Conde Hermanos, Caviuna = Razilian Rose?

[Michelob]

Here is a rather Sensitive question that is now ensuing at Foro flamenco.
Most recent Conde Hermanos advertized as Brazilian Rosewood on the GSI site [see: http://www.guitarsalon.com/product.php?productid=3277], including mine, read at the bottom of the label “caviuna”, a term generally used to describe an assortment of various dark woods, excluding Brazilian or Madagascar rosewoods.
The Conde Hermanos website, on the other hand, refers to the wood in the same models, as Madagascar
[see: http://www.condehermanos.com/portadai.htm.] but using a ‘03 label for the site, there is no reference to Caviuna in their label.

A few luthiers posting there, feel confidently that the wood shown on the Conde guitars is not Brazilian.

What is it, Brazilian, as GSI advertizes, Madagascar as Conde states, or "Caviuna" as the label recorded?

[Dave Tate]

Ah, this ol' can of worms.

Neither caviuna nor Madagascar are true Brazilian rosewood (dalbergia nigra).

Feel free to contact me if you want more explanation on the Conde labels.

Regards,
Dave

[NGiorgio]

This Caviuna /Brazilian thing has probably been discussed on every guitar forum including this one (a few years back).

You can believe one or the other or perhaps both. 1. IMO, after the big bust in Spain a few years ago, the term Brazilian rosewood is a no no. So, placing the word caviuna on the paper work and/or the label prevents problems when the guitar is exported.

2. Also, perhaps it is the wood dealers way of avoiding the wrath of the government.

Caviuna seems to be the popular word for any "brazilian appearing" tonewood which is available today, especially from South America.

Brazilian rosewood is grossly overrated in my opinion and there are so many alternative tonewoods available that it really doesn't matter. However, stating that a guitar is made from brazilian when it in fact is not, which was/is a very common practice in Spain, is just outright dishonest.

Buyer beware.

[Michelob]

Brazilian rosewood is grossly overrated in my opinion and there are so many alternative tonewoods available that it really doesn't matter. However, stating that a guitar is made from brazilian when it in fact is not, which was/is a very common practice in Spain, is just outright dishonest.
Buyer beware.

'couldn't agree more... i didn't buy mine moved by the "brazilian" connotation, at all. but i just would love to know what it is, no brazilian rose, most would agree.

[Francisco Vega]

Few weeks ago, I crossed a US border for a gig with my BR guitar. I was stopped (first time) by the customs agent who wanted to have my papers on the guitar. My guitar is BR made in Mexico, however, the rosette is abalone. The guard was asking for the abalone, not the BR. However, few months ago, a famous violinist was left in the airport because she had not cleared her violin (she could not fly to Korea). Definitely, the bow was made of a protected Brazilian species. So, do not buy BR at all. Most factories are trying to rename their BR with othe weird names. However, Customs is watching, and there may be someone telling... Mr. Michelob, did you buy a fake BR? Did they take you again? Was it Bellucci again?

[Michelob]

Mr. Michelob, did you buy a fake BR? Did they take you again? Was it Bellucci again?

yes, it i my curse, isn't it. 'taken again: i was "caviune'd".

However, ithis time i did not buy it specifially for the BR and i love the Conde AF/25R whatever wood it is made of.

However yet, there is something undoubtedly unsettling, Francisco, i can't deny that i find the all affair somehow disturbing.

[Francisco Vega]

Remember: Not all that glitters is gold!

Diamonds are rough before someone polishes them.

And remember, that my dream was to be a priest one day, until few years ago, I discovered what many priests do.

Like my jewish friend told me once: trust no one my friend.

[tanolonco]

hey are my thoughts on the matter.

1. i am somewhat surprize about the violinist being detain. somehow i doubt if it was the wood the bow was made of since the wood of choice for bows is pernambuco (i hope i got the spelling correct) which is only categorized in the CITES appendix II (D. nigra is appendix 1) and therefore is not restricted. however, many bows have abalone or MOP in the handle and this may have the reason. given the violinist was famous i suspect she owned a very expensive bow (i have seen some in price that makes a fleta seem inexpensive) which most likely (say 99% ) was made from pernambuco.

2. my issue with brazillian rosewood is not the alleged great musical tone but rather the upcharge and those who sell "fake" d. nigra but include the upcharge.

case in point. i just made a batch of brazillian rosewood cejillas that i had to charge an additional amount of money to my distributor because brazillian rosewood costs me more--both in the actual price of the wood and the shipping cost to me (i have to special order it). whoever buys one of them can rest assure they are getting the real deal.

i have some wood in stock that has similiar coloration/figure that of d. nigra, had i used that wood but sold it as d. nigra with the upcharge then i would be committing fraud and the customer would be out the upcharge amount. true, for a cejilla it would be a few dollars, but for a guitar where the upcharge is around $1000, that is quite a bit a money. in both cases, fraud is fraud.

the flip side of this is that the wood i purchased could be in fact bogus d. nigra which means not only am i out of money but i am now selling bogus d.nigra which soils my reputation. i am fortunate that my supplier has been honest with me on the wood i purchase. other folks, sadly, have not been so lucky.

the moral of this tale? if you purchase an item and you get that item as sold and you are OK with the price, then great. however, if you buy something, pay the upcharge, but get an item that is not what you paid for then you have every right to be pissed and the seller should be flogged.

3. dave tate is correct. around march 2006 there was a brutal thread about guitars will alleged brazillian rosewood. as i recall i threw in my two cents. i am a little surprized the lesson from that episode did not stick and g.s.i. did not use cadviuna in the description, rather, they used brazillian rosewood which is known to be d. nigra.

[Michelob]

Tonolonco...? are you good ol' Keith? There cannot be two such wood maniacs carving cool cejillas around here... ;-)

Good points as always. GSI wouldn't advertize brazilian rosewood 'less it felt it could confidently so describe it. And this begs the question, vastly answered in the negative, is this Br. rosewood worth all the problems it generates because of CITES restrictions, while it can also crack -not if but when, as Brian Richardson, once reminded me- and sounds as good as indian rosewwod or many other varieties?

I liked to think of my Conde as a madagascar rosewood instrument, that is how the supplier (Conde Hermanos) describes it. Now i know it could be one of three things, Caviuna, Madagascar or Brazilian... which is to say "spruce top and pretty dark wood for Back/Sides" but it sounds great, and that is all that should matter after all !!

[tanolonco]

G.....yep it be me. a couple of years ago i created this name to do posts when i was "on the clock". when the new forum format started a few months ago it would not let me on under keith but rather under my 9-5 name.

as to brazillian rosewood. yes it is pretty, especially the stump wood which makes for pretty cejillas and pens, but i think it is way overrated as a tone wood, at least the remaining legal stock, in that the supply of great d. nigra dwindles with each guitar made. we all have our favorite wood, etc. mine happens to be cocobolo but i absolutely love the smell of d. nigra--sort of a chocolate mole' sauce aroma.

my issue with brazillian rosewood has not been the upcharge or the proneness to cracking as those characteristics, via a reputable person, are known up front. my issue has always been the person who sells a wood or a wood product, viz., a guitar, that is not d.nigra but yet charges the upcharge under the guise that the wood is d. nigra.

michelob, you are absolutely correct with your statement that the sounds is what really matters. that said, my issue with conde negra guitars is that one cannot see the famous conde "safety orange" over the rosewood....just joking.

is true d.nigra worth it? depends on the person i guess. is a violin bow worth $26,000 (there is one on line going for that amount) or even more? is a iwc mark xv worth it when a $50 timex will do? i guess it boils down to the person. but be it an iwc watch or conde guitar or a timex watch, the important things is that what is advertised and what is expressed before the purchase is what you get.

by the way, i just completed and sent to my distributor my 270th cejilla--in only 4 years. last year was my best year in part due to this great guy in n.y.c. who has inspired me to stretch out a little with my product....

i have a new guitar support being tested by a professional classical guitarist and i am awaiting feedback. my first prototype was reviewed by this professional as well as aaron green the great luthier we all know and i made some changes based on their thoughts as well as some new inspiration. this new prototype is all wood and eliminates a lot of the problems with the single attachment point supports (such as gitano, efel) and pillows such as the dynanette (sp?). if all goes well it will be in production very soon

[NFalla]

i guess you
missed this
thread??

http://www.guitarsalon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10658

[Michelob]

i guess you
missed this
thread??

http://www.guitarsalon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10658

The missing link... thank you N.

[tanolonco]

here is the REAL missing link--the diatribe from spring 2006

http://www.guitarsalon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8054

[Michelob]

here is the REAL missing link--the diatribe from spring 2006

http://www.guitarsalon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8054

wow.. that was way before my time (as the more affordable price quoted indicate). Very interesting thread. Yet the issue remains somehow unsettling.... don't you think?

[NGiorgio]

[QUOTE=Michelob;112347]Tonolonco...? are you good ol' Keith? There cannot be two such wood maniacs carving cool cejillas around here... ;-)

Actually, there are two of us. I sell mine on Ebay.

[tanolonco]

michelob: well to revive the chimp and kid analogy: if i go to the circus and pay big bucks i want to see bonzo riding around on the trike eating a banana. i can see human kids doing the same for free (at least when it is warm). you are correct but since this has topic has been done before it feels like we are sawing the same old board...brazillian rosewood that is...but is that board d. nigra or d. stevensonii grown in brazil?

to revisit tim m's post, yes i do believe g.s.i. is not pulling, or trying to pull, the wool over people's eyes. i think it is more of an issue of language. the guitar is what it is and is priced what it is

[NFalla]

Actually, there are two of us. I sell mine on Ebay.


cool!!
a link please.:cool:

[NGiorgio]

cool!!
a link please.:cool:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200283476887&ssPageName=STRK:MESO:IT&ih=010

One of the last ones sold in '08.

Gotta start a new batch soon ...........

[NFalla]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200283476887&ssPageName=STRK:MESO:IT&ih=010

One of the last ones sold in '08.

Gotta start a new batch soon ...........

lookin' good!!
thanks nick!!
;)8)

[Michelob]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200283476887&ssPageName=STRK:MESO:IT&ih=010
One of the last ones sold in '08.
Gotta start a new batch soon ...........

yes, another wood-carvin' maniac... ;-)

but lovely work.

I have been looking for one with inlays, i see them frequently on youtube video, black with mother of pearl inlaid cross or flower on each side of the peg. Any suggestions?

[NFalla]

http://www.flamencoshop.com/capos/home.htm

[NGiorgio]

yes, another wood-carvin' maniac... ;-)

but lovely work.

I have been looking for one with inlays, i see them frequently on youtube video, black with mother of pearl inlaid cross or flower on each side of the peg. Any suggestions?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=360118966562&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=023

Perhaps this Ebay seller may be able to help you with something like that. ;-)

[Michelob]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=360118966562&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=023

Perhaps this Ebay seller may be able to help you with something like that. ;-)

Thank you, NGiorgio "close... but not cigar".
I am off to Madrid next week for a short business trip. I will visit a few local tiendas de guitarra. no intention to acquire any, but a cejilla or two may calm my appetite and be a sweet consolation prize!!

[NFalla]

I have been looking for one with inlays, i see them frequently on youtube video, black with mother of pearl inlaid cross or flower on each side of the peg. Any suggestions?

aaaahheeemmm!!!
http://www.flamencoshop.com/capos/home.htm

http://www.flamencoshop.com/capos/cejillas/woodenCejilla_diamond.jpg

[NFalla]

I am off to Madrid next week for a short business trip. I will visit a few local tiendas de guitarra. no intention to acquire any, but a cejilla or two may calm my appetite and be a sweet consolation prize!!

ahem again!!!
http://www.condehermanos.com/portada.htm

[Michelob]

aaaahheeemmm!!!
http://www.flamencoshop.com/capos/home.htm

http://www.flamencoshop.com/capos/cejillas/woodenCejilla_diamond.jpg

Fantastic, thank you NFalla, this is exactly it!!!
i owe you a cigar.

really, thank you. i had searched every wrong place, and gave up.

[NGiorgio]

Thank you, NGiorgio "close... but not cigar".
I am off to Madrid next week for a short business trip. I will visit a few local tiendas de guitarra. no intention to acquire any, but a cejilla or two may calm my appetite and be a sweet consolation prize!!

It looks you found it. Those are beautiful cejillas. I think you may be able to find a few interesting cejillas in Madrid. Perhaps a new guitar as well. :-)

Enjoy the trip.

[Michelob]

It looks you found it. Those are beautiful cejillas. I think you may be able to find a few interesting cejillas in Madrid. Perhaps a new guitar as well. :-)

Enjoy the trip.

Thank you Ngiorgio.

I shall certainly visit the notorious and much discussed Conde Hermanos shop on Felipe V. 'want to see them brothers at work.

Another Guitar....No... no... no ... (picture a wife's index finger moving in that counter pendulum negation gesture)

[Francisco Vega]

... I shall certainly visit the notorious and much discussed Conde Hermanos shop on Felipe V. 'want to see them brothers at work....

Mich: Are you going to Madrid or to Valencia? I bet you are going to come back with another factory guitar from the Condes!

[Michelob]

Mich: Are you going to Madrid or to Valencia? I bet you are going to come back with another factory guitar from the Condes!

ha ha ha... lol... maybe i should visit both sites and catch them in flagrante delicto...

as i said, no more guitars for now, but if i could afford another one it would be a Manuel Reyes, maybe when GSI pays us to post here.
ciao, FV.

[Michelob]

aaaahheeemmm!!!
http://www.flamencoshop.com/capos/home.htm

http://www.flamencoshop.com/capos/cejillas/woodenCejilla_diamond.jpg

'just purchased the article and exchanged some fun correspondence with the store-keeper, a retired UK lawyer devoted to Flamenco culture.

[Tony Hyman]

That dose looks very fancy made for minimal damage as you said in the other even a work of art in its own right in my opinion.Just a bit on the nostalgic
side .I remember my dearly departed Father who used to take a pencil and some string and wind the edges across the back till he got the correct pressure .Evidently this is how he passed the time in the trenches of of North
Africa and Italy in World War 11 .I dont think music shops were so easilly available under those conditions.So you made the best of a situation if you where a guitarist come soldier in the Front Line.I never got to ask him about
strings unfortunatally.It also gose to show that Wars regardless of there obvious destructive elements do bring out the most ingenious alternatives that man can cunjure up when under those pressures.

[Michelob]

Just a bit on the nostalgic
side .I remember my dearly departed Father who used to take a pencil and some string and wind the edges across the back till he got the correct pressure.

Well, although i am not old enough to have served in any war (and hopefully too old for the unfortunate current ones) I did exactly as your father discovered. Preferably a square-edged pencil, we tied with a couble of rubber bands.

Growing up in the early seventies, in the tight economy of what yet was a fast growing Italy, set the "necessity" which mothers ingenuity, and one would learn to husband one's resources.

My older brother and I shared a guitar, and would never change strings until they finally snapped. We would not cut the excess strings after stringing, because we were lucky if the strings broke closer to the bridge and the remaining length would allow enough material to pull and ristring the same.

Accessories were a luxury, only a few could afford, and i was not one of them. Everytime i pick up my now dear Conde, before i play, i always thank the Lord for the incredible gift i would have never thought....