Flamenco: 4 and 5-finger Rasgueo

[Anjelo]

Someday when I get the time and chance, I'll consult with teacher but for now since I'm learning on my own I have another question and would appreciate the generosity of the people here...


4 or 5-finger rasgueo? Advantages and/or disadvantages of one over the other?

[Dave Tate]

I'd learn to use both, it totally depends on whether you want/need groupings of four or five (per beat, usually).

[brian richardson]

ya know Anjelo-
you remind me of someone
i once knew.

yo faya don't you do a six finger one?
not kidding folks.

[Sandra]

I would say that if you have to think about how many fingers you're using, you are missing the spirit of rasgueado.

But as far as your 4 vs. 5 finger question, I guess you're asking if one uses their thumb in rasgueado?

I don't, but would be interested in other opinions. :)

[tanolonco]

Anjelo: there are a variety of rasquesos that are used to serve the compas. here is a list of several: 4 fingers down, 4 fingers down and index finger up (a total of 5 "hits" if you will), rolling 4 finger (multiple 4 finger in rapid sequence), rolling 5 finger (multiple 5 finger in rapid sequence), 3 finger, triplet (thumb and finger--thumb goes up, finger down and then thumb down--note, there are other finger sequences for a triplet but this one is often used). these are but a few that have been used but are the principle rasqueos. the key point to remember--you use them to serve the compas.

learn the basic two raquesos, the 4 and 5 finger--flamenco palos use both and some palos use both within that palo (for example an alegrias or tangos and tientos). the triplet and rolling rasqueos are nice tools to embellish a point and can be learned once the basic ones are learned. for example, a bulerias may use a triplet at the end or to punctuate a point in the middle and a rolling rasqueo can add a nice frosting to a malaguena or graninas (i hope i spelled the latter correctly).

as to your point about learning on one's own--unless you have your basics down pat i would strongly suggest you find a teacher. one thing a teacher can do is observe and correct any errors thus helping you prevent developing bad habits. additionally, someone well versed in flamenco can help you with not only technique but how to live the compas in playing. one thing that i think almost everyone will agree upon: it is easier to learn something correctly than to unlearn something incorrectly learned (and developed). it really behooves you to find a teacher if you do not the core basics of playing flamenco and/or classical down pat.

[NFalla]

tanolonco pretty much covered it well............;)

And i agree that learning flamenco from the get go all by yourself..............<without have at least someone ya can go to and ask them to demonstrate the techniques properly to you.).............is a good way to learn some bad habits.

As to 4 & 5 scratches..............learn them ALL proficiently!!!!! ..............you will use them...............!!!

Yo bri..............i got ones that have been lost to history in my rep.............heheheheeeeeeee..............<including some "Traditional" songs that are never heard of anymore...........heheheheeeeee..........X2!!!!!
:mrgreen:

[Dave Tate]

I would say that if you have to think about how many fingers you're using, you are missing the spirit of rasgueado.

But as far as your 4 vs. 5 finger question, I guess you're asking if one uses their thumb in rasgueado?

I don't, but would be interested in other opinions. :)

Actually, he's referring to the pinky as the fifth finger - the index goes both up and down, counting as two. :)

[Anjelo]

Dave and Tanolonco, Thanks for your opinions. I am actually working on both and was just wondering if there's a signficance why the modern players tend to use 4 fingers only where the "i" does up and down.

Exactly what I was referring to Dave, the Index does 2-strokes.

ex: ||||-|
with the 5-finger, you end up with the "i" up, with the 4-finger "i"down

Perhaps more accent on the downbeat?

[NFalla]

Perhaps more accent on the downbeat?

Depends.............i think "more accent" on the "UP-Beat" sounds better in Rumba type of songs............

[Dave Tate]

IMHO, the idea is NOT to have an accented note - it should sound continuous. At least while you're learning.

Modern players are using the 4-note basically because it sounds cool. Tradition has basically gone out the window in recent years, so why not?

Groupings of four sound more "naturally rhythmic", especially to western ears. You can get a very intense machine-gun sound with a 4-note, whereas a five-note works really well for slower palos, especially tarantas, where free meter fits the less "normal" grouping of five well.

Of course, it all depends on how you do it yourself. If you're very even from finger-to-finger, you can technically even make them sound like each other, depending on which finger hits the beat, etc.

Just learn both well, so you can pick and choose which you like better on the fly. I constantly change it up.

~Dave

[NFalla]

IMHO, the idea is NOT to have an accented note - it should sound continuous. At least while you're learning.

Modern players are using the 4-note basically because it sounds cool. Tradition has basically gone out the window in recent years, so why not?

Groupings of four sound more "naturally rhythmic", especially to western ears. You can get a very intense machine-gun sound with a 4-note, whereas a five-note works really well for slower palos, especially tarantas, where free meter fits the less "normal" grouping of five well.

Of course, it all depends on how you do it yourself. If you're very even from finger-to-finger, you can technically even make them sound like each other, depending on which finger hits the beat, etc.

Just learn both well, so you can pick and choose which you like better on the fly. I constantly change it up.

~Dave

NOT every "Scratch" in flamenco is meant to sound "continuous"...............;)
although i understand what you are saying about "Learning"......

[Jubilee Valence]

...sorry Anj'


but I'm th' proverbial "bad habit" guy!! ;)

I've even got a nickname compliments of Dr. H in Tucson:

"NO RASGUEDOS!!!!!" :mrgreen:

( but uhh....."springtime comes soom..." )



Jubi
psst! Keith...what shoes!!??

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c27/jubiduuu123/image003.gif
:p

[tanolonco]

the compas always has to take priority over anything and a rasqueo is no exception. for example, an alegrias can have for beats 1 and 2 as a 5 "hit" rasqueo that would not warrant an accent on the upstroke since beat 3 will receive the accent. here an accented "hit" would not be acceptable as it could muddle the timing--especially if dancers are involved. the heel of shoe can really hurt when applied to the head. the more free time palos could allow accented "hits" as faya mentioned. this is especially true if one uses a 4 fingers down and then follows with the thumb down rasqueo. this technique often covers more than one beat and is generally used to either end a piece or provide an embellished pause.

dave, the 4 note rasqueo has been around for a very long time and has been used in many traditional pieces--say the sigiyuras (sorry if the spelling is incorrect)--and i am not sure if modern players use it just to be cool--it is a "natural" technique as it is divided into 4 parts--the note is divided into quarters. i would definitely say the triplet (i temporarily forget the name of the player who is credited with "inventing it" but the guy's name starts with "M") is a more modern technique--one rarely sees it with the "old school" but it is used quite often with the "new school" players.