Graf-Martinez Totally Wrong?

[jtucker]

See the following explanation of picado in Graf-Martinez Book 2, p. 29:

"The only source of the [right hand] movement is the middle joint, never the large joint. You may well straighten and tense the large joint (knuckle) a little too much to get used to holding your hand like this... Some guitarists don't straighten the tip joint, but nevertheless execute the stroke by using the middle joint as the source of the movement."

He claims this is what gives Paco his speed and tonal qualities. Is this true? Everything I've been reading so far talks about movement from the large joint being the source of speed in the picado.

Is Graf-Martinez all wet? Does anyone play like this and do they get good results?

[Dave Tate]

I've known a lot of people to use their middle knuckle for picado, and they are blazing fast. I can't do it to save my life, I stick with the big knuckle.

As I often say, one of the beauties of flamenco is that there aren't technique police walking around ready to slap your hands with a yardstick.

Play it however you'd like, but it better sound good!

My $.02...

~DT

[jtucker]

I'll give it a try. It seems like a change in nail angle, etc. would be necessary? The complete opposite of so many other opinions completely floored me. I had to read it about 3 times just to make sure!

[oc chuck]

Pujol, based on Tarraga, says to play from a firm
fingertip, (Guitar School, paragraphs 199 & 200.)
They played with little or no nails.

For several months I took lessons from a student of
Pepe Romero who taught me to play from the
large knuckle.

I also need to play with a somewhat soft
fingertip or my nails will hook the strings
no matter how I file them.

Question: Are there players who use different
techniques for classical and flamenco?

[Dave Tate]

Question: Are there players who use different
techniques for classical and flamenco?

Yes, absolutely. My right hand is very different depending on which I'm playing, especially the thumb.

[jtucker]

To add to that, some of the tonal qualities that come from the flamenco technique would be unacceptable in the classical realm.

[Derry]

I can say I would no way consider myself a flamenco player but I can certainly obtain more speed for finger movement when using the main knuckle as the flex point,,

Derry

[Todd]

All the big boys like Paco Pena, Paco de Lucia, Gerardo Nunez, all say
"Large" knuckle.

Hard to argue with their results. But in the end, to each his own.
Its the results that count, not how you get them.
TK

[at_leo_87]

if you watch the dvd, graf-martinez himself uses the large knucles! it's an illusion.

[Mister Lovaguitara]

wow, long time no post..
anyway Carlevaro talks about developing all different strokes for different purposes, and sounds, I think that is very important to being a master player - to have as large as possible sound arsenal. I think if you practice you will naturally feel which stroke is best for what.

[tonyg]

jtucker,

Just read your note regarding the Graf-Martinez advice on picado technique. I wonder if there's a problem with the translation. I seems to me that movement of the large knuckle is inevitable and that independent movement of the middle knuckle is excess. This excess movement causes a slowing of the stroke, loss of tone quality and precicion. I've seen movement from the middle knuckle used for tirando at slower speeds, but never for picado...especially by the great players. Videos of Paco de Lucia are like a clinic on this...amazing efficiency and ease (OK, you already know this...sorry...).
Anyway, good discussion. I especially agree with the person who raised Abel Carlevaro's teaching of a wide variety of strokes, this applies to flamenco as much as classical.
Good thread.
Tonyg

[RichardM]

The main problem is the optical illusion caused by the angle you see the fingers move. From a front angle, the players that play with the middle joint bent (not straight down), appear to not move the big joint. But a side angle view will reveal that the fingers, even bent, still are powered by the big joint.

Here for example it seems that the big joint doesn't move because of the angle of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYkz30RL_GU

But here you can more clearly see how the big joint is doing the work, though the work is quite efficient! LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To09Km0y8ic&feature=related

And one more, towards the end of the video you can see the very efficient movement by the big joint, and how the middle joints just flex to reach strings on awkward crossings at 5:32:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wY78lRUQyg

Important thing to note, that the fingers are bent, in order that the tips of the m and i finger seem to be the same length. Straight fingers makes the m finger seem much longer and more awkward to do certain crossings of strings.

Ricardo

[Great Googly Moogly]

The main problem is the optical illusion caused by the angle you see the fingers move. From a front angle, the players that play with the middle joint bent (not straight down), appear to not move the big joint. But a side angle view will reveal that the fingers, even bent, still are powered by the big joint.

Here for example it seems that the big joint doesn't move because of the angle of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYkz30RL_GU

But here you can more clearly see how the big joint is doing the work, though the work is quite efficient! LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To09Km0y8ic&feature=related

And one more, towards the end of the video you can see the very efficient movement by the big joint, and how the middle joints just flex to reach strings on awkward crossings at 5:32:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wY78lRUQyg

Important thing to note, that the fingers are bent, in order that the tips of the m and i finger seem to be the same length. Straight fingers makes the m finger seem much longer and more awkward to do certain crossings of strings.

RicardoIn the third video (the tremolo section, from 0:49 to 1:23) it really does look like he's using the smaller joint, no? It looks very different than the way I normally see tremolo, it seems.

[RichardM]

In the third video (the tremolo section, from 0:49 to 1:23) it really does look like he's using the smaller joint, no? It looks very different than the way I normally see tremolo, it seems.

The mechanics of free stroke (tirando) are different than picado and apoyando, which is what I was trying to show with the vids. When doing free stroke, you follow through obviously, upwards by curling the fingers. "Making little fists" I think is how scott tenant put it...that is the way we play guitar when we pluck the strings. Still the actual strokes are powered mainly by the big joint. To truely play from middle joint, the big joint needs to remain fixed....a very strange feeling but it can be done.

Here is the difference. Put your hand on the table, your nails touching the table, now move like you are playing arpegios or scales, but keep your nails touching the table, don't lift them. That would be how you pull at the strings from middle joint. Now do the same but let your nails lift off and "tap" on the table as you do arps or scales. That is how the Big joint is used to power your strokes. Hope that makes some sense.

[Great Googly Moogly]

The mechanics of free stroke (tirando) are different than picado and apoyando, which is what I was trying to show with the vids. When doing free stroke, you follow through obviously, upwards by curling the fingers. "Making little fists" I think is how scott tenant put it...that is the way we play guitar when we pluck the strings. Still the actual strokes are powered mainly by the big joint. To truely play from middle joint, the big joint needs to remain fixed....a very strange feeling but it can be done.

Here is the difference. Put your hand on the table, your nails touching the table, now move like you are playing arpegios or scales, but keep your nails touching the table, don't lift them. That would be how you pull at the strings from middle joint. Now do the same but let your nails lift off and "tap" on the table as you do arps or scales. That is how the Big joint is used to power your strokes. Hope that makes some sense.Oh yes, it makes perfect sense. I steer clear of using the smaller joint when I play and teach my students to do the same. But it is true, though, right, that Paco is using the smaller joint in this section? And if Paco is doing this, I know it has to be right. (Unless I'm wrong and this is some sort of optical illusion, as you were saying.) In some of Juan's recordings from the 60's, I noticed his tremolo is involving two strings. (Even though he is tremoloing on the 1st string he drags his fingers across to strike the 2nd string at the same time.) Apparently, he's achieving this by using the smaller joint as well. The effect is very cool. When I asked him about it, though, he just said that he "didn't care so much about playing clean back then." I thought that was funny! I guess my problem is that I never thought of the there being three types of attack but only thought on terms of free stroke and rest stroke.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Important thing to note, that the fingers are bent, in order that the tips of the m and i finger seem to be the same length. Straight fingers makes the m finger seem much longer and more awkward to do certain crossings of strings.That was very valuable, too. Thanks for that tip, Richard.

I hope this thread doesn't die and that I get some feedback on my previous post. I think (hope) that my post shows that I'm on track with what Richard is talking about here.

[Jubilee Valence]

"HEY!!!!" (watch me..) WINK!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Iq0Qs0GAI)

watch the whole thing....

not much confusion with camera angles....you could see this guy even in the dark!!!
:mrgreen:

[Great Googly Moogly]

Thanks for that, Jubi! I LOVE that Malaguena! It's my favorite one. I'm glad his video is up again because for a time, it was removed for copyright violation. I hope it stays, now, so that some day I can use the video to learn it.

[Y-2-H]

Whatever flamenco technique Paco is using, what really gives him is unmatched speed is that he’s talented. And yes I do believe it looks that Paco is playing like this.

[claflafan]

What Martinez mentions is not a typo. Doing picado from the large joint with straight fingers is said to be the old or original style of playing picado. The modern style uses the middle joint, of course your large joint still participates but is not the main part of the action, your fingers are not straight. You can see Vicente and Paco play like that as well as others on Youtube.
The reasons are that, apparently, you can attain greater speed with the modern technique but in addition, and this one is more obvious, you don't have to move your hand position when changing from picado to arpegio and vice versa, thus reducing movement and allow more continuous playing.
For sure, trying to play from middle when used to playing from the large joint is not obvious, and takes practice, which was my case.

[Todd]

What Martinez mentions is not a typo. Doing picado from the large joint with straight fingers is said to be the old or original style of playing picado. The modern style uses the middle joint, of course your large joint still participates but is not the main part of the action, your fingers are not straight. You can see Vicente and Paco play like that as well as others on Youtube.
The reasons are that, apparently, you can attain greater speed with the modern technique but in addition, and this one is more obvious, you don't have to move your hand position when changing from picado to arpegio and vice versa, thus reducing movement and allow more continuous playing.
For sure, trying to play from middle when used to playing from the large joint is not obvious, and takes practice, which was my case.


That is completely incorrect. Just about any major guitar instructor or guitar conservatory will tell you, the large joint is always used for freestroke, and reststroke, including picado. (Which is slightly different than classical reststroke) The middle joint is flexed, but does not move by itself. It is moved by the large joint. You can not move the string effectively with only the middle joint. Physics do not permit it. Using only the middle joint, you will end up with a slightly upward "pluck". You want a downward "stroke".

Its like a constant battle to fight the bad information that permeates the internet. It really sucks.
TK

[Tom Blackshear]

All the big boys like Paco Pena, Paco de Lucia, Gerardo Nunez, all say
"Large" knuckle.

Hard to argue with their results. But in the end, to each his own.
Its the results that count, not how you get them.
TK

Todd, I use my middle to perform almost all of the right hand techniques but to get serious for a moment, this takes a huge amount of time practicing it this way, until finally, it just comes to you. This is not for players who want to dabble in this arrangement, as it takes a lot of time in the initial stages to train your fingers. It hurts a lot and if you are older than a teenager, I would not recommend it.

[claflafan]

Todd
A little aggresive aren't we?
To make this short, this is flamenco, not classical. I have no clue what the conservatory teaches. But in flamenco, large knuckle is old style and with reason only due to performance and speed, as typical to flamenco.

And if what I wrote is wrong then so is Graf and Oscar Herrero, and Paco, and Vicente, you should all write them too.

[Great Googly Moogly]

The mechanics of free stroke (tirando) are different than picado and apoyando, which is what I was trying to show with the vids. When doing free stroke, you follow through obviously, upwards by curling the fingers. "Making little fists" I think is how scott tenant put it...that is the way we play guitar when we pluck the strings. Still the actual strokes are powered mainly by the big joint. To truely play from middle joint, the big joint needs to remain fixed....a very strange feeling but it can be done.

Here is the difference. Put your hand on the table, your nails touching the table, now move like you are playing arpegios or scales, but keep your nails touching the table, don't lift them. That would be how you pull at the strings from middle joint. Now do the same but let your nails lift off and "tap" on the table as you do arps or scales. That is how the Big joint is used to power your strokes. Hope that makes some sense.I don't know if you're still floating around here, Richard, but looking back over your post and watching the videos again, I realize now that I was missing what you were saying. In the third video (the tremolo section), there is more of a follow-through with the smaller joint than I'm used to seeing but it is the large joint that is being used, as you said.

All of this talk about using the middle joints is fine and dandy but can someone just simply post a link to a video of someone using this technique? People have said here in this thread that Paco promotes the use of the middle joint but I have yet to see him actually implement this himself in any of his videos. Seeing is believing, no?

[claflafan]

Here is Herrero teaching picado, it's in Spanish, in the end, the last 2 sentences hes says are... always play picado from the middle joint, playing from the large joint would be an error.
Personally, I think it's just a different style but in any case, today, this is the method being pushed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGNf3yZaJAQ

Watch the picado of Paco in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5TRBQ_arZo
At time 2:20, after doing arpegios, he runs through a picado, it's beautiful, he barely moves his hand.

Watch the picado of Vicente in this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oC387yN61I&feature=fvst
Not the best view but his hand his straight and bends at middle joint.

There is some picado here to, hand relatively straight working from middle joint. A few passes at 1:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g0RHA0PEgo

Not to say Vicente only uses his middle joint, in other videos he uses both but never straight fingers like our entertaining friend Mario shows here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q75n73w8KbQ

[Great Googly Moogly]

Here is Herrero teaching picado, it's in Spanish, in the end, the last 2 sentences hes says are... always play picado from the middle joint, playing from the large joint would be an error.
Personally, I think it's just a different style but in any case, today, this is the method being pushed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGNf3yZaJAQ

Watch the picado of Paco in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5TRBQ_arZo
At time 2:20, after doing arpegios, he runs through a picado, it's beautiful, he barely moves his hand.

Watch the picado of Vicente in this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oC387yN61I&feature=fvst
Not the best view but his hand his straight and bends at middle joint.

There is some picado here to, hand relatively straight working from middle joint. A few passes at 1:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g0RHA0PEgo

Not to say Vicente only uses his middle joint, in other videos he uses both but never straight fingers like our entertaining friend Mario shows here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q75n73w8KbQ I feel bad for Richard because I can see now that his post here turns out to be the final word on the whole discussion and yet many people aren't able to see or hear what he's saying.


The main problem is the optical illusion caused by the angle you see the fingers move. From a front angle, the players that play with the middle joint bent (not straight down), appear to not move the big joint. But a side angle view will reveal that the fingers, even bent, still are powered by the big joint.

Here for example it seems that the big joint doesn't move because of the angle of view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYkz30RL_GU

But here you can more clearly see how the big joint is doing the work, though the work is quite efficient! LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To09Km0y8ic&feature=related

And one more, towards the end of the video you can see the very efficient movement by the big joint, and how the middle joints just flex to reach strings on awkward crossings at 5:32:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wY78lRUQyg

Important thing to note, that the fingers are bent, in order that the tips of the m and i finger seem to be the same length. Straight fingers makes the m finger seem much longer and more awkward to do certain crossings of strings.

Ricardo

Thanks for the links, claflafan, but they clearly show that it is the large knuckle that's being used. I don't speak Spanish but if Herrero actually did say to "always play picado from the middle joint, playing from the large joint would be an error" then that is strange since this is not what he's doing. Middle joint bent? Yes. Bent and frozen in place with all movement coming from the large knuckle. Same with Paco and everyone else. Very little movement in Paco's video, yes, and all of that movement is coming from the large joint. I don't even have good picado and I'm not a flamenco guitarist. My picado is terrible but I'm still glad I was able to participate in this discussion because I've learned a ton!

[rogeliocan]

The last 2 posts, and Richard's were very interesting.
I too wondered about Graf's comment on the picado and using the middle joint. From watching him play he does not seem to do that himself.
Looking at Herrero's video above, claflafan is right that he says to use the middle joint but as noted above, that's not what he does. He may be using his middle joint a bit but most certainly, he is using his big joint.

I find this very confusing that both of these guys do something different then what they are saying, maybe they are just not saying it correctly. After reading the last post and Richard's I think it would be clearer to say exacly that, play with your large joint but with bent fingers.
And claflafan, you said it yourself for Vicente, he also uses his large joint... turns out they all do.

In any case that clears this up for me, I had given up on trying to do the middle joint thing, I'll try and with bent fingers.
Thanks all

[rogeliocan]

As you may know Mr. Graf-Martinez has a web site with an FAQ section and judging by the content, he is very good at answering questions so I asked him about picado referring him to this thread and here is his answer:

yes I (we) know those postings. Please read here:
http://www.graf-martinez.com/flamenc...ex.html#picado

Again, I would like to thank Mr. Graf-Martinez for his answer and for (in my personal opinion) his great work and what I believe to be the best introductory flamenco technique material out there.

[NGiorgio]

Dead link for me.

Would like to read the response, though.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Yeah, dead link for me, too.

[rogeliocan]

Sorry, the link does not work for me either, somehow the full link gets truncated (the three dots you see) when it's within the 'url' HTML tags in the forum.

www.graf-martinez.com/flamenco-guitar/players/index.html#picado

if it does not work here it is without the www. in front (this way the forum won't automatically force the 'url' tags on it. Just copy to the address bar and add www. in front.

graf-martinez.com/flamenco-guitar/players/index.html#picado