Flamenco Chords

[Michelob]

I hope I correctly figured out how to attach the PDF file of Flamenco Chords, which i am pleased to share with due permission from the authors and contributors from Foro Flamenco, mrMagenta, HemeolaMan and Ricardo.

The proviso is that we ought to share any inaccuracy which we may identify or contribution to this program, with such project team.

I felt it was an exceedingly useful reference, and a good omen to start this Flamenco room...'hope some of you may feel the same way.

[NGiorgio]

I remember seeing those at foro flamenco. Thanks for the file. They are worth having.

[Michelob]

I remember seeing those at foro flamenco. Thanks for the file. They are worth having.

This should be the most uptodate version, unless I attached the old version, as it is a continuing project.

[for the record: I changed my avatar, back to my own ugly face... I didn't feel I really deserved to associate myself with an image of Paco de Lucia]

[Dave Tate]

Interesting, I didn't realize a chord could be considered "flamenco"!

Thanks for sharing, very handy.

[Tony Hyman]

Yes thats the one .Imagine "Kentucky" changing the Colonal's picture ,things
just wont seem or taste the same anymore.
Thanks for the chords Micheal ,but my question ,or still better! interest to put it another way,is purley born out of ignorance I assure you, with no snideness
or ungratefulness intended.
A quick glance over the chart raises the question in my mind as to what fundamental elements in those chord fingerings or shapes ,make them different to any other chord chart .More spescifically what ratio is used to determine that they are givern the term Flamenco Chords .Are different tunings used with those fingerings .I know without generizing that Country Guitarists for example saying they dont play Jazz Guitar Chords or vise versa
or Folk dudes dont play that classical stuff because they dont even write the chords .The string of "us and them"and excuses seems endless under the veil or smokescreen
of purist partisanship ,which I know is not the intention of this thread but to
my mind chords remain the same eg A major or A7 remains that in Western
Accepted Nomininclature no matter what Genre of mucians play them ,as I
understand music.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Interesting, I didn't realize a chord could be considered "flamenco"!

A quick glance over the chart raises the question in my mind as to what fundamental elements in those chord fingerings or shapes ,make them different to any other chord chart?Hey Mich,

I, also, am curious as to how any collection of chords could be referred to as "flamenco" chords?

[Michelob]

A quick glance over the chart raises the question in my mind as to what fundamental elements in those chord fingerings or shapes ,make them different to any other chord chart .More spescifically what ratio is used to determine that they are givern the term Flamenco Chords.....

If i am allowed to be lazy, and also since this came from a more competent authority, i will quote ricardo (Richard Marlow)'s excerpts on the very issue:

Ricardo wrote:
"If you want to think like it is a chart, that is no good IMO. The idea was to expose to guitar players coming into the flamenco world, the universe of clever fingerings for special chords found in flamenco guitar, very different than you typical bossa nova/jazz/pop rock whatever. So I think it is important to keep folks focused on context. The GENERAL context for all those dang chords is flamenco music. When will you play Eb in Flamenco? Well, when you are in the key of D phrygian, which happens sometimes. It would be the II chord, and probably have a #11 once you start to understand context.

But nothing so special about FINGERINGS in that context. Usually your standard barres will work. But there is an entire TONALITY based on D# phrygian, and getting that in the mind and soul is important. So those flat 9's are REALLY fricken important, and the way they sound when fingered proper with open strings and inversions. That is a big part of where the "aire" comes from, the whole VIBE of the thing. It is not just about the easiest way to read a chart. So without having tell that whole fricken story to describe ONE chord, at least we can spell it proper to give some idea of the path we are on. Hope that makes sense."

Hopefully this will make Ricardo want to hang out here as well, a little more.

[Dave Tate]

Well, I get the point. There's certainly a batch of common chords heard in flamenco, practically ad nauseum. This is basically those chords collected together.

My point was the terminology "flamenco chord" seems strange, because as Tony points out, an A is an A.

~Dave

EDIT - Michelob already replied a much better reply. ;)

[Jubilee Valence]

....Hopefully this will make Ricardo want to hang out here as well, a little more....

yeah, & he might want to sign on with his real name....etc....

[Michelob]

yeah, & he might want to sign on with his real name....etc....

I think he does here at GSI already, as Richard Marlow.

I thought about posting under my name, Giacomo, but am so attached to this Michelob thing; from time to time it is good to remind myself i had a name. However, i am not a pro, and there is no promotianal or other good will to earn to my name. So in my case i will stay with Michelob, and my ugly face next to it.

Ciao

[Great Googly Moogly]

Ricardo wrote:". . .When will you play Eb in Flamenco? Well, when you are in the key of D phrygian, which happens sometimes. It would be the II chord, and probably have a #11 once you start to understand context.

. . . But there is an entire TONALITY based on D# phrygian, and getting that in the mind and soul is important."I think I see what Richard was saying. If I'm getting him right, it's kind of like memorizing an entire dictionary in a new language and building up a 2,000 word vocabulary but still not be to form a single sentence. Wouldn't it have been better, then, for this whole thing to have been put in context of each key, rather than chord by chord? I think this would be the only real way to make it distinct from a mere chord chart. Such a great amount of work has gone into this and with just that one little bit of tweaking, it could become such a mind-blowing, invaluable tool, no?

[Tony Hyman]

[QUOTE=Michelob;112263]If i am allowed to be lazy, and also since this came from a more competent authority, i will quote ricardo (Richard Marlow)'s excerpts on the very issue:




Micheal wrote
But nothing so special about FINGERINGS in that context. Usually your standard barres will work. But there is an entire TONALITY based on D# phrygian, and getting that in the mind and soul is important. So those flat 9's are REALLY fricken important, and the way they sound when fingered proper with open strings and inversions. That is a big part of where the "aire" comes from, the whole VIBE of the thing. It is not just about the easiest way to read a chart. So without having tell that whole fricken story to describe ONE chord, at least we can spell it proper to give some idea of the path we are on. Hope that makes sense."

Granted the modes do determine the flavour of cirtain types of music ,one merely has to Google about a bit to see the influence they have and the authorities relating thereto.My question was purley acidemical .Any muscian worth his salt will tell you that blindly following a chord chart is not going to
be a quick fix to playing and understanding any type of music.
So as I understand this when reading it one must not take the chords as shown at face value but also to bare in mind that there is a spesial feel and
vibe involved eg" phregian mode = Flamenco ,Dorian Mode in Folk Music and
Loation ,Mixoldian in Jazz and other forms of Pop music."extract Wikepedia
Which to my mind only means that that particular chord chart is the same as any other general guitar chord chart but has to be interpreted in a flamenco
style .The same way a blues or Irish guitar player would apply the modes characteristic of his stye or vibe .So without twisting or distorting the meaning of the term Flamenco Chords as explained by the authority involved.
Would that then mean that those are then chords generally used by Flamenco
Guitarists analogous to chords genererally used by say Jazz Guitarists or
Blues or Country Players or Rock players.So to the uninformed like myself ,flamenco Chords are not a seperate speci of chords ,if I may call it that,but that the chord chart as depicted are ,standard guitar chords but are selected for specific Flamenco usage used in that mileu.I say this because
some chord charts are spesifically geared to plectrum style playing eg playing
Amaj 7 on V not not barred but deadening the 5th str because of clashes,the same shape being used in other instances as well.
So the whole point of my interest in this matter would be would those chords
be so selected because of there open string qualities ,or other elements which
render them appropriate to Flamenco Interpretation .
Would my understanding on this matter be correct.

[Michelob]

I think see Richard was saying. If I'm getting him right, it's kind of like memorizing an entire dictionary in a new language and building up a 2,000 word vocabulary but still not be to form a single sentence. Wouldn't it have been better, then, for this whole thing to have been put in context of each key, rather than chord by chord? I think this would be the only real way to make it distinct from a mere chord chart. Such a great amount of work has gone into this and with just that one little bit of tweaking, it could become such a mind-blowing, invaluable tool, no?

The always insightful Locust777. I suppose you have a point, in fact.
I hope the authors will want to come in and add and take from these questions. I e-mailed Ricardo and hope he will.

Edit: Just read Tony's reply. I think Locust's point puts things in an interesting perspective, and I reiterate that i look forward to involving Ricardo on this.
However, Tony's looking at it correctly in the scheme of things.

[Tony Hyman]

Thanks for that Micheal and looking at this gift of your we can also use as a
referal for diagrams of chords which come under discussion under the other topics now and again the way I see it.

[Bernie]

I may be wrong here but I have found that the difference between classical chords and flamenco chords is the addition or deletion of a note(s) or string thereby changing the sound of the chord. For example, in the A major or A minor the 6th string (E) is not struck starting with the open A (5th) string down to the open E (1st) string.
Bernie 8)

[Tony Hyman]

Hi Bernie could you maybe site an example of a classical piece and Flamenco
piece which demonstrates this difference that you encounter.

[Dave Tate]

That's a valid point Bernie, but that's also a different chord with a different name. In your example, it's commonly called a A/E or Am/E on guitar.

Edit - nm, I see what you're saying. Still, a chord is the same chord if it contains the appropriate "ingredients". For an A, those ingredients are A, C# and E, regardless of how they're constructed.

[Great Googly Moogly]

I may be wrong here but I have found that the difference between classical chords and flamenco chords is the addition or deletion of a note(s) or string thereby changing the sound of the chord. For example, in the A major or A minor the 6th string (E) is not struck starting with the open A (5th) string down to the open E (1st) string.
Bernie 8)Did anyone understand what Bernie was trying to say here and if so could they try to re-word it somehow?

Jazz guitarists have their own library of chords, no doubt. Not only the type of chords they use but also the particular way they voice them. And now we have a collection of chords termed "flamenco chords." But "classical chords?" C'mon now! This is starting to get a bit rediculous. (Sorry, Bernie, if I'm sounding condescending and I'm willing to stand corrrected but I just can not imagine what the argument might be for this.)

[Great Googly Moogly]

"CLASSICAL" CHORDS: Majors, minors, diminished, augmented, and all types of 7ths found in both root position and any inversion with almost endless combinations of voicing possibilities.

I think that pretty much covers it.

[Tony Hyman]

We will have to see what Bernie comes up with first Locust ,in order to see what he means .Which could prove intersting I think.

[Great Googly Moogly]

We will have to see what Bernie comes up with first Locust ,in order to see what he means .Which could prove intersting I think.I hate to be a "last word freak" but nothing can differ with my definition without being wrong! LOL

[Tony Hyman]

I thought while waiting for some explantion as to difference between the two concepts other than a certain style or infered vibe that go with cirtain genres pertaining to Chords as understood in general.I remember Mel Bay bought a book out years back ,I cant recall the official title ,but I do remember the term Orchesteral Chords for guitar .Wether it was for steel
or Nylon, it didnt make any difference .I do remember that a lot of these
ochesteral chords as being a lot if not exactly the same as the inversions
which so frequently occure in Sor,Giuliani ,Carcassi,Barrios Tarrega and many more with eg the E in Ist inversion II pos with the G# on 6str and the rest I/2
Bar .Its almost a stock inversion like the A ist inversion II pos C# 5th str .
And I suppose I could go on and on.
The point is one woundnt normally play those inversions in normal 12 bar Taj Mahal type blues as I recall .Also streight Country mainly happy 3 chord stuff.
You would obviously find them in Jazz and even Classical Jazz from what I have read on Pioneers such as Harry Volpe who taught the respected Joe Pass and his Genre.
So until the contrary is presented I would construe those chords as structured by Carcassi,Sor ,Coste,Giuliani and the other Masters who aslo
use the familiar recurring harmonies wether named or not as Classical Chords
deriverd out of the concept oF Orchesral Chords as defined by Mel Bay and
authorities such as Harry Volpe .What of Django for instance with his amazing
inversions which both Segovia and John Williams hold in the most highest esteem.So I would stick my neck out a bit and say that there can be such
a thing as typical Classical Guitar Chords as there are typical Power Chords,Blues Chords ,Country and so forth.Indeed these repititions of Classical Chords make sight reading that much easier as well with continuos
exposure and practice.So the only differance without stating the obvious intil
the contrary is presented ,between the Flamenco Chords and Classical Chords
is the implied vibe or deeper understanding of Flamenco Music .The term "vibe"
as used in the authority presented our learned brother Micheal.
How this for a self ordained Judgement.

[Great Googly Moogly]

The thing that's really ridiculous about this is that we're not even discussing "guitar" chords when talking about "classical music," anyway. I, myself, never made the distinction of "classical 'guitar' chords" and this is because "classical guitar" is clearly not limited to music written specifically for the guitar. The same chord voicings that are found in Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, written for the piano, for example, are the same voicings that are carried over into the guitar arrangement. The guitar and its "commonly occurring chord voicings" had nothing at all to do with the arranging of that piece. Chord types that are found in "classical music" are as I stated earlier and whether that music is played on a guitar or not, doesn't change the common practice of those types of compositions.

I think if I continue corresponding with you so much about chords, Tony, I may begin having nightmares of waking up in Hel with endless images of chord symbols flashing through my head. You may consider changing your user name to "Chord symbol Tony." :)

[Tony Hyman]

Sorry Locust but I never went on about chord symbols for classical music
only that chords wether named as such or not found in classical voicings are are also frequently found in the other genres ,the focus here was what is the difference between these Flamenco Chords so named and other general chords on guitar .Who said anything in this thread that chord symblos in classics must be written out as your suggestion implies I am trying to get all hung up about.Remember "No Chord is an Island" as you yourself said in the
A13b9 thread.

[Dave Tate]

I think if this thread was titled "Popular Flamenco Chords" this discussion would've never arose. It'd make perfect sense then, just like a list of "Popular Bluegrass Chords" or something to that effect.

In other words, I don't think anyone is claiming these chords are unique to flamenco, they're just commonly found in it.

[Michelob]

I think if this thread was titled "Popular Flamenco Chords" this discussion would've never arose.

... and we could all have watched TV instead? If i may...It is the missing or weak link, the element of doubt or perceived inaccuracy which indeed instigates a debate, or a Forum along with the edifying exchange arising from it ;-)

I think Locust has a good point about the presentation of these Chord pages. Probably the "key" should have been the categorizing common denominator.
I found this reference quite useful nonetheless, once I understood Ricardo's views -which I posted along.

I am cautiously pleased that the Forum has resumed the sound of a convivial atmoshere I had missed so much, and that the Flamenco room provides yet another stimulating venue for conversation, debate and learning.

[NGiorgio]

I think if this thread was titled "Popular Flamenco Chords" this discussion would've never arose. It'd make perfect sense then, just like a list of "Popular Bluegrass Chords" or something to that effect.

In other words, I don't think anyone is claiming these chords are unique to flamenco, they're just commonly found in it.

Dave, that's it exactly. This collection of chords was put together over at Foro Flamenco, which is a flamenco only forum. Therefore they used the term "flamenco chords" so that the forum members could reference the list.

I play a bit of bossa nova and samba material and as in other Brazilian styles on guitar, there are some chords which are typical to those forms of music. Also, bossa nova and samba guitar can be played in chord melody (solo) as well as comping (accompaniment) form. These two forms will use different voicing or inversions if the same chord. There are certain voicings which will give a certain bossa nova flavor to a chord.

Much the same in flamenco as the guitar is used for both solo and song and dance accompaniment. So there will be quite a few chords used in flamenco which will have a definite flamenco "flavor" but may be used in other types of music.

Now take the ever popular first position A major chord. Most guitarists will use the 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers for the fretted notes of E 4th string, A 3rd and C# 2nd, along with the open A 5th string and open E on the 1st. Flamenco players will use the 1st finger to cover the 4th and 3rd string with the 2nd finger on the 2nd string, leaving the 3rd and 4th fingers available to add bflat on the 3rd string or G 1st, and also G on the 6th and perhaps C# on the 5th string. Not that what was just described is unique to flamenco but it is very typical.

Yes, perhaps the listing of chords may have been more aptly named "Chords Used in Flamenco" but then there may have not been such an lively and interesting discussion.

[Great Googly Moogly]

The main thing that I thought was way over the top, was to then go and introduce the term "classical chords."

Tony, you realize that I was joking at the end of my last post, I hope. I had begun having flashbacks to the other threads where we discussed chord symbol designations 'till we were both exhausted. I suppose my humor can be full of disturbing imagery, at times.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Besides, me using the spelling of the word "Hel" with only one 'L' would be a reference to the Norse "Hel" which is really more like a day of bad weather, so it's really not so bad. :)

[Bernie]

I need to clarify my previous statement. I mistakenly used 'Classical' chords when I meant and should have used either standard, accepted or recognized chords used in numerous guitar genres, for example, rock, pop, jazz, blues etc. I have attempted to play Flamenco guitar for several years and it never occured to me that there are unique or seperate chords for Flamenco. I was simply offering an opinion, an observation based on other peoples comments regarding Flamenco chords. Another opinion or observation is the strumming of chords, ie; single finger or thumb strum vs: a sequential strum beginning with the e-little finger (meñique) followed by the third a-(anular) then the m-middle (medio) and followed by the i-index (indice). Again, just an opinion or observation.
Bernie 8)

[mrMagenta]

Interesting discussion! I don't have time to go in depth, but yeah, the list is supposed to be 'popular/common chords used in flamenco', NOT 'chords that are unique to flamenco'.

Chords are chords, they don't know anything about genre, so of course there are lots of chords in flamenco that are also common in other music.

This list is simply supposed to be a resource for people learning flamenco guitar. It could be helpful for instance when transcribing flamenco, or when looking for alternative chords to incorporate into the basic strumming while playing different palos, or for inspiration while composing etc.

I became interested in this list for my own learning. When playing flamenco you're usually not playing compositions, rather you are supplying a stream of music consisting of compas strumming, falsetas, verse accompaniment etc. After learning some basics, you start to become interested in how to introduce all kinds of variation into that stream.. rhythmically, but also playing around with the chords. That's where a list like this might be handy.

I'd just like to point out that I have somehow messed up the scale charts on the first page of the list, i'll post a corrected version at foro flamenco later.

Look at this list as a BETA-version. There are some bugs in it.

[mrMagenta]

Here's a small update with (hopefully) correct scale diagrams and numbering on all chords so you can reference to them by their root + number (might be useful when you report any errors etc).

[Tony Hyman]

Hey thats cool Locust .I think this whole reaction or response to the labeling
of Chords was a reaction in opposition if I may use the term ,where one is
Labled from a perception point of view ,by others by the chords one playes.
To the point where it can almost be said "You are the Chords You Play" nevermind the style.In my country South Africa one of the seperate genres akin to say Gipsey ,or Country Music is Boere Music ,where the Consitina would take the dominant role like the fiddle or violin in other cultural genres
would.A person from my experience gets booked even because of ones attitude regarding the chords one uses as in "he is the right guy because e
plays "Boere Guitar Chords" .In other words the player is almost type cast
from a public point of view almost like an Actor who may only play certain role
and wont sell should they move outside that perception or Box .
My reaction to the Flamenco Label to Chords was "Ah No !surly not there as
well".But of cause that gose with the terrrtory of playing culturral music and
the true musician must be able to adapt to those unique demands like any other serviice provider I would think and because the guitar from a public
perception wether one likes it or not is a strum ,he plays the right chords instrument.It gets so wierd sometimes,you dare not ask a for example a Jazz Guitarist or other gutarist who has large chordal vocablary just to play a streight A D E open string sounds, in first position .Or Vice Versa a recognised country player or Blues who refuses or who cant due ,to this type casting by the lable of chords and wont move out of that box image.
Sorry if I am boring you with obvious rhetoric which no one can do anything about ,but what was pleasing from a musician point of view was the almost
immidiate to laballing or attributing chords in a narrow sense to only one genre
which sadly enough in my experience and I am no eception,where mucians tend to get locked into those genres to a point of complacancy and use any
excuse not to expand on their musical knowlege because that is what the publc want or the industry demands and anything different will only ruffel the comfort Zone .
Wheee I am so pleased that we are back track as I see it from a purly musician point .

[mrMagenta]

My reaction to the Flamenco Label to Chords was "Ah No !surly not there as well".But of cause that gose with the terrrtory of playing culturral music and the true musician must be able to adapt to those unique demands like any other serviice provider I would think and because the guitar from a public perception wether one likes it or not is a strum ,he plays the right chords instrument.

There will often be some 'purists' and narrow mindedness around any form of cultural music so I understand your concern.

To me this list is not about forming a box. I see it more as an orientation in the general vocabulary. Isn't part of learning a new kind of music also understanding what it is about the sound that hooks you in the first place?
If you are going to play flamenco you will need to learn the musical language or you'll come across as talking gibberish. Rest assured, flamenco is renewing itself and finding new ground all over the planet. But this is happening from the inside out, because there's a lot to flamenco music, and it takes a quite a bit of studying.

Flamenco consists of palos; different musical forms. There are many palos, and they all have different signatures/frameworks. In some of them specific chords play a role in the definition of the palo. If you don't want to be restricted by the frameworks of the palos, nothing is stopping you. But if you're not playing any palo, technically you're not playing flamenco.

The combined sum of all the different palos covers a lot of musical ground, even if one meticulously sticks to the most 'authentic' traditional interpretations that can be found. It makes sense to look what's there before setting out to free the music from its traditional chains.

If anyone wants to pick some ideas or concepts from flamenco to use in their own music, they can simply call it 'inspired by flamenco'. There's certainly a lot of flamencoish kitsch in that category, but it's not all like that. There's also flamenco inspired music that carries it's own authenticity. In the end of the day good music will be good music by its musical merits (hopefully).

[Tony Hyman]

Thats somthing else for sure Mgenta .To the total ignorant such as myself
now those concepts and styles within the Flamenco Genre as you explain there would you be so kind as to explain there practical aplication possibly with this example by Paco who seems to have the crowd in his hands and they clap as if this is an everyday houshold kitchen tune they know so well.
Would this be a traditional Flamenco Piece in the old style or where dose it fit in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkWgLHcwTZU&feature=related

[Great Googly Moogly]

The combined sum of all the different palos covers a lot of musical ground, even if one meticulously sticks to the most 'authentic' traditional interpretations that can be found. It makes sense to look what's there before setting out to free the music from its traditional chains.Man, that was well said! There's enough wisdom right there to last for a lifetime! That's no doubt one of the smartest and most informative things I've ever seen posted on this forum.

There will often be some 'purists' and narrow mindedness around any form of cultural music so I understand your concern. . . If anyone wants to pick some ideas or concepts from flamenco to use in their own music, they can simply call it 'inspired by flamenco'. There's certainly a lot of flamencoish kitsch in that category, but it's not all like that. I find myself comparing this same concept to what I deal in my teaching when it comes to the blues. I find a similarity between the blues and flamenco only in that they are both strict forms that need to be adhered to strictly in order to not "piss off the purists" but at the same time, there's still exists the need to "push the envelope" in order to avoid sounding too redundant. I also teach a lot of rock, and "rock" is a style that can not be separated from the blues, since there are varying degrees of blues elements found in much of it. Some rock is arguably more "bluesy" than others, just for the fact that it contains more blues elements. (Not enough to be considered "blues" per say, but enough to "flavor" it.)

To teach this principle as it relates to blues, I start by teaching my students all (I consider there to be "four") main elements of the blues. I then hand them a CD containing several blues tunes, some of which utilize all four elements, some only three, some two and some only one. I make them identify which elements are present in each tune and which are not. This not only gives them a full understanding of the blues itself, but also teaches them how to introduce various blues elements into anything they do. I think this is precisely what you were getting at up above, Magenta. It's all amazing stuff, really.

Would this be a traditional Flamenco Piece in the old style or where dose it fit in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkWgLHcwTZU&feature=related Either mrMagenta or any of several other flamencos here will be able to answer your question very well. I do know, myself, though, that Paco (I just don't know about this particular case) is one of those who "pushed the envelope," so to speak, a little bit too far, according to many of the "puros," by introducing certain jazz elements, etc., which relates exactly to what I was saying up above.

[Tony Hyman]

Thanks for that Locust .It would be intersesting to be able to understand the different concepts .I think that is what sets teachers apart that ability to identify the true interest of the client and going that extra mile in explaining the backround and significance of a piece instead of just listening to how well
he or she plays it .For example your method in the diffent interpretations of the Blues .Some would say who needs all that boring history stuff we get it on
the net anyway.
But as an example if I never looked up the reason inspiration behind La Souce
Du Lyson and what the Lyson river meant to Coste and other Painters of that
Area in France my approach and attitude would have been a little differrent.
Taking the piece at face value at first ,and here lies the danger in listening to something that must grab one the first time espesially an ear relatively ignorant of the reason behind a cirtain passage , I thouhgt the Second movement the Rondeau Villageois to be a little corny and out of context with the rest of the piece.Till I read a bit up on the region and what the Dance meant in relation to the rest of the piece and how the Allegretto section was
representing the Lyon River speeding up as it leaves its Source in the Introduction section,(excuse the long story) .I looked at a painting also
Titled La Souce Du Lyson by Melet if I recall who some say was a buddy
of Costs in that Region.My point being that my attitude and approach to learning the piece changed not because I forced myself to like that section
but because I understood what it was about.Like today where would certain
pieces or tunes be if it wasnt for the Movie .The lesson I have learned is try
and get as much information on somthing as possible on someone or something before charging in gung ho and relying on natural insticts and
prejuduces .You do yourself such an injustice .That why I think teaching besides the bucks calles for a bit of "the old labour of love".
Spoken by someone who doesnt have any puplis or clients as yet waiting to set up a studio in the country side.

[NFalla]

hey tony.
in response to the video
of paco.

the reason it seems that
it's a "house hold" song
is because it is exactly that.
it is played in a rhythm
that has been around for a long time.;)

the only thing that's different is
paco uses more modern chords and
"jazzes" it up, so to speak.
other than that. it really isn't anything new.
that rhythm as well as all the others that both
modern and old style flamencos use
have been around for a long long time.:mrgreen:

i honestly don't see how just using different
or modern chords is "pushing it too far"???
it's still the same old song.
nothing really new.
now creating a whole new flamenco rhythm!!
that would be new!!

[Tony Hyman]

Thats interesting so talking about the rythms .I suppose one could also define which region a player comes from .like other styles where those into
cirtain the various styles of Jazz,or Blues in America can tell what area a player comes from ,from what I have read .I know I can instinctively tell almost like an accent in language what Area or province a cirtain Consitina
player was infleuenced by .Strangly Jazz also tries to creep in to the traditional pieces as the guitarists and soloists try to expand the formal chord
structures but as always its tradition and most importantly record sales which set the policy as to what extremes an artist my go outside those
paramiters.I suppose its the same in the Flamenco case.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Testing

[Jubilee Valence]

...aw'rite...

what's goin' on?

"..chords?"

What's next...."rhythm/lead!!??"

A) O-U-T-L-A-W (the real deal...)=Db

Q) Foro wannabes= I dunno....if they know so much....why are they invading here to get spanked?!

(..been gone a few days...& look'ee here!?

I thought all this stuff's covered on Sal's "Flamingo..." page...)

LLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
____
psst!

A) Speed DO count

Q) Buy a cejilla; then take it off...

(Wel'p, I gotta admit....this is certainly educational...)

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
___

*Bonus A): Bela Lugosi (upside down...)

Bonus Q): "Bludd! Bludd! I 'vant to 'zuk u'bludd!!"

Hence: "Bonus Stupidity...":

Thus:
*Powerball:

...chords? tremelo?...

:arrow: .....juerga...
[Definition=booze, cigars, tuff guys-JV]

[Tony Hyman]

Hello Jub !this is the Flameco Page

[Jubilee Valence]

Yes!
Indeed!
And it is most assuredly a wonderful contrivence for Flamenco afficianados to share/discuss relevent issues.

But when allowing for ideas that are not easily put to words such as certain "secrets" and so on....one must "dig deep" to get to the real meaning of said ideas....

My posts for instance, when relating to said "secrets" and advice or commentary, must be read aloud as I don't "write" them...I "speak" them, see?

You may quite possibly get the meaning and thus the true wisdom inferred by re-reading it aloud and investigating the clues.

What's the point in trying to "learn" if all you're doing is re-hashing the same rhetoric?

Flamenco is an extremely olde art that is at times mocked under subjugation of dissimilar terms

While predication of real discussion is lost in the blur....

Investgate each & every term in my post and you may become enlightened rather than enraged....

The same with the other contributors; each has something to say....but what it is is what it is(aloud, Tony, aloud! ;) )

In any event don't be confused, simply "ask" for any clarification, and seek wisdom in the darndest places as sometimes that's where you just may find it...

"Sal" has a new guitar.

Bela Lugosi teaches tremolo.

Every "key" has available falsetas unique to it's placement on the fingerboard.

"Chord Shapes" also...

Different forms of the same key will of course provide new stimulus in heard applications thus allowing even stranger falsetas; and thus resolutely the rhythms themselves relating to the other styles mentioned

In a nutshell..."no mystery".....just creativity...

I believe our chords contributor has this in mind when suggesting alternate and standard ideas taken to the next level(s)

And of course as suggested, these root ideas apply to all Western Music...

And.......that's where the mystery begins, hmmnn??
Jubi

[Jubilee Valence]

Tony, check out this interview:

http://www.flamenco-world.com/artists/lole/lole18032004.htm

There's something very on topic in it...

....not neccessarily "chords" per se, but rather relating to palos, compas, and then ultimately to structure & technique

ie "chords"...

Cheers!

[Tony Hyman]

Thanks for that Jubily .Yes things are always much deeper than they look.
The importance of the time signature and the accents of the rythms and what the piece means .I must say this section has got reading into all types of funky new Flamenco Terms that the dudes use around here in trying to follow what the hecks going down here.And I must say its very refreshing and stimulating to see what makes other cultures tick when it comes to the Arts.

[BuleriaChk]

Just joined GSI and saw this thread. You might want to visit my Web Site:

http://www.flamencochuck.com

You can download a .pdf document where I do a harmonic and compas analysis of Flamenco (chords, progressions, counting, etc.) Let me know if you have questions, comments, etc....

I also am an owner of the Yahoo FlamencoDancer group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flamencodancer/

(You might want to check out the Files section there

Finally, here are some YouTube videos I have uploaded, FYI:

Bulerias Solo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL7wL5m1xIg
Solea Solo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjTUZ2D2HhE

Jerez Bulerias: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVxUe5hA_yw
Pilar Ogalla: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrJdHrOyTxs

[lord_id]

God bless you!!!!!