room "ringing" which will
plague the sound with nasty low mid range, and "boxy" sound.
However, you can cure 80 percent of that, by deadening the room down
with absorbent material, such as acoustic foam, rugs, drapes, etc..
You then use a reverb/ambience plugin in your audio software, to generate
the ambience you like.

The more the mic is towards the fingerboard side of the guitar, the more
harmonics and overtones will come through. The down side of that
angle is more nail noise will also come through. Also, more lefthand noise
will be apparent.

The more the mic is towards the bridge side of the guitar, the more
midrange, and definition you will get. It also picks up less right hand
noise. This may seem backwards, cause you'd assume if the mic is
towards the right hand, it would pick up more clicking, but that's not
the case. I dont know why, im just telling you my personal expirience.
The dowside to the bridge side obviously is the opposite of the neck side
advantage. You'll get less overtones and harmonic energy.

I personally, go with = mics 5 feet away. Off to my right (bridge side) facing
into the center of the guitar. The mics are actually sitting "even" at the bottom edge
of the guitar. The mics hieght, are level with the soundhole or so. Maybe a tad higher.
I have my room completely deadened down with foam, rugs, etc.. Then i use
Waves IR1 reverb to get the right ambience.

[Faya]

check out this .........................
http://www.orange-fields.com/widepages/acguitmplac.htm

just more fuel for the fire.......:lol:

http://www.humbuckermusic.com/acguitrectec.html

[Todd]

check out this .........................
http://www.orange-fields.com/widepages/acguitmplac.htm

just more fuel for the fire.......:lol:

All that info is really good, except, its aimed toward steel string flattops
and recording them to fit in a mix.

None of that really rings true for solo classical and/or flamenco
TK

[Faya]

and some more on the endless possibilities of mic placement!!...........:lol::lol:

http://emusician.com/tutorials/emusic_sixstring_strategies/index.html

[Faya]

All that info is really good, except, its aimed toward steel string flattops
and recording them to fit in a mix.

None of that really rings true for solo classical and/or flamenco
TK

dude..........i'm not reading them...........i'm just posting them as i find them.......LOLLOL!!!!

[Faya]

ok!!........this is classical guitar orientated...........

http://www.edmontonclassicalguitarsociety.org/art009.htm

[Faya]

this one just looks very informative..........

http://books.google.com/books?id=qeK6mZy6sV0C&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=examples+of+mic+placement+for+classical+guitar&source=web&ots=G1TOgx1GO8&sig=GwQl7c4O_maP2kXyNFaKmRh3hGI#PPP1,M1

[Faya]

hey!!!.................this one looks familiar........

http://forum.guitarsalon.com/archive/index.php?t-8616.html

[Faya]

sorry................i'll stop now!!

but you get the idea...................lots O stuff on the net these days!!

[fodera6]

I have an NT4 and yes, it needs power but it has an internal battery compartment. Mine does at least.

I agree with Todd. Lots of places to end up but there are some places to start from that are worth mentioning.

Two separate condensers are a good way to go since you can move them around. That's the NT4's only weakness as you know. In general, I find that in addition to the proximity effect, the more parallel the mic capsule is to the source (top/back), the more bass you will get. However, that generalization is not strong enough to stand on its own with complex acoustic instruments like a guitar or a double bass. Still, this is something that sort of guides me along with all the other rules and tricks I've learned as a recording and live engineer. Different frequencies emanate in all different directions from the instrument and experimenting and finding that sweet spot just takes time and experience.

Be aware that with two mics and above, you have to take phase cancellation into consideration. It becomes very interesting keeping out phase issues with three mics. To check your phase, either sum it to mono or reverse the phase on one or both of the channels.

I tend to use a Dual Mono spaced pair. That's what I have been using and that's what the engineer happened to pick when I recorded the last few times. One mic is about two feet out pointing straight at the fingerboard between the neck/body joint and the soundhole (capsule parallel to the fingerboard). And the other is at the end of the guitar facing in to the bridge at a 15º angle to the top (also two feet away).

As we know, there is a vast amount of info available on the net. The main thing is to trust your ears and experiment.

Yet another link!
http://www.edinformatics.com/inventions_inventors/microphone.htm