Duende

[Francisco Vega]

Duende, a journey into the heart of Flamenco.
Author: Jason Webster - ISBN 0-7679-1166-0
-----------------------------------------------------
Has anyone here read this book?
Michelob, I just finished reading it in two days, and kept you in my mind while reading it. I am sure you will enjoy it. You will understand a lot more they gypsie culture, and the real duende.
I think that anyone who plays flamenco or believes plays flamenco should read this book, a true lesson.

[Michelob]

Duende, a journey into the heart of Flamenco.
Author: Jason Webster - ISBN 0-7679-1166-0
-----------------------------------------------------
Has anyone here read this book?
Michelob, I just finished reading it in two days, and kept you in my mind while reading it. I am sure you will enjoy it. You will understand a lot more they gypsie culture, and the real duende.
I think that anyone who plays flamenco or believes plays flamenco should read this book, a true lesson.

'honored to be in your thoughts. Such earnest advice, how could i not get a copy? Seriously, i appreciate your suggestion, francisco.

[Todd]

Great book.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Todd,

Dude, that is an amazing, yet perplexing quote! What is meant by it? "Tone" and "context" are difficult things to discern on here.

[Todd]

Todd,

Dude, that is an amazing, yet perplexing quote! What is meant by it? "Tone" and "context" are difficult things to discern on here.


Just being silly. :)

[NFalla]

Nice book and i love reading almost anything i can get my hands on about anything................BUT honestly nothing compares to the "Real Thing"............if ya get my drift peeps.;)

i personally find all these books on flamenco a little lacking and "Over Romancing" what really "IS"........

But a entertaining read none the less..........

[Great Googly Moogly]

Just being silly. :)That is funny! LOL

[tanolonco]

i found webster's book to be ok but nothing i would recommend. it seemed to me he was trying to hard to impress the reader and the book came across to me as a cliche. i was not that impressed with the book.

i think a great book about flamenco is dorien ross' book, "returning to a". dorien, by the way is a female which adds an interesting twist in that she went to spain to learn from diego del castor. pohren's book, "a way of life", is another great book.

personally i get a little tired of the word, duende, being bantered about--especially by people who know the word but have not lived the word or experienced something otherworldly. it reminds me of shamanic drumming which basically involves a bunch of middle age people who have no idea what shamanism really is (other than reading a book) banging on a drum with no sense of rhythm and sounding like a second rate cowboy and indian movie when the indians are preparing for war.

[NFalla]

i found webster's book to be ok but nothing i would recommend. it seemed to me he was trying to hard to impress the reader and the book came across to me as a cliche. i was not that impressed with the book.


That's pretty much how i feel about any book/artical written about flamenco............;)

They are "entertaining" though.............but far from anything true............in the deepest sense........they all seem to be Far to Romanticized.........at least for me.8)

[Francisco Vega]

An advise for those commenting about the book without reading it: Read it.
This is a fictional book that could have been happening in reality,as the author states. However, my point about critizing it is not from the duende. We learned a lot about the people he associated with.
I personally have a critique and desagree with the morality of the author and some of the decisions he made. However, the picture he presented on the life of the modern Spain is pathetic and real.
BTW, there is nothing romaticized in that book

[NFalla]

An advise for those commenting about the book without reading it: Read it.
This is a fictional book that could have been happening in reality,as the author states. However, my point about critizing it is not from the duende. We learned a lot about the people he associated with.
I personally have a critique and desagree with the morality of the author and some of the decisions he made. However, the picture he presented on the life of the modern Spain is pathetic and real.
BTW, there is nothing romaticized in that book

i read it!!!......???;)........it's romanticized buddy!~!

[Francisco Vega]

i read it!!!......???;)........it's romanticized buddy!~!

Thank you Mr. Faya:

Can you tell me what was the second job of his best friend Jesus, and what was the name of Jesus' girlfriend?

Also, who sold the cocaine to his friend in Madrid?

Also, what did he say when the police stopped him for speeding one night?

What did Vicente think about his wife's grandmother?

[NFalla]

Again all romanticized................!!

You are not going to fool me pedro-someone else i won't mention-framer-francis.......!!!:mrgreen:

It took you long enough to re-read all that before you replied again................that's right i saw you replying before but you had to stop to make sure you had all that info right!!
And now i could do the same ........BUT!!!!

You or the company you keep don't hold any weight in "MY" book! You are nothing but a instigating trouble maker.
And as far as i'm concerned you could fall off the face of the earth.........and i wouldn't even notice.

How do you like them "romanticized" apples fer ya YOU FAKE!!!

:twisted::twisted::twisted:

[tanolonco]

mr. vega--i read the book several years ago when it first came out. i vaguely recall the incidents of moral fiber or lack thereof. the thing that struck me was this guy trying to pass himself off as "mr. duende" but it came across as a guy trying to pass himself off.....meaning that if you have "it" the reader will see it and does not need to be clubbed over the head by someone shouting that "he has it".

as to all of the "duende" stuff. the word has more implications with spiritual things than playing a guitar and producing great music. lorca mentioned the word in much the same way as plato mentioned atlantis and all of a sudden people are possessed by a ghost or they are hypothesizing about some lost civilization.


as to the questions: Jesus' girlfriend was Mary Magdalene....damn, wrong Jesus.

[NFalla]

Oh ya!!.............and stop SPAMMING my email with porn!!!!

That's right...........YOU heard me!!:mad:

[tanolonco]

faya, who is spamming your e-mail with porn?

[tanolonco]

mr. vega: i am a little perplexed by your last posts

1. spain is pathetic? how so? pathetic is a word implying less than positive things. are you stating spain is less than positive? if so, in what ways?

2. after i stated i was not that enthusized by the book and then nfalla concurred you made a sweeping statement that myself and mr.nfalla had not read the book. how did you come to that conclusion? both mr. nfalla and i stated, in reasonable terms, that we had read the book. does disagreeing with you mean that somehow we had not read the book and/or are somehow attacking your opinion?

3. you asked mr. nfalla to identify specific things about the book. may i ask why you felt the need to do that? was it to suggest that since mr. nfalla could not rattle off the answers he was somehow direlect in his book reading duties?

to be honest i do not recall specific things in the book but do have a general feeling about the book. boring (my opinion) books have that tendency. good books, on the other hand tend to make you remember a lot. for example, 13 years ago i read the book, "wicked" (the book that led to the musical) and i can tell you specific things about that book. why? because i found the book to be very good and when one reads very good books they tend to remember specifics.

[jtucker]

Tano and all the others,

I have not read the book, let me say first of all. However, I could see where some people with a long standing relationship with Spain would think it is "pathetic." I've been reading "Spain: the Root and the Flower" by John A. Crow, and it's basically a 550 page history of Spain. The author's whole premise is that Spain has an indomitable people that has very little ability to organize and unify. Granted, Spain has made progress by leaps and bounds in the past 2 decades, but there still lies that idea of provincial pride that degrades any major sense of national unity.

Now, do I think Mr. Vega and Duende were referencing the tragic lack of national unity our beloved surrogate country of Spain? Most likely not. It seems this thread has turned into an unfortunate pissing contest, anyhow...

[Great Googly Moogly]

I was kind of enjoying the "pissing contest," myself.

[Tony Hyman]

I wonder what Old Meastro Segovia would have to say about all this ,had he still been around.I think the Inquesition would look like tap on the backside in comparrison.

[tanolonco]

jtucker--just a brief comment so this thread does not get hijacked. in many ways any country could viewed as either pathetic or glorious--it really depends on whose eyes are viewing and whose hand holds the pen. i am not sure from what country you hail but the united states has a lot of provinicialism--red state/blue state; south vs. north, urban/non-urban, black/white....the list could go on. i am sure most countries have some sort of this going on.

this morning i picked up to re-read dorien ross' book, "returning to a" (the title is in reference to going from the a chord to b flat and returning to the a chord). ms. ross, who i believe is a practicing psychotherapist in n.y.c., writes in such way that she does not need to invoke the magic word, duende, yet you feel it in the book. the book in question in this thread had the opposite effect.

[jtucker]

tano,

Thanks for your insights. I agree that each country has its good and bad, especially our United States. I was merely commenting that a book I was reading really expounded that sense of tragedy in a nation of such great people.
I'm looking forward to reading both books, per recommendations and criticisms of all. Could that be the very definition of that magic word? It needs to be invoked, felt and understood. Any attempts to explain and define really suck the magic out of it?

I had no intention of hijacking anything, especially as a newcomer here...hopefully you all didn't get that idea. I was merely trying to participate in the conversation that was happening at the time.

Peace...

[tanolonco]

jtucker, per the hijack comment, it was the veering off the topic about duende and onto blue vs red states, etc. that i did not want to focus on and therefore be guilty of hijacking.

[Michelob]

What a difficult term to define, really. At the risk of being a bit obsessive, i would use one of my favorite videos on the Tube, to describe what Duende means to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCSE3b-6dyo

[Tony Hyman]

I must confess when this thread started out I didnt have a clue what the heck everyone was talking about .I thought duende was some sort of buzzie
political "issm" or other .But after reading up on the matter and listening and looking at Micheals video I get to understand a little more about spontanious
living art where the Artists and Audience are all capitivated in a spiritual dimension which defies scientific explanation .To me its almost what the Gospel Singers and Congregation do or the Songs of the Red Indians when they cry out to Nature.Its also that soul which the tribes in my country naturally summon when they sing and harmonise while doing work or some other meaningful event.

[tanolonco]

to me what people refer to as "duende" really means that they are performing in such a way that they have tapped very deep within themselves and convey those feelings in such a way that we are moved to that emotion. here are some songs, musical pieces, etc. and the way the are performed that can stir very profound feelings within us--it a way it is soul to soul communication.

here would be a good example think of janis joplin doing ball and chain from the cheap thrills album--this really conveys a tortured soul singing of her torture and conveying that emotion. then think of hannah montana doing the same piece and somehow i doubt the same emotion would come through. same music, same lyrics, but what is missing is....that thing we call duende--her soul and our soul have not connected.

[NFalla]

"Duende" can't be experienced 2nd-hand.
You're only experiencing an illusion of what it's about.
Or to put it another way.................you're fooling yourself if you think it can be experienced that way!!!
It can't be felt through books or videos.
It's a "Personal" experience...............you have to do it, be it, and feel it..............if you try to grasp it and explain it................you've only made that more elusive.
IT can't be explained and written about.

[Michelob]

"Duende" can't be experienced 2nd-hand.
You're only experiencing an illusion of what it's about.
Or to put it another way.................you're fooling yourself if you think it can be experienced that way!!!
It can't be felt through books or videos.
It's a "Personal" experience...............you have to do it, be it, and feel it..............if you try to grasp it and explain it................you've only made that more elusive.
IT can't be explained and written about.

It's ironic, NFalla, but you are the first thing (person) that comes to my mind when i think of "duende" perhaps for you were the first person i discussed this with. Hence, i respectfully submit to your view, with one proviso... i think that video i posted illustrates a state of being, musically and socially, and does so in such piercing-through-your-heart way, that when i first stumbled upon it i remember uttering instinctively... "that's duende man..."

ciao

[Dave Tate]

Anyone care to describe the difference between a flamenco musician having "duende" and a blues (or whatever) musician having "soul"?

They seem to be two versions the same basic principle - a hard-to-describe "deep feeling" of the music being played, something a musician "just has", something that can't be taught. It may come from personal experience, pain, etc., but not from a book.

~Dave

[NFalla]

Yes.........the video is definitely heart-felt..........and has a lot of emotion........
but i think that's only scratching the surface of what is meant by "duende"..............duende also refers to one's own involvement in the creation of it...........it's something of a personal experience............you have to be actively part of it to experiance it to it's full extent........this is not to say you can't feel part of it being a listener..............BUT it's still not the full effect.............

on the otherhand......."Duende" is kind of a "Magical" word and is often over romantizied about..............with no "real" participation.................

Let me put it to ya this way............
you can't really experience "life" just sitting around reading about it or watching it on TV now can ya..........????................It's not the same thing.
It's more like "day dreaming" about some notion of what is.........yet never doing it.............and this is where it becomes "Romantized".

[Michelob]

Yes.........the video is definitely heart-felt..........and has a lot of emotion........
but i think that's only scratching the surface of what is meant by "duende"..............duende also refers to one's own involvement in the creation of it...........it's something of a personal experience............you have to be actively part of it to experiance it to it's full extent........this is not to say you can't feel part of it being a listener..............BUT it's still not the full effect.............

on the otherhand......."Duende" is kind of a "Magical" word and is often over romantizied about..............with no "real" participation.................

Let me put it to ya this way............
you can't really experience "life" just sitting around reading about it or watching it on TV now can ya..........????................It's not the same thing.
It's more like "day dreaming" about some notion of what is.........yet never doing it.............and this is where it becomes "Romantized".

'can't disagree with that apporach, absolutely. what do you think of Dave's comparing Duende in Flamenco to Soul in Blues, would you draw that parallel?

[jtucker]

I think Dave's right on, especially with Blues and Gospel music, as well. There's something that gets communicated through music that transcends notes, inflections and sound. That's what everyone tries to achieve in all of their music, no matter what style. Flamencos call it duende, others call it soul, and yet others in some religious based music call it the Holy Spirit. It can be felt and observed to a certain extent, but when one is a part of creating it, that's where the magic happens.

I have the feeling that it really only comes out in communal settings, when people are interacting with each other. It could be several performers together, or a performer and his/her live audience. I don't feel like it can really happen via recording...

What do you all think?

[NFalla]

i think it's a fairly good analogy...........

Both Blues and Flamenco as well as other gypsy music.......yada yada yada.
definitely have a similar history of pain and suffering, with strife...............and the social climate of a supposed "Superior Class" of people putting them down as "sub-human" or "inferior" and not worthy of a better way of life..........all definitely are in there.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Anyone care to describe the difference between a flamenco musician having "duende" and a blues (or whatever) musician having "soul"?

They seem to be two versions the same basic principle - a hard-to-describe "deep feeling" of the music being played, something a musician "just has", something that can't be taught. It may come from personal experience, pain, etc., but not from a book.

~DaveHere's something I posted back in the Flamenco Chords thread, which I find to be yet another similarity between the blues and flamenco. (It sounds so weird to even say that since they are, of course, nothing alike on the surface.)

I find a similarity between the blues and flamenco in that they are both strict forms that need to be adhered to strictly in order to not "piss off the purists" but at the same time, there's still exists the need to "push the envelope" in order to avoid sounding too redundant.

I start by teaching my students all (I consider there to be "four") main elements of the blues. I then hand them a CD containing several blues tunes, some of which utilize all four elements, some only three, some two and some only one. I make them identify which elements are present in each tune and which are not. This not only gives them a full understanding of the blues itself, but also teaches them how to introduce various blues elements into anything they do.

[El Diablo Suelto]

Yes.........the video is definitely heart-felt..........and has a lot of emotion........
but i think that's only scratching the surface of what is meant by "duende"..............duende also refers to one's own involvement in the creation of it...........it's something of a personal experience............you have to be actively part of it to experiance it to it's full extent........this is not to say you can't feel part of it being a listener..............BUT it's still not the full effect.............

on the otherhand......."Duende" is kind of a "Magical" word and is often over romantizied about..............with no "real" participation.................

Let me put it to ya this way............
you can't really experience "life" just sitting around reading about it or watching it on TV now can ya..........????................It's not the same thing.
It's more like "day dreaming" about some notion of what is.........yet never doing it.............and this is where it becomes "Romantized".

NFalla,

I've been busy at work and can't believe I missed this thread. A real interesting thread too. I lived in Spain as a young child and I often heard the word "duende" strongly associated with flamenco. But I also heard it used in all forms of art. As I recall, "duende" was used to describe an artist's work based not just on talent, but on creative force to understand the subject matter and ability to express it through his/her art. In that sense, I do agree it is a personal experience. As far as "romantized," if you think about it, Spain's music as well as civil war has often been romantized by generations of writers.

[ssante]

to me what people refer to as "duende" really means that they are performing in such a way that they have tapped very deep within themselves and convey those feelings in such a way that we are moved to that emotion. here are some songs, musical pieces, etc. and the way the are performed that can stir very profound feelings within us--it a way it is soul to soul communication.

here would be a good example think of janis joplin doing ball and chain from the cheap thrills album--this really conveys a tortured soul singing of her torture and conveying that emotion.

Jimi Hendrix "I hear my train a comin" from Rainbow Bridge is another fine example.

[Joguitar]

.......But like sex in its highest emotional and sensitiv way between musicians and Audience in a transcendenced form.. I` ve found that feeling with many musicians in the last years..in many styles of music.....over the years..and would like to have it every day..my friends...
Joguitar:grin:

[Great Googly Moogly]

to me what people refer to as "duende" really means that they are performing in such a way that they have tapped very deep within themselves and convey those feelings in such a way that we are moved to that emotion. here are some songs, musical pieces, etc. and the way the are performed that can stir very profound feelings within us--it a way it is soul to soul communication.

Here would be a good example think of Janis Joplin doing ball and chain from the cheap thrills album--this really conveys a tortured soul singing of her torture and conveying that emotion. then think of Hannah Montana doing the same piece and somehow i doubt the same emotion would come through. same music, same lyrics, but what is missing is....that thing we call duende--her soul and our soul have not connected.This, to me, is an excellent example as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ndbPUSYDQ

[Jubilee Valence]

Ooohhhhh...........it's ON NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I've got a 4pm appt at the bar (it's where my "office" is! :mrgreen: )

In advance....any vintage flamenco artist's youtube vid that I've ever posted OOOOOOZES "duende"!!!

tbc....

"Lemmy.......", geeezzz, yer' startin' ta' sound like my evil twin Brian...

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Great Googly Moogly]

tbc....<--Does that stand for the Tabernacle Baptist Church? :twisted:

[ssante]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9yl7coyLQ&feature=related

Atlanta Pop Festival - Gainsville, Georgia

Fine example of Duende playing

[ssante]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl9NkY6_IMY&feature=related

Anyone Seen My Girl. Another great song with sooo much feeling.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRg8rgiN088

Live. Man Keb can sing

[Jubilee Valence]

Does that stand for the Tabernacle Baptist Church? :twisted:

"ARFFF!!! ARFFF!!!! ARFFF!!!!"
_____

pssst!

...to be continued.....

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Great Googly Moogly]

This is my personal favorite footage of Jimi Hendrix:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCQBbgb_Lvo&feature=player_embedded

[Jubilee Valence]

"duende" in rock??

yer' on!!!!!
(old bro's of mine in Okinawa)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiP7guNpbew&feature=related

And when the wall comes tumbling down.....
(see "tbc...." down below! ;) )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXk3OgTuGk0
____

btw those amps are set on "10"....

:mrgreen:

[Great Googly Moogly]

btw those amps are set on "10"....

:mrgreen:My amp goes all the way up to "11."

[ssante]

This is my personal favorite footage of Jimi Hendrix:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCQBbgb_Lvo&feature=player_embedded

Funny you chose this one. I almost chose it myself.

[Jubilee Valence]

"...if ya' ain't got it...."

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c27/jubiduuu123/KEEEBLERELF.jpg

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Jubilee Valence]

My amp goes all the way up to "11."

...are you EVER gonna LEARN!!!!!????

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

http://www.amplialampes.fr/images_magasin/897_image_zoom_peavey-windsor-100-head.jpg

....how ya' like me now, 'clyde!!!!?????

I was seriously looking at this Peavy Windsor vs. the Bugera 1960 until just TODAY!!!!!!!!

Guitar Center at Tempe Arizona just got in the next generation: B-52 AT-100----TWO DAYS AGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....it's ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"RRR-RRU-UUUUFFF-FFFFFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Jubilee Valence]

uhh....does "duende" = "loud..."??!!

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c27/jubiduuu123/Flamencopluggos002.jpg

...or in my case....just "insane"???!!!!

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
___
pssst! this is my old B-52....

"BOMBS AWAYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Great Googly Moogly]

...are you EVER gonna LEARN!!!!!????



http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h196/Locust777/PeaveyWindsorhead.jpg

....how ya' like me now, 'clyde!!!!?????LOL!! It goes up to 12!!! That is HILARIOUS!! You got me!! Not to mention, Spinal Tap!! Where were you when they tried to pull that routine? Too cool! :)