Paco de Lucía, the only innovator of contemporary flamenco guitar

[rubendiaz]

Paco de Lucía, the only innovator of contemporary flamenco guitar

by Prof. Ruben Diaz
Ph.D. Contemporary Harmony
and Composition


http://www.rdiaz.org/rdpacoart.html

[Todd]

Yeah, and Segovia was the only innovator of classical guitar.

Ruben, You are not the least bit interested in anybody's opinion but your own. You even contradict and insult Paco's life long friends and family.
You have identical posts on every guitar forum in existance.

You are beyond annoying, and at this point, you have reduced
yourself to a common troll/spammer.
Please go away...

[ssante]

Paco de Lucía, the only innovator of contemporary flamenco guitar

by Prof. Ruben Diaz
Ph.D. Contemporary Harmony
and Composition
http://www.rdiaz.org/rdpacoart.html

There have been many innovators. Geraldo Nunez, Tomatito, Carlos Montoya, Juan Serrano, Pepe Romero, etc. However no one would say that Paco is not a living legend now and the pride of Spain. Certainly he deserves much praise. I myself have seen him in concert 3 times.

For that matter Sabicas was an innovator as he brought Classical Techniques to Flamenco Guitar.

[tanolonco]

ssante, i would not argue with you about your choices except for one--carlos montoya. had you said ramon montoya i would have agreed 100%. as to carlos....see the plethora of posts about him from the previous years.

ramon montoya is actually credited as being the principal person who brought classical techniques to flamenco. sabicas is considered to be....well, god! sabicas is the person who brought solo performance playing to a stratospheric level...and paco took it into outer space.

other innovators would have to include nino ricardo and paco pena.

[jtucker]

It sounds like Ruben is only interested in validating his job as professor of flamenco. While PDL is definitely a seminal figure, I think it's an insult to claim he is the only person after Nino Ricardo, Ramon Montoya, and Sabicas to have innovated.

While academic studies of flamenco are nice, they are not essential, nor are they a better solution to a traditional method of learning the art.

Can someone just ban Ruben, or his "publicity people?" If he is indeed an expert as he claims, it would be nice to have his candid input on any number of subjects we've enjoyed in these forums. However, he or his proxies have not contributed one bit to this forum other than the posts he has created to grace us with his presence as "Disciple of Paco de Lucia."
Furthermore, his "explanations" that he puts on his website are just him playing a piece fast, then playing it slow in chunks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that pretty much how the traditional way of guitar teaching has been since the dawn of time?
This forum is about discussion, which he does not participate in. It's just plain annoying.

[GlissandoMusic]

There have been many innovators. Geraldo Nunez, Tomatito, Carlos Montoya, Juan Serrano, Pepe Romero, etc. However no one would say that Paco is not a living legend now and the pride of Spain. Certainly he deserves much praise. I myself have seen him in concert 3 times.

For that matter Sabicas was an innovator as he brought Classical Techniques to Flamenco Guitar.

Actually, none of the people that you mentioned were innovators, they kept with the traditions of Flamenco. Extreme traditionalists. That's not a bad thing.
It's just what they did.
Paco on the other hand has thickened the harmonies and added elements of jazz(chords and improvisational aspects). The only other flamenco player to really continue Paco's style is VICENTE AMIGO.
Amigo has played with Paco on various occasions-look on youtube.

Ottmar Liebert and Jesse Cook are clowns who just play e phrygian minor scales really fast and call it flamenco. And non flamenco listeners are amazed by these posers calling them innovators.

[Jubilee Valence]

...ahhhhh..to the good ol' days!!!! :mrgreen:

Yep, it seems like just yesterday when Carlos Montoya presented his INNOVATIVE 1951 Marcelo Barbero to his best'st buddy in the whole wide world, Sabicas, who used to sit with the gang front row center at all of CM's shows....

I fer'get which show it was where he handed it over but those were the good ol' days!! :mrgreen:

And in this context perhaps "innovative" may also include Carlos Montoya sitting down with Marcelo & redesigning the blanca to best enable all the "innovative" techniques that he was bringing to the world at large....(yeah, ok, like the 60 second legatos...;) )

Yep.....it's been awhile since a flamenco player and his stool filled the Houston Astrodome, eh boys?!

& let's not fer'get Manitas de Plata (who hung out with & inspired the likes of Picasso & Dali....which guy named him?? hmmnnn...oh! & Bridgett Bardot!! yikes!!)

And we ain't goin' nowhere without Diego del Gastor...

"rasguedos", anyone?
:twisted:
-me
ps. I love this town!
WINK!!!!!

[ssante]

Actually, none of the people that you mentioned were innovators, they kept with the traditions of Flamenco. Extreme traditionalists. That's not a bad thing.
It's just what they did.
Paco on the other hand has thickened the harmonies and added elements of jazz(chords and improvisational aspects). The only other flamenco player to really continue Paco's style is VICENTE AMIGO.
Amigo has played with Paco on various occasions-look on youtube.

Ottmar Liebert and Jesse Cook are clowns who just play e phrygian minor scales really fast and call it flamenco. And non flamenco listeners are amazed by these posers calling them innovators.

I politely disagree regarding my list of folks. There were traditional yes but also extended the motif in their own ways. For instance Juan Serrano combined flamenco music with World and Jazz genre's on multiple occasions and recordings. Geraldo Nunez CD "Jucal" while cemented in Tradition also explores Jazz elements of style and technique. However I do agree the no one explored this as fully a Paco who certainly broke the mold in a major way.

I agree regarding Ottmar Liebert and Jesse Cook. Though many folks like their music and I certainly think thats great.

The upside though is that many guitar players have been exposed to Ottmar Liebert or Jesse Cook due to their popularity and exposure. This has been great for many Spanish Flamenco Artists as there exposure in the USA has increased as a result of this.

[sanderdude]

I was fortunate to have known all the Gastors once upon a time. Regarding these jazzy current players all I can say is "Deme arcadas con una cuchara"

[rubendiaz]

One thing is Science,and another is someone opinions.
In the research field, it counts only, and it is accepted only, what can be shown objetively with proves,and facts,and not any other subjetive opinion or view,this is the standard for the academic format.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Example:
As Mr Jtucker was saying: ¨Furthermore, his "explanations" that he puts on his website are just him playing a piece fast, then playing it slow in chunks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that pretty much how the traditional way of guitar teaching has been since the dawn of time?¨

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proves and Facts:

Here I present for him, and for all the respectable audience of the guitar salon forum, a demo of an explanation on the academic format,wich is the very PROVE that defeats his argument against me, and I would like to make clear that my desire of sharing findings and research work with you all,is NOT SPAM,but LOVE FOR THE GUITAR.
Here is the lesson,please kindly check it, and see for yourself:

Performance and explanation of Paco de Lucia's tangos
“La Estiba” from “Paco de Lucia, John McLaughlin and Al di Meola” album (Track 1) I hope you enjoy it!

http://www.rdiaz.org/rdvideo22.html

http://www.rdiaz.org/rdvideo23.html

Att:Ruben Diaz.

[Todd]

One thing is Science,and another is someone opinions.
In the research field, it counts only, and it is accepted only, what can be shown objetively with proves,and facts,and not any other subjetive opinion or view,this is the standard for the academic format.
Regards:R.diaz.

See what i mean..... Ruben doesnt care what you say or think.

Only HE matters. Only what HE does holds any meaning.

Do you get it now??

Ban this idiot.

TK

[tanolonco]

Mr. Diaz: I believe the word you wanted to use was "proof(s)" not "prove(s)". I am puzzled as to what your objective is when you throw out sweeping sophmoric statements. Are you trying to start a debate? If so then I would suggest you temper your statement and/or put it in question form; viz., "I think Paco is and would like to hear other folks' opinions...." or "Do you folks think Paco.....?" Believe me, I think folks will take you more seriously. You state you are a professor and I am non-plussed to figure out how you became a professor without learning and applying some very basic concepts related to educating others.

Todd: I think going forward the best thing we all can do if Mr. Diaz continues to act in the manner that he has is to ignore him.

Jubi: I have not heard the story of Mr. Montoya sitting down with Marcelo Barbero and offering ideas about guitar making. Mr. Montoya is known for minimal action and downtuning to make his strings that much easier to play but short of that I have not heard any input into that guitar. I am going back to Boston in a few weeks and will be visiting my bud Aaron Green and I will ask him about that. As to filling the Astrodome, true he did but Liberaci (sp?) filled similar halls and I doubt if he would qualify as a classical pianist in the same league as first rate classical pianists. He was an entertainer of the first rank but not a classical pianist of the first rank. Same holds true for Carlos Montoya. As to de Plata? Oh Puhhhhhlease!

[Jubilee Valence]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGHtM_A_ofs (a la Dali!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoQHyD1f_bk (and Breeegeeet Bar'rrrdot! la Juerga!! and not a "capo" in the crowd!! ;) )

EDIT! add: "manitas de clap'pas!!!!" ole!!! WINK!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viONc_LDZxw


here's a typical "master class..." http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e312/kookystrat/LC-UNK-92.jpg

...Liberace?!

yeah he can sure tickle the ol' ivories....amongst other things.....snicker snicker....but I ain't goin' there!!! yikes!!! :mrgreen:

Yep! Aaron's the MAN!! His buddy in New York has "thee blanca", right?

Jeeeezzzzz, that guitar must have more mojo than any other one in this Galaxy!!?? ;)
______

Hey sanderdude! Thanks for that!!

Isn't there a "grandson" (?) of Diego del Gastor's up around 'Frisco who teaches?

When you folks get the chance, sit in the same room with Dave Tate while he does a DdG rasguedo-----"bbrr-r-r-r-r-rrrr!!"

It'll give you the shivers!!!!

It's incredible how some people can actually nail that...

I've never seen/heard anybody do it like that....whewww!!
____

Hey Ruben....ever heard of any of these guys???
sheeessshhhhh.......

[aarongreen]

Actually, none of the people that you mentioned were innovators, they kept with the traditions of Flamenco. Extreme traditionalists. That's not a bad thing.
It's just what they did.
Paco on the other hand has thickened the harmonies and added elements of jazz(chords and improvisational aspects). The only other flamenco player to really continue Paco's style is VICENTE AMIGO.
Amigo has played with Paco on various occasions-look on youtube.

Ottmar Liebert and Jesse Cook are clowns who just play e phrygian minor scales really fast and call it flamenco. And non flamenco listeners are amazed by these posers calling them innovators.


I would have to disagree about Sabicas not being an innovator as well. His compositions at the time were to "traditional" flamenco as the compositions of Villa Lobos are to "traditional" brazilian folk music. How one defines innovator is of course a large part of who gets placed in that category. Even with Ramon Montoya playing solo concerts in the 30's, flamenco was about the cante and baile more than the guitar. Ramon Montoya, Nino Ricardo, Sabicas, Escudero, all broke away from that in their own fashions, which makes them innovators in my book.


The story I heard in regards to the Barbero and Sabicas is he (Sabicas) was playing gigs at a club called "La Zambra" which was owned by Carlos Montoya. One way or another he got the guitar from Montoya, maybe in payment for some gigs. Fidel Zabal acquired it from Sabicas in return for transcribing some of Sabicas' music, as Sabicas could not read or write music or anything else for that matter. Zabal sold the guitar to my client in the late 50's as my client was to take Zabal's place on tour. I seem to recall that Zabal's wife just had a baby or something like that. Anyways my client was offered his choice of a Santos or the Barbero. He chose the Santos. When he came back with the money Zabal had reconsidered and only offered him the Barbero. My client was none too pleased but he bought it anyways. Took it home in a paper bag, on the bus, no less. In the end my client's mother put the squash on his professional musical aspirations and he went to medical school instead of going on tour. Worked out in the end as he is a very successful and famous doctor. Hell of a nice guy too, one of my favorite clients.

Interestingly enough the guitar was his beater, beach guitar etc.. He never humidified it nor really looked after it. It lived in a closet for many, many years until he started taking lessons from Dennis Koster. When Dennis saw the guitar he told him to have Brune look at it. Richard was in town for the Spanish exhibit at the Met back and gave a lecture at the now defunct American Institute for Guitar (west 54th st. around the corner from the Dave Letterman theater). Richard took on the restoration, made the connection and the rest is history.

[Pepe Vergara]

... Took it home in a paper bag, on the bus, no less....

Great piece of history. This could have been the bus Rosa Parks was riding on! :)

[ssante]

ssante, i would not argue with you about your choices except for one--carlos montoya. had you said ramon montoya i would have agreed 100%. as to carlos....see the plethora of posts about him from the previous years.

ramon montoya is actually credited as being the principal person who brought classical techniques to flamenco. sabicas is considered to be....well, god! sabicas is the person who brought solo performance playing to a stratospheric level...and paco took it into outer space.

other innovators would have to include nino ricardo and paco pena.

Yes I was very remiss in not stating Ramon Montoya. Agreed 100% and certainly Nino Ricardo and Paco Pena as well. Sabicas in my opinion encapsulated bringing Classical Techniques to Flamenco. The "Flamenco Puro" cd is a fine example. He also did fabulous duets with Mario Escudero.

[Sandra]

Ruben, You are not the least bit interested in anybody's opinion but your own. You even contradict and insult Paco's life long friends and family.
You have identical posts on every guitar forum in existance.

You are beyond annoying, and at this point, you have reduced
yourself to a common troll/spammer.
Please go away...

Can someone just ban Ruben, or his "publicity people?" If he is indeed an expert as he claims, it would be nice to have his candid input on any number of subjects we've enjoyed in these forums. However, he or his proxies have not contributed one bit to this forum other than the posts he has created to grace us with his presence as "Disciple of Paco de Lucia."

This forum is about discussion, which he does not participate in. It's just plain annoying.
I have to agree with both of you. Ruben is just using this forum to pimp his own agenda.

However, his posts do manage to stir up the pot and get people posting. ;)

[Pepe Vergara]

Has anyone read doctor Diaz's paper? Could you address the issues on the paper you do not agree with, so we can understand your comments and rebuttal?

[jtucker]

My major problem with the article (not with Ruben... I've already brought those up) is that there is no context at all. Mr. Diaz tells us the dates of the recordings on which he found the PDL pieces in question, but he doesn't give any dates for the others. Right there, he does nothing to prove that PDL came up with such and such an idea FIRST, being THE innovator. Just because someone uses a chord that PDL recorded maybe around the same time or even 10, 20, 30 years before does not mean that this other person is not innovative. It's just not logical.

There are reasons that people like Tomatito and Vicente de Amigo are so successful. People don't say, "Wow, that guy sounds just like Paco de Lucia. I'm going to buy his CD." They have done something unique, and created something in their sounds that set them apart from others, including PDL. Ruben plays very well, much better than I do, but he doesn't innovate. He either plays PDL or stuff that sounds just like PDL.

PDL was the first SUCCESSFUL flamenco guitarist to combine jazz harmonies with flamenco, but does that mean he didn't hear it somewhere first or get an idea from a colleague? He also wasn't the first flamenco guitarist to collaborate cross-genre with other musicians: Sabicas recorded with jazz rocker Joe Beck in 1970. PDL's first recording with John McLaughlin wasn't until 1981. Now, was Sabicas' record as good as Paco's? Not by a long-shot, but often times the first tries don't aren't that great. How many rockets did we blow up before we landed a man on the moon?

Furthermore, with the oral tradition-like nature of flamenco or any folk music, it's silly to claim that, because a person first recorded something, they were the sole person responsible for that "innovation" in music. Musical ideas are not linear; they can happen in several places with several different people at once. I find it hard to believe that a Ph.D in Contemporary Harmony and Composition does not understand the organic and dynamic nature of the transmission of musical ideas.

It seems Ruben has very passionate opinions and love for the music of Paco de Lucia. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he isn't just using PDL's name to boost his credibility in the academic music world, which frankly doesn't know crap about flamenco. However, I think his personal bias has clouded his ability to make a sound academic argument. His logic is flawed, and the "proof" that he gives to support his naive and under-researched claims isn't that convincing.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Has anyone read doctor Diaz's paper? Could you address the issues on the paper you do not agree with, so we can understand your comments and rebuttal?I did read it and thought it was quite good, myself. I thought he developed the point that Paco may be the first to introduce most, if not all, of what makes up contemporary flamenco guitar today, when you trace it back. The thing is, is that to be an "innovator" in flamenco is kind of daring, anyway, isn't it? The tricky thing is, is that Paco (like anyone else who tries to branch away from the traditional flamenco) caught a lot of flack from the purists, right?

The other players mentioned here (of the generation before Paco) were innovators too, though, and probably to a much bigger degree since they were the ones who helped turn flamenco guitar into a solo performing concert instrument, whereas before that, it had only been used for accompanying dancers and singers. The point Ruben was making, I thought, was that Paco was the one responsible for taking it from where the others had left off, making flamenco what it is today?

Anyway, credit where credit is due, I always say. Ruben's approach is a little rough, to be sure.

And by the way, I'm not a flamenco player as those here who know me already know. I know someone who is, though, and who definitely knows what he is talking about. He's away on vacation right now. When I talk to him next, I'll ask him about this.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Jtucker,

That post of yours (right before mine) is very good! I hadn't read it until after I had posted mine. I'm gonna have to come back later and read it over more thoroughly, now.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Wow, man. Great post! Really. Your response said it all, I think.

[Jubilee Valence]

:twisted: TK

:twisted:

:twisted:


I have to agree with ">XXX-XXX-XXX-XXX<" of you. Ruben is just using this forum to pimp his own agenda.

However, his posts do manage to stir up the pot and get people posting.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e312/kookystrat/pic15201.gif

(guys, ever since day one....what's more dangerous than a canary with a machine gun???!!! huh??? huh??!!!)

A: Catgirl with a AK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Great Googly Moogly]

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e312/kookystrat/pic15201.gif
Love that GIF! :)

[Jubilee Valence]

:mrgreen:

[rubendiaz]

I think you should read ,and try sincerelly to understand what I said in the article first,and then talk,and comment.
Namely:


The importance of technique and knowledge
All the above mentioned leads to the conclusion that a genuine flamenco guitar player should have a deep knowledge of the essential principles and codes of flamenco music, a solid foundation in harmony and theory of music and a strong technique.
There are several misconceptions that most of flamenco guitar players have:
1. That one will lose the “aire” if he/she studies music theory, harmony and technique.
2. That flamenco is a cryptic art that can be deciphered only if one belongs to the gypsy community, to the flamenco community or to the Spanish community.
3. The top most one: That one can play flamenco music like Paco de Lucia did, without having formal studies of technique, harmony and theory of music.
Misconceptions 1 and 2 can have several causes, some of them could be:
1. The gypsy community was a marginal population and, as such, they considered the flamenco, which is an essential part of their culture and identity, as “sacred” and “exclusive” of their people. It was a way to protect their identity, their culture. But, o course, flamenco was also one of the most important elements of Andalusian culture and the interaction between non gypsy flamenco artists (payo) and gypsy artists existed. The common point was that flamenco artists where a marginal, poor sector in Andalusian society and were at the service of the rich community as entertainment.
2. When the flamenco became widely known in the world in the first half of the last century (especially in United States) and became a good business, it was vital to keep a close secrecy about the essential principles of flamenco disguising it as “the mystery of the duende” in flamenco. Although there is a mystic part in flamenco art regarding the spontaneous way to improvise in singing, dancing and guitar performance, formal studies of technique and harmony will not affect negatively to the “aire” or “feeling” of a flamenco artist, opposite, they will enhance, enrich and bring him/her to a higher level in which flamenco ends to be a folklore from Spain to become one of the highest and most beautiful artistic manifestations ever known.
Regarding misconception 3: It’s amazing how Paco de Lucía could carry out all his innovations without having formal studies, as he has declared many times that he is a self-taught guitar player. But it’s evident that only a genius could do what he has done and, as such, his case can not be considered as a standard one. Paco de Lucia himself don’t support the idea that a flamenco guitar player should not carry out formal studies to acquire a solid theoretical and technical musical foundation, all the apposite. There are many facts to prove it, some of them are:
1. The fact that the University of Cadiz granted him the Doctorate Honoris Causa and his accepting it supports this point for two reasons: A) A formal academic spanish institution recognized that Paco de Lucia’s work was worth of academic studies and that Paco de Lucia is a very knowledgeable personality in the music field. B) That flamenco contemporary music is not a folkloric manifestation but a vast field of musical knowledge. C) In his speech accepting the Doctorate Honoris Causa, Paco de Lucia manifested that it was not his choice to be a self-taught musician but he was by the force of the circumstances, namely, the precarious economical situation of his family at that time (as it was common for flamenco artists and his father was one of them). He himself manifested in his speech: “Some times I have felt the need to learn how to learn…”
2. The fact that knowledgeable musicians from other music styles -all of them with a vast foundation of musical technique and knowledge- have composed music specially for Paco de Lucia (like Touchstone Suite by Chick Corea in 1983), and many of them have played with him his own compositions as well as theirs (like John McLaughlin, Chick Corea, Al di Meola). Through all these colaborations with other artists Paco de Lucia came in contact with the vast world of contemporary music and this knowledge was an important factor in his innovations.
3. Paco de Lucia’s own research and experimental labour with classic works like Concierto de Aranjuez by Joaquin Rodrigo and Manuel de Falla’s repertoire, giving to them a “flamenco” approach of interpretation.

Flamenco contemporary music is, thanks to Paco de Lucia, a great field for musical creation which doesn’t belong to a specific culture anymore, but to humanity.

[Great Googly Moogly]

The last line in Ruben's post there brought to mind that famous quote from the Hindenburg disaster: "Oh, the humanity."

[Todd]

I think you should read ,and try sincerelly to understand what I said in the article first,and then talk,and comment.
Namely:


The importance of technique and knowledge
All the above mentioned leads to the conclusion that a genuine flamenco guitar player should have a deep knowledge of the essential principles and codes of flamenco music, a solid foundation in harmony and theory of music and a strong technique.
There are several misconceptions that most of flamenco guitar players have:
1. That one will lose the “aire” if he/she studies music theory, harmony and technique.
2. That flamenco is a cryptic art that can be deciphered only if one belongs to the gypsy community, to the flamenco community or to the Spanish community.
3. The top most one: That one can play flamenco music like Paco de Lucia did, without having formal studies of technique, harmony and theory of music.
Misconceptions 1 and 2 can have several causes, some of them could be:
1. The gypsy community was a marginal population and, as such, they considered the flamenco, which is an essential part of their culture and identity, as “sacred” and “exclusive” of their people. It was a way to protect their identity, their culture. But, o course, flamenco was also one of the most important elements of Andalusian culture and the interaction between non gypsy flamenco artists (payo) and gypsy artists existed. The common point was that flamenco artists where a marginal, poor sector in Andalusian society and were at the service of the rich community as entertainment.
2. When the flamenco became widely known in the world in the first half of the last century (especially in United States) and became a good business, it was vital to keep a close secrecy about the essential principles of flamenco disguising it as “the mystery of the duende” in flamenco. Although there is a mystic part in flamenco art regarding the spontaneous way to improvise in singing, dancing and guitar performance, formal studies of technique and harmony will not affect negatively to the “aire” or “feeling” of a flamenco artist, opposite, they will enhance, enrich and bring him/her to a higher level in which flamenco ends to be a folklore from Spain to become one of the highest and most beautiful artistic manifestations ever known.
Regarding misconception 3: It’s amazing how Paco de Lucía could carry out all his innovations without having formal studies, as he has declared many times that he is a self-taught guitar player. But it’s evident that only a genius could do what he has done and, as such, his case can not be considered as a standard one. Paco de Lucia himself don’t support the idea that a flamenco guitar player should not carry out formal studies to acquire a solid theoretical and technical musical foundation, all the apposite. There are many facts to prove it, some of them are:
1. The fact that the University of Cadiz granted him the Doctorate Honoris Causa and his accepting it supports this point for two reasons: A) A formal academic spanish institution recognized that Paco de Lucia’s work was worth of academic studies and that Paco de Lucia is a very knowledgeable personality in the music field. B) That flamenco contemporary music is not a folkloric manifestation but a vast field of musical knowledge. C) In his speech accepting the Doctorate Honoris Causa, Paco de Lucia manifested that it was not his choice to be a self-taught musician but he was by the force of the circumstances, namely, the precarious economical situation of his family at that time (as it was common for flamenco artists and his father was one of them). He himself manifested in his speech: “Some times I have felt the need to learn how to learn…”
2. The fact that knowledgeable musicians from other music styles -all of them with a vast foundation of musical technique and knowledge- have composed music specially for Paco de Lucia (like Touchstone Suite by Chick Corea in 1983), and many of them have played with him his own compositions as well as theirs (like John McLaughlin, Chick Corea, Al di Meola). Through all these colaborations with other artists Paco de Lucia came in contact with the vast world of contemporary music and this knowledge was an important factor in his innovations.
3. Paco de Lucia’s own research and experimental labour with classic works like Concierto de Aranjuez by Joaquin Rodrigo and Manuel de Falla’s repertoire, giving to them a “flamenco” approach of interpretation.

Flamenco contemporary music is, thanks to Paco de Lucia, a great field for musical creation which doesn’t belong to a specific culture anymore, but to humanity.


WE GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PACO IS GREAT< AND YOU KNOW EVERYTHING AND YOU PLAY BETTER THAN EVERYBODY< AND YOU KNOW MORE THAN EVERYBODY. YOU ARE RIGHT AND EVERYBODY"S WRONG EXCEPT PACO BECAUSE HE"S A GENIUS>
OK WE GET IT!!!!!!

NOW FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IN HEAVEN, WILL YOU PLEASE SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY AM I YELLING AT A SPAMBOT???

[Andy0815]

WE GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PACO IS GREAT< AND YOU KNOW EVERYTHING AND YOU PLAY BETTER THAN EVERYBODY< AND YOU KNOW MORE THAN EVERYBODY. YOU ARE RIGHT AND EVERYBODY"S WRONG EXCEPT PACO BECAUSE HE"S A GENIUS>
OK WE GET IT!!!!!!

NOW FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IN HEAVEN, WILL YOU PLEASE SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY AM I YELLING AT A SPAMBOT???

I recognise this is not a forum for the faint hearted!

[Pepe Vergara]

Dr.Diaz: have you done any research on the contributions to flamenco by those two well-known players: Carlos Montoya and Manitas de Plata? While many of the old folks I know praise their play, others refer to them as not playing flamenco. Since academy is not common around here, we have always discussed following the gut feeling each one of us has, some more than others. If you have not researched them, could you still tell us what is your take on their playing as it relates to traditional flamenco, nuveau flamenco, and flamenco in general. I appreciate your input.

[jtucker]

So he just re-posted/re-stated the conclusion to his article, without engaging in the actual conversation. Seriously, where did this guy get his Ph.D? Sam's Club? Even if he is using publicity people as he claims, no self-respecting academic would dare let his/her name be put on the crap (written, not playing. He's a great player) that's been put on these forums.

Assuming that his harmonic analysis is sound (again, giving him the benefit of the doubt) I've seen better arguments and support in second year BA music theory/history papers. Some people made the remark about English not being his first language, blah blah blah. His grammar isn't the problem. The idea of soundly supporting an argument is the same in any language.

I think I'm more annoyed that academia has allowed this guy into it's midst just on the merits of being a good player...

[ssante]

I think you should read ,and try sincerelly to understand what I said in the article first,and then talk,and comment.
Namely:


The importance of technique and knowledge
All the above mentioned leads to the conclusion that a genuine flamenco guitar player should have a deep knowledge of the essential principles and codes of flamenco music, a solid foundation in harmony and theory of music and a strong technique.
There are several misconceptions that most of flamenco guitar players have:
1. That one will lose the “aire” if he/she studies music theory, harmony and technique.
2. That flamenco is a cryptic art that can be deciphered only if one belongs to the gypsy community, to the flamenco community or to the Spanish community.
3. The top most one: That one can play flamenco music like Paco de Lucia did, without having formal studies of technique, harmony and theory of music.


Lets talk abit about 1-3. I will attempt to be brief and this reflects my personal experience and observations.

1. I doubt anyone would arque that studying music theory, harmony and technique will cause one to lose "aire". However, studying all of the above will not always give one "Aire" or the ability to extend the "Genre" or domain. IMHO this is a gift one is born with.

2. I certainly agree that Flamenco is not a cryptic art and can be studied and well played by lovers of the art. However, I would also say their is something to be said regarding growing up in a culture that lives and breathes Flamenco. There is a certain emotional knowing and expressivity that comes with the terrain. This is what the term authentic means. Can someone acquire this insight and dynamic coming from the outside. Most likely by spending time playing with fabulous Flamenco players, dancers and singers.

3. Here is the big one. Many innovators in various Musical Genre's did not possess formal educations: Jimi Hendrix is a fabulous example. But Jimi's education came from the "chitlin circuit" and playing with alot of other players and learning the chops and techniques day in day out and constantly jamming. But of course Jimi was an "innovator" and took the Blues to a whole different level. That cannot be taught. Thats what I mean when I say "you either have it or you don't".

Just the same there are many great players who have superlative technique but cannot compose and/or improvise, but they can sure play a fabulous rendition of a famous composition and express their emotional insight. That in itself if quite an accomplishment.

PDL is an innovator and has the gift. So did Sabicas and so did Jimi. There are also many innovators who are highly trained such as: Egberto Gismonti, Ralph Towner, XueFi Yang, and many others.

[rubendiaz]

Art is not a pastime but a priesthood. (Jean Cocteau)

Without tradition, art is a flock of sheep without a shepherd. Without innovation, it is a corpse. (Winston Churchill)


Great innovators and original thinkers and artists attract the wrath of mediocrities as lightning rods draw the flashes. (Theodor Reik)

Practically all great artists accept the influence of others. But... the artist with vision... by integrating what he has learned with his own experiences... molds something distinctly personal. (Romare Howard Bearden)

Be careful that what you write does not offend anybody or cause problems... The safest approach is to remove all useful information. (Scott Adams)

The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot. (Salvador Dali)

Minorities are the stars of the firmament; majorities, the darkness in which they float. (Martin Fischer)

If you do not express your own original ideas, if you do not listen to your own being, you will have betrayed yourself. Also, you will have betrayed your community in failing to make your contribution. (Rollo May)

All good things which exist are the fruits of originality. (John Stuart Mill)

What I have to do is utilize as best I can the ideas which objects suggest to me, connect, fuse, and color in my way the shadows they cast within me, illumine them from the inside. And since of necessity my vision is quite different from that of the next man, my painting will interpret things in an entirely different manner even though it makes use of the same elements,if it is too divergent the artist has the bigger job of educating his audience to enjoying the works of true originality.
Every really new idea looks crazy at first.
We are all born originals – why is it so many of us die copies?...
Good art is not what it looks like, but what it does to us (Pablo Picasso)

[aarongreen]

This is science?

[Pepe Vergara]

.... If you do not express your own original ideas, if you do not listen to your own being, you will have betrayed yourself. Also, you will have betrayed your community in failing to make your contribution. (Rollo May) ...

This is the one I like the most, you use other people's quotes to express your own original ideas.

[tanolonco]

Aaron, actually science was involved in Mr. Diaz's post. Science gave us the internet to load Bartlett's Familiar Quotations so anyone can access the contents of said book and then post "artsy" quotes to make themselves look oh so "professorial".

Mr. Diaz, it behooves you to understand in your mind what you want to say and how you can best verbalize your thoughts so that your audience will respect what you say rather than perceive you as a jerk. Here is a quote you can use: "The wise artist knows that if he disrespects his buying public he will die a poor and starving artist."

As a side note, from your 3 points about misconceptions it seems to me you are trying to justify your self perceived "brilliance" since you have studied music and did not grow up in some "inner circle" of gypsies, flamencos, etc. and that your audience would somehow discount you for the 3 points you mention. Seems to be you should re-read your quotes about following one's own path whatever it may have been.

[rubendiaz]

I apologize if someone was upset. I don’t want to be misunderstood nor do I ever pretend to offend anyone, as I said, I feel honored to be one more of many in this forum, an aficionado, and friend. My only intention is to share what I know, and also learn from all of you many wonderful things.

So having said that let me clarify some points:


I don’t pretend to use Paco’s name, or something like that, I just like his line or style and I will tell you the reasons for this: my mother was a great flamenco dancer, her name is Carmen Diaz, she still teaches in “Amor de Dios” in Madrid. Let me tell you, the story is that in the 60’s she danced in the tablao “Los Canasteros” in Madrid along with Manolo Caracol, who was the owner by the way, and he is still considered as one of the greatest flamenco singers of all times. Anyway, the thing was that my mother dance then in that tablao as a soloist, and Paco was one of the guitar players there. At that time he was not famous or something like that, so I know Paco by family connection since, more or less, 25 years ago and I considered him my preceptor or Guru at heart since many years. I just like him …. . and I respect players who don’t like him or his style, but, you know, this is like marriage or being in love, only you can tell who YOU like and who you don’t like. So I decided to follow his line under his personal guidance for the last 20 years, and I did achieve some nice results, and others were not so nice…… So I will love to share with you all, only the good ones, and if you like them, otherwise you can kick me out at any time from this forum……its just a joke! I hope, you will never do so; as I said, I Iike friendships and human relationships whenever I have time, so please try to tolerate me … I am not so bad……you know that we Spanish peole are a bit, or better o a double bit to passional, and creasy , so I appreciate a lot your patience in this regard.

I clarify too that I am not, and will never dare to imitate Paco de Lucia artificially. I am not that good at the guitar to do so, I have many wholes and weak point areas and I know that I will never be successful at imitating him.
So, the thing is that my opinions and views are valid perhaps only for me, I do never try to impose them on others, all the opposite, I like variety, because for me beauty comes from variety, I like diverse music, diverse guitars and diverse guitar players of all styles.

Now let me tell you something regarding the Paco de Lucia’s techniques issue. The example of buleria-tapado (muted guitar for buleria) like the one on “Almoraima” track, for example, is an innovation CREATED by Paco and not a standard flamenco technique. The prove of this is that before the -lets say- “Paco de Lucia’s Era”, I mean before the 1979 , it didn’t exist at all and, therefore, no one has used it nor for accompaniment, neither in buleria.

For example the tapping with ring finger with the sole flesh, which I explained in the tapado buleria video that I posted in the forum, didn’t exist before Paco too; the rasgueo: Ring finger- down-Index down-Index up to interpret melodies with it –as I showed in the video that I posted in the forum- is another innovation by Paco.

The anadido or extention of the buleria compass, I mean from 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 to the added, viz. 1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10.11.12.--7.8.9.10.on the ending of the cante corto de jerez measure which Camaron De la Isla singed in Vivire record as an example, or to speak of an specific track: the “Bulerias de la Perla” from the album “Calle Real” is another innovation by Paco de Lucia, and I am afraid that to establish what is standard techniques and what is Paco de Lucia’s techniques we have to PROVE what we are saying, otherwise those would be just empty words, put forward to maybe do some politics, or because of envy, but it can not being taken seriously by any scrupulous, objective and scientific researcher and/or knowledgeable guitar practitioner.

Flamenco guitar is not a religion is rather a science, and in science we have to prove things. So, if you or anyone else who want to take the challenge can PROVE the opposite argument, namel, that these are standard techniques, and, therefore they should not be called Paco de Lucia’s techniques, I would be happy to accept my misconception immediately. I challenge in a very friendly way and with the sole purpose of learning more about flamenco guitar and nothing else. I kindly ask you to PROVE it by showing here in public, in the forum, a video or a bonafide recording of any guitar player using the above mentioned techniques and innovations; that is, you would have to post a video or an official bonafide recording, that everyone can accept as bonafide or internationally known , like a Sabicas album or something of the time, that is before the 1979 period which is considered by musicologists and scholar researchers around the world as the Paco de Lucia’s period or era.

So I hope you can find that PROVE to support your statements, and, beforehand I thank you for the opportunity you give me to honor, one more time, the name of my preceptor and friend Maestro Paco de Lucia. I kindly invite you to, at least, consider the possibility that I am right in calling these techniques as they should be called , that is after the name of their inventor. Just because some fellows who are not aware of the FACTS do not give the proper credit to Paco de Lucia for the unscientifically and erroneously called “standard techniques”, this does not mean that Paco de Lucia’s techniques are actually “standard techniques” I really don’t think that any one can prove the contrary or the opposite of this, but, if this is the case, I am willing to accept my mistake, in that case, from that day on I will never again called or named these techniques as Paco de Lucia’s techniques, but that will happen (and forgive my skepticism) only and, and only, if you can PROVE that I am wrong by posting the videos or recordings previously mentioned. In that case I will even demand an answer from Paco about why he cheated me telling me that those were his innovations and contributions to the evolution of the history of flamenco guitar. Perhaps I would also consider the possibility of accepting YOU as my teacher instead of him, but my only condition in that first I HAVE to see the PROVES:
As I said, I am not a fanatic, I prefer Science and science means PROVES and facts, instead of opinions, or rumors. But if you can defeat my argument I will be so grateful with life, and with you , that I learn something more…. I would like to quote an statement by Miles Davis which is in one of his documentaries in youtube he said that “For me happiness is when I learn something. That is happiness for me” I hope that you also like this phrase by Miles.

Good luck.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Ruben, Ruben, Ruben!

What in the world are you doing?! Man, these posts of yours here are great but how many times will you keep making multiple posts after Dave tells you not to? What is with that, man? You're ruining your message by showing no respect!!

[Todd]

Eventually, Dave will realize Ruben is a complete mental case, and he
will be banned. Its only a matter of time.

This has already happened on several other forums. :)

The guy is totally off his rocker. lol

[Dave Tate]

Eventually, Dave will realize Ruben is a complete mental case, and he
will be banned. Its only a matter of time.

This has already happened on several other forums. :)

The guy is totally off his rocker. lol

I'm getting there, I'm getting there, believe me. I just can't help but be lenient if it's at least relevant to guitar.

[Pepe Vergara]

... my mother was a great flamenco dancer, her name is Carmen Diaz, she still teaches in “Amor de Dios” in Madrid. Let me tell you, the story is that in the 60’s she danced in the tablao “Los Canasteros” in Madrid along with Manolo Caracol, who was the owner by the way, and he is still considered as one of the greatest flamenco singers of all times. Anyway, the thing was that my mother dance then in that tablao as a soloist, and Paco was one of the guitar players there. At that time he was not famous or something like that, so I know Paco by family connection since, more or less, 25 years ago and I considered him my preceptor or Guru at heart since many years. I just like him …. .

I knew you were special since I read your first post.

[Great Googly Moogly]

my mother was a great flamenco dancer, her name is Carmen Diaz, she still teaches in “Amor de Dios” in Madrid. Let me tell you, the story is that in the 60’s she danced in the tablao “Los Canasteros” in Madrid along with Manolo Caracol, who was the owner by the way, and he is still considered as one of the greatest flamenco singers of all times. Anyway, the thing was that my mother dance then in that tablao as a soloist, and Paco was one of the guitar players there. At that time he was not famous or something like that, so I know Paco by family connection since, more or less, 25 years ago and I considered him my preceptor or Guru at heart since many years.It is VERY cool, no doubt.

[Jubilee Valence]

...mr.todd... blah blah...


The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot. (Salvador Dali)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGHtM_A_ofs


....my vision is quite different from that of the next man, my painting will interpret things in an entirely different manner even though it makes use of the same elements....

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e312/kookystrat/LC-UNK-92.jpg

sheeeeeeshhhhh........


ok, puro boy....(TK :mrgreen: )

...all I wanna know is this.....

>>----> How come YOU get the big artsy-fartsy lecture....

& "I" get the lame IP address bit.... huh??!! HUH???!!!! :mrgreen:

...never mind....I love ya'.....puro boy.....

btw 'Diaz, here's something ya' DON'T learn in school....

"Churchills..."

...vino....

cejillas..."

...so stick around kid, ya' might learn something......
:twisted:

ps..lose the capo, gadje boy

and....

"speed DO COUNT!!!!!!!!!!!"

heh heh heh.........

[rubendiaz]

Respected Pepe Vergara:Thank you for your kind message,I appreciate your education and sincere interest in flamenco,let me answer to your nice questions as follows.
I would not say that manitas de plata or carlos Montoya are not flamenco, or the don’t play good,the thing is that the are not counted on the list of people I analized because, they were not considered liders or innovators on the flamenco field by Sabicas etc, if this were the case Sabicas would have said they are important but he did not mention it,and also we can say that they would have shown to the guitar world some new techniques,like different rasgueos,different ritmic approaches,harmonies etc,to be part of the history of the flamenco guitar one HAS to contribute with something that wasn’t there before then he will be considered as creating or starting a new line, example: there is not such a thing like a ‘Manitas de plata line’ on the guitar, where are the guitar players and the generations of guitar players who got influence by him on they artistic creations?........and where are those creations or recordings?......, and further innovation following the footstaps of Manitas?........,there is not such a thing , and where is the guitar player lider these days that carry out the mission of expanding or developing the ‘Manitas de plata line’ on the guitar,there is not shuch thing…….thats why he is not considered an historical authority on guitar,Sabicas never accepted him and Sabicas himself was consider an authority on the matter,due to his contribuitions etc. So the thing is that PACO DE LUCIA,is more than evident for his contribuitions and because of the influence he caused not only on the flamenco guitar, but he influenced even players of other stiles like Al di meola or John Mc Laughlin,or even players if other instruments like Chick Corea,this proves that Paco is someone that certainly can and did influence other players, this is the point.
Just like Santos Hernandez,Barbero, are considered in the erudite circles of luthuers like Maestro Arcangel Fernandez,etc,as innovators ,this is NEVER BIASED or because of some ones opinion IS PURE SCIENCE that’s the beauty of luthiership………….also we can say that smallman or the sound portal inventor, are also innovators, to say this is not cheap as the opinionateds cheap statements with no ground.

I also have to admit that in the article I presented the analysis according to what Paco personally advised me to do,I did not write it whimsically or because, I like or I dont like this or that,or because a good friend of mine like this or that,you see?..............,although some people is very upset with me like Mr.todd he has to even go to the limit of writing in a mesagge to me on this forum : Ruben you should have a life…….because he himself does not have a life besides to criticize
and envy scholars like me or Paco De Lucia ,here now I will prove to you Mr Vergara that Paco himself is a Doctor and he does approve academic and serious approach see link, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3N0BKCoD6s
I understand why this people are angry with me, and that is: Because their sand-castle of being a Guru of flamenco guitar is falling apart, on the light of all this scientific and academic research about flamenco and Paco,please read this.
The importance of technique and knowledge
All the above mentioned leads to the conclusion that a genuine flamenco guitar player should have a deep knowledge of the essential principles and codes of flamenco music, a solid foundation in harmony and theory of music and a strong technique.
There are several misconceptions that most of flamenco guitar players have:
1. That one will lose the “aire” if he/she studies music theory, harmony and technique.
2. That flamenco is a cryptic art that can be deciphered only if one belongs to the gypsy community, to the flamenco community or to the Spanish community.
3. The top most one: That one can play flamenco music like Paco de Lucia did, without having formal studies of technique, harmony and theory of music.
Misconceptions 1 and 2 can have several causes, some of them could be:
1. The gypsy community was a marginal population and, as such, they considered the flamenco, which is an essential part of their culture and identity, as “sacred” and “exclusive” of their people. It was a way to protect their identity, their culture. But, o course, flamenco was also one of the most important elements of Andalusian culture and the interaction between non gypsy flamenco artists (payo) and gypsy artists existed. The common point was that flamenco artists where a marginal, poor sector in Andalusian society and were at the service of the rich community as entertainment.
2. When the flamenco became widely known in the world in the first half of the last century (especially in United States) and became a good business, it was vital to keep a close secrecy about the essential principles of flamenco disguising it as “the mystery of the duende” in flamenco. Although there is a mystic part in flamenco art regarding the spontaneous way to improvise in singing, dancing and guitar performance, formal studies of technique and harmony will not affect negatively to the “aire” or “feeling” of a flamenco artist, opposite, they will enhance, enrich and bring him/her to a higher level in which flamenco ends to be a folklore from Spain to become one of the highest and most beautiful artistic manifestations ever known.
Regarding misconception 3: It’s amazing how Paco de Lucía could carry out all his innovations without having formal studies, as he has declared many times that he is a self-taught guitar player. But it’s evident that only a genius could do what he has done and, as such, his case can not be considered as a standard one. Paco de Lucia himself don’t support the idea that a flamenco guitar player should not carry out formal studies to acquire a solid theoretical and technical musical foundation, all the apposite. There are many facts to prove it, some of them are:
1. The fact that the University of Cadiz granted him the Doctorate Honoris Causa and his accepting it supports this point for two reasons: A) A formal academic spanish institution recognized that Paco de Lucia’s work was worth of academic studies and that Paco de Lucia is a very knowledgeable personality in the music field. B) That flamenco contemporary music is not a folkloric manifestation but a vast field of musical knowledge. C) In his speech accepting the Doctorate Honoris Causa, Paco de Lucia manifested that it was not his choice to be a self-taught musician but he was by the force of the circumstances, namely, the precarious economical situation of his family at that time (as it was common for flamenco artists and his father was one of them). He himself manifested in his speech: “Some times I have felt the need to learn how to learn…”
2. The fact that knowledgeable musicians from other music styles -all of them with a vast foundation of musical technique and knowledge- have composed music specially for Paco de Lucia (like Touchstone Suite by Chick Corea in 1983), and many of them have played with him his own compositions as well as theirs (like John McLaughlin, Chick Corea, Al di Meola). Through all these colaborations with other artists Paco de Lucia came in contact with the vast world of contemporary music and this knowledge was an important factor in his innovations.
3. Paco de Lucia’s own research and experimental labour with classic works like Concierto de Aranjuez by Joaquin Rodrigo and Manuel de Falla’s repertoire, giving to them a “flamenco” approach of interpretation.

Flamenco contemporary music is, thanks to Paco de Lucia, a great field for musical creation which doesn’t belong to a specific culture anymore, but to humanity.

[rubendiaz]

Furthermore I would like to clarify that I teach this FOR FREE, I am not charging neither advertising anything, not that I am a spam person or anything like that, I would kindly request actually beg, that if someone is not interested or does not agree with what Paco De Lucia taught me, or do not like hoe I present the subject etc,that’s very good for me I never mind,but,PLEASE DON’T EVEN WATCH THIS THREAD,because this is about Paco de lucia and not about some ignorant peoples opinion, posing themselves as scholars on flamenco guitar,or experts, etc.because I will not change my carrer, and or life because of someones inferiority complex,nor I will answer to any mesagge that is unpolite or disrespectfull.

What I am shearing here in the Salon international forum is being given FOR FREE, no one is paying me to write here and or post this ADVANCED lessons,I clarify also that in the video it says ADVANCE LEVEL in the beginning ,so why some people are complaining?.............I also teach beginners, most of them are, but if the videos on lessons I am posting are difficult, please double check first of all to WHICH LEVEL ARE INTENDED.
Also I clarify that if I play along with the record is because of Paco say that,this is the best way to verify if the explanation is accurate, and bonafide, and not to cover any of my imperfections or defects as Mr Todd says………I do have MANY imperfections but that is another issue all apart.


I am not disrespecting anyone,just like anyone else says his opinion, so I say mine, thats all,This is for Mr.Todd and also for the ones that accept his prejudices and misconceptions and want to take them for authoritative kwnoledge about guitar:please try to understand that I am not your empoyee,nor you, or anyone else is paying me to share, and teach what I teach and share in the forum, so how I do it ,and ,how I dont do it, this is up to me only, because I am the one that is teaching and as I said before ,IS FOR FREE.
Acctually you dont have money to pay this kind of kwnoledge anyway ,for it is priceless................And let me tell you that ,I do have already many sincere followers and SERIOUS students, life-time friends, all people that KNOWS CLEARLY what they want to achieve on the guitar,and why specifically they are learning under my guidance etc,--acctually much more students than what I can handle-- ,all this people, accept wholheartedly, and THOROUGHLY,and not just in name what I teach,and they like me,and Paco, and this teachings and concepts,--that what you call disrespectfull—they like them very much ,and never complain, in fact they will be very surprised and astonished to read what you are saying against me and Paco etc………….and HOW you are saying it!........
So, please, try to understand that is me who is doing a favor to you or to the learning respectable audience, or to people aspiring to learn understand analyse and play the Pacos stile of guitar, if you prefer other players that’s ok with me, so its me who is doing a favor to you -namely to teach you for free- and not the other way around, again as I said if you dont like me thenplease do not waste your valuable time trying to change me, or my ideas, Topic to teach, methodology,etc.
This is for the disrespectful only.
Please try to understand it, for I will not explain it again ,neither in inglish nor in spanish, so I beg you to pay attention:............. ,I dont need to make a living with the guitar, and then therefore have to flatter others to do a business, or to say they are ok. when they are not, etc.
Fortunately I am in a position that allows me the to play ,and teach,write, and say what I really want to………..
So for me guitar is only about creating and innovation ,to learn and persue innovation ,so I play only to apreciate,and to aspire for innovation and virtuosity and perfection ,although I respect that for you this does not apply,.............. Att: Ruben Diaz.

[Todd]

Ruben, Why do i care if you dont have to make a living playing guitar?
I dont make a living playing guitar either. I transcribe medical records.

I can say to you whatever i feel like saying to you. Thats free speech. You can continue to lie and be disrespectful, and i can continue to call you a liar,
and a bad teacher. That's how it works.
You contradict yourself at every corner. You say "For me, guitar is only about innovation,etc," but thats not what you do!!!!!!!!! You copy Paco, and go around preaching lies and nonsense. Teaching somebody elses technique, and teaching it badly, is NOT innovative, in the least. Its not "Original".
You just dont get it. Its sad.

[at_leo_87]

this is called feedback, ruben. look at the ratio between people who agree with you and people who dont. can you explain this?

if you're going to share something with people, expect that they will have something to say. be thankful because they paid attention to you. then, learn something.

at least todd is writing original messages each time. you just argue with copy and paste. lol.

[Sandra]

I would not say that manitas de plata or carlos Montoya are not flamenco, or the don’t play good,the thing is that the are not counted on the list of people I analized because, they were not considered liders or innovators on the flamenco field by Sabicas etc...
LOL! For once, one of your misspellings makes a lot of sense. :p

What the heck is a "lider" anyway? :confused:

[Pepe Vergara]

.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3N0BKCoD6s ...

Doctor Diaz: Thank you for your response. I believe the information you provided is very valuable, and I believe it may not be falling in the right ears because of the format it is presented. Would you consider, as Renato Descartes did, parcel the information in small summaries that are easy to follow for those who (like Paco De Lucia) did not have the opportunity to attend superior education institutions?. I especially enjoyed the video where they bestowed the Doctorate Honoris Causa to don Francisco Sanchez Gomez (aka PDL). I enjoyed his words and although he did say that he dropped out of school at 9th grade, his words are well structured and logical, simple, tender, and pure from the heart, just like his music. I did not expect less from him. A soul capable of producing the sound he does, has to be close to perfection in most of the other sectors of life. I was listening to some of your recordings and have not been able to purchase them from the website you suggested. Is there a way to purchase all your CDs directly from somewhere? Thanks, again.

[rubendiaz]

Dear Mr Pepe Vergara:Thanks for your message,you can get my new album here.

http://www.abstractlogix.com/xcart/product.php?productid=24170&cat=0&page=1

and here I send you some of the original compositions of that record for you to tell me if you like the guitars I played while recording this tracks, I used like 10 diferent guitars of all kinds:

http://www.rdiaz.org/recordsincanada.html

This is the theme of the album:Andalusian Flavor, try HQ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kQiW7DoZI0

This is a Buleria dedicated to Chick Corea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oYqQHVhBqs

and this is Rumba 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqliteohjqA


I read that you are a nice luthier also,I would like to talk about guitars and things like this with you, but I am not interested, as you can see in politics, to prove that please check
http://www.rdiaz.org/rdfoto12.html
http://www.rdiaz.org/rdfoto11.html
and then tell me if I look like a person who needs to do spam in a forum, then please check this
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/rdiaz.org
and compare with the international audience I have, with that of this guitar players:
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/tomatito.com
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/manolosanlucar.com
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/gerardonunez.com
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/jmcanizares.com
as you can see I do have more audience that all those players, so its clear that I don’t need to do spam.for I already have a public-This I mentioned not for you Pepe,but for the people who has doubts-

Therefore to avoid envious people,and communicate comfortably with you Mr Vergara,I beg you to please write to me to this E-mail

info@rdiaz.org

Thanks for your kind attention.

Ruben Diaz.

[Todd]

A quote from Paco de Lucia's manager:

quote:

I'm John Estrada manager of DE LUCIA GESTION SL, a company that manages everything related to Paco de Lucia,
About Mr. Rubén is not the first time I have reported this "professor" SR, RUBEN DIAZ, and I know what you're doing and commenting that he is or has been a student of Paco, this is a lie you can tell him, if indeed you have any contact with Paco, Paco de Lucia but never had nor has taught students.
What is worse is that it is selling guitars advantage of the name of Paco de Lucia, comments that are built by Luthiers guitars of Paco de Lucia is a liar etc etc, just to do business,
is really playing very well, but the business is a liar, takes advantage of Paco de Lucia and I am considering putting it in the hands of our lawyers

I do not want to comment on anything else but take care with Mr. Ruben

best regards


JUAN ESTRADA
DE LUCIA GESTION SL
BARCELONA

You are going down Ruben. Lies get you nowhere. Karma will catch up with you. Its coming for you now.

[rubendiaz]

Juan Estrada IS NOT PACOS MANAGER, Paco has no manager at all, ask him to prove it, otherwise I say he is no manager but a bad clown, that all ,he is just a looser ,I am not afraid of him nor of his twenty dollar lawyers ,he should better be aware of the criminal offence of slandering publicly an artist or ANYONE who is a free citizen, of a free country like Canada, it is against the law slandering ANY individual just to make a business, I can just laugh at him, and his lies, he is a very nice clown, and he has been threatening me since 10 years or so, don’t think I do not have the BEST legal advice ,I am 39,and I don’t believe in Santa Claus ,I know what I am doing, don’t try to be over intelligent like Mr. clown Estrada, and commit legal mistakes about calumny offence etc.
Actually I thank you for posting your message mentioning him, this will really help me ! thanks again.
Att. Ruben Diaz.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. clown Estrada should explain why in ¨official¨
web page of Paco the STORE IS CLOSED SINCE MANY YEARS,-public should check this-or better what about HIS fraud of guitars still published in acoustic guitar forum THIS WAS AN ESCALDAL,he or better Mr.Todd –Clown Estradas messanger,should explain this here in public, the scandal is here, please read scrutinizingly:

Link: http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/004018-3.html

and in this same page comes mr.clown Estradas name ,how funny is this!,so I guess he should consider
to send his twenty dollar lawyers to Mr. Jeff hildreth that published about Estradas fraud since 2004,this are the facts,for the public not to be misguided about the truth:


Jeff Hildreth
Member posted 08-18-2004 10:31 AM

Judge for yourself
I don't buy this in its entirity
So who is the "esteemed" worker in the photograph?

Thank you Sr Carrillo , but I have friends that display and attend Musik Messe and NAAM and it is expensive and they must take many 10's if not hundreds of thousands in orders to afford to do that. One does not go there with a shop of only 4 people to fill orders. Some of my friends talked with you and or your staff in Frankfurt... would you care to tell the whole story.. what you have said to them about your organization and production.
And as I clearly said before.. there is more to this story there are more shops producing Ortega and, Solera and Lazaro guitars....which may or may not be of Carrillo origin..
Another note .. in the guitar world as we know it... with a few exceptions .. a "signed " 1a guitar was made by the signator ie the person who signed it
A. Who signed the Domingo Ortega guitars the signature was the same from 97 until present.. I'll be gracious and assume it was Madinter group....
B. Did you make all and I mean all of the guitars you have signed... by signing them the implication is that you did build them alone
As I want a guitar made entirely by the person who signed the guitar.. until proven otherwise.. I would not buy one of your signed guitars...
Many luthiers do not sign the 2a or other guitars from their shop ie Maldonado
Carpio, Bernabe etc ... that is an open and honest way to do business..they dont sign that which you did not make or made to a lesser standard than a 1A
Ergo 1A means nothing.. a signature means nothing
So now we have come in a short time from Ortega to Carrillo and from a small one man shop with an assistant to a 4 person shop to a shop with many people including women doing the fretting to Carrrillo's own words (translated) "a factory"
And from Ortega as the disciple of Vicente Sr, and a master luthier who shares the shop of Vicente, to a ficticious character
I (we) are confused
And did Billy Acila of LACG make up the story of meeting Ortega and provide the
"verifying " photos or did you introduce this person as Sr Ortega
Is there a Sr. Ortega in your organization?
What other brands are produced by the CArrillo shop/factory besides Carrillo and Paco de Lucia..
Incidentally I NEVER buy endorsed guitars,, more smoke and mirrors
Did you personally make the original 1997 Domingo Ortegas or did your 1 assistant help or the 4, or the crew with women fretters, or your "factory"
I would consider buying the used guitar as a 1A rio made by you..and labelled Ortega that would be a very good deal... or is it as I suspect no different than the current 1A Carrillo which may or may not have been made by you personally.. I dont care if it says Ortega or Carrillo .. was this guitar made Vicente Carrillo alone ??
If you think I am overly tenacious about this or as we say in America "flogging a dead horse" , Carrillo's own words brought us to question the operation
Also considering others wrote ficticious statements . I will take at face value your explanation of this...
The buyer is entitled to know who made the product and if the value is there and if the signed label was signed by a "real living person" and the maker of the guitar or just a handful of labels signed at one time and inserted into the guitars (as do some)without regard for the truth of the unit made by a factory a small staff or by one person. The information is not credible or reliable.
This is on no way denegrate an individual or a product just a search for the facts.
Americans simply will not accept vaca caca.
With all due respect to Sr Vicente Carrillo and his staff...no es claro....
but if there is a true "bad guy" here it looks like the Madinter Group
Billy ,you got a lot of 'splaining to do : )
Thanks James for contacting Sr. Carrillo
Jeff
So is it time to call Senior Miguel Angel Senovilla (Sanchez) at Madinter and ask to speak to luthier Domingo Ortega...
maybe I can trade some port orford cedar and redwood for some guitarras with the EL Jefe
label but I would specify I want the labels signed by lady fretters.
[This message has been edited by Jeff Hildreth (edited 08-18-2004).]

[Great Googly Moogly]

Ruben,

Your posts are too short for me. You should feel free to make them a little bit longer if possible.

[Jubilee Valence]

uhhh Ruben....amigo....everybody here knows Jeff Hildreth.....and if you're trying to use anything he ever says to "help" you......oh nooooo!!!???

You just made it worse!!!!

I don't know what to say to this guy....

let him babble on.....

like in the rasguedos tutorial video....

Hildreth......that's really something....

Hildreth.....

oh, gawwwwwwwwdddddddddddd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jubilee Valence]

gee!

golly!

..maybe the "James" in that last essay should be consulted for the real scoop....

sheeeeshhhh....

[rubendiaz]

1) No one can prove if I'm Paco's disciple or not but Paco himself, no one else. The oponents who say they know Paco for many years can not fathom how many people Paco has met in his life. I'm not worried about this because it is a FACT that what I claim to be it truth and I have demostrated and proved it thoroughly.It is not enough to be "friend" of Paco, there are thousands of people who say they are his so called "friends".That means nothing.... YOU HAVE TO PLAY LIKE PACO... Not just say: "I understand his music", "I know what he is doing".... YOU HAVE TO PLAY IT.

2)So if Mr. Todd,and Mr.Clown Estrada want to test me, I will test them first and challenge them and the others like Mr.Jubilee Valence who pose their selves as "bonafide" teachers and players to show their great expertise and knowledge as a flamenco guitar player. So please upload an hamonic analysis and technical explanation with the performance at actual speed of the Intro, theme and Paco'solo of "La Estiba" (Tangos) Track No. 1 of "Paco de Lucia, John McLaughlin and Al di Meola" album 1997 as I DID IN EL CHORRUELO Buleria(Luzia album). Otherwise I -and the very inteligent audience who reads my lines- will take your messages as a cheap bla bla bla of someone who is AFRAID that their "authority" in this forum (and in front of many other good intentioned aspirants to play flamenco) will fall apart.

You have one week to upload your videos in the forum. Today is Monday July 6 so your deadline is Monday July 13th, 2009. If there is no uploads, I will upload mine and you will prove with your own omission that I'm right.

Ruben Diaz

_____________________________

Ruben Diaz
www.rdiaz.org
info@rdiaz.org

[Great Googly Moogly]

Ruben, you are truly mental, dude.

[Great Googly Moogly]

This entire forum is turning into one big Ruben Diaz nightmare. Ruben Diaz, Ruben Diaz, Ruben Diaz, Ruben Diaz, Ruben Diaz, Ruben Diaz! Somebody please make it stop!! GO AWAY!!! You're a freaking mental case!

[Jubilee Valence]

1) ....like Mr.Jubilee Valence who pose their selves as "bonafide" teachers and players to show their great expertise and knowledge as a flamenco guitar player.....You have one week....so your deadline is......

I will upload mine and you will prove with your own omission that I'm right.

Ruben Diaz

_____________________________

Ruben Diaz
www.rdiaz.org
info@rdiaz.org

Is there something WRONG with you, Diaz???!!!

Or are you just plain EDIT: kooky....

Don't wait a WEEK to put up your slick stuff, do it NOW!

Are YOU not ready????

Regarding "my" situation you EDIT: "kook", I'm hardly able to finance any production nor do I have any respect for what you play and propose;

However considering that you are so "rico suave" feel free to come to Arizona and sit down and play your slow stuff in my presence a la "juerga"
(but make sure that I can accommodate your schedule...)

Perhaps we can turn it into some legitimate toque libre.....but you need to work on your speed and improvisational skills before you choose me off.

For the record EDIT: "kook", "I" merely busted your stupid remarks which you immediately pulled--good thing---or we'd see more lies, but you got rid of them.

That crap with you posting my "IP address" and now this ultimate tv showdown is a joke

You are a "kook".

I ain't hard to find....

[jtucker]

...as you can see I do have more audience that all those players, so its clear that I don’t need to do spam.for I already have a public-This I mentioned not for you Pepe,but for the people who has doubts-

Thanks for your kind attention.

Ruben Diaz.

Seriously?!?!?! More audience? Audience implies people actually listen to you...

Your international audience? Outside of Germany and the United States, there's nothing! Almost 60% of Tomatito's traffic comes from many countries that aren't his own. Maybe the reason your website is more "popular" than all these great players' sites is that they actually are too busy playing in concerts that people pay money to see. They have no time to spam all these forums with their web addresses like you do.

Again, your logic is absolutely ridiculous.

Also, an harmonic analysis is not that hard for anyone who's had a few music theory/jazz theory classes. However it does take a lot of time. I bet you already have yours printed out. We get a week? How convenient...

[Sandra]

Your international audience? Outside of Germany and the United States, there's nothing!
I noticed that as well. For someone who teaches at a supposedly high level at a Canadian university, why are there no Canadian visitors to his site?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

[Jubilee Valence]

Hey---AMIGO-----tu Diaz----- (hola)

"put up or shut up" (mas o meno...)

DO IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (por favor)

We don't need a WEEK(no la semana) for you to play games...

Play your games NOW---IF----you've got the guts to back up your big fat mouth with your slow playing...(no es rapido tu)

¿Comprende don pendejo?

bla bla AHORA, cabezA GRANDE
NO bla bla MAÑANA dona amiga

ps...sorry Dave
(in advance...:twisted:)

[Dave Tate]

ps...sorry Dave
(in advance...:twisted:)

it's cool Phil, I know you always mean well. Just keep an eye on the attacks/name-calling.

[Jubilee Valence]

yeah...a red eye!!??? ooops!!!

foxymoxy's been hackin' me again!?

lem'me make it right...

"POOOF!!!" in advance...:mrgreen:

[Pepe Vergara]

Philip: I now suspect that Dave is enjoying the controversy here. After almost a year of passiveness, the board has catched up to a fervor seen only in the past. I would not critizise doctor Diaz for being such an "apasionado" of PDL. Believe me, if I had met PDL, talked to him, studied him, and learned from him, I probably would too. In fact, a common discussion you find in almost every corner of Andalusia is Paco de Lucia. PDL takes 90 percent of any discussion. Even outside Spain, I remember once, when I visited your beautiful Scottsdale, Arizona, I went to the oldest restaurant in town with the best steak and wine. The owner was a flamenco afficionado. The conversation about guitars came up and he asked me who the best flamenco player was. I said Sabicas (you know, the puro thing!). The man was very dissapointed, he considered the best flamenco player: Carlos Montoya. He pulled records, photographs with him playing at the restaurant, etc. I had to change my version after I heard some of the records and notice the man's attitude becoming wild. Then I got free drinks from the man. That shows how flamenco brings one's inner passion. Peace.

[Tony D'Arco]

Ruben,

Your posts are too short for me. You should feel free to make them a little bit longer if possible.

I agree. This guy has way too much time on his hands. - Tony

[Jubilee Valence]

Philip:....I would not critizise doctor Diaz for being such an "apasionado" of PDL. Believe me, if I had met PDL, talked to him, studied him, and learned from him, I probably would too. In fact, a common discussion you find in almost every corner of Andalusia is Paco de Lucia. PDL takes 90 percent of any discussion. Even outside Spain......

Don Pepe, por favor, mil pardones por mi fervor gitano de ignorancia y tambien mi "outlaw" proscrito (¡y mi siempre mas español malo! ;) )--pero ahora yo tengo mucho respecto por de PDL....mira:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDbnNh4T9Ok&feature=related

Dr. Diaz es ok, ¿que'? Pero "n'chalado"---y es tambien nosotros....:mrgreen:

Gracias siempres, mi jefe ;)
-Felipe'

[RichardM]

Also, an harmonic analysis is not that hard for anyone who's had a few music theory/jazz theory classes. However it does take a lot of time. I bet you already have yours printed out. We get a week? How convenient...

Actually Ruben already challenged Mcguire with this tune a month ago, he is trying fool you guys with his challenge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGy08GK51nI

I am sure he had already done it months earlier. Anyway, as a serious Paco fan, I am sad to say Ruben is not even picking out the proper parts by ear (much less from the master himself as he claims). It is a real shame.

Anyone serious about learning this piece can do better with this version, as you can see the fingerings have the correct notes and positions and stuff! LOL

He starts this piece at 00:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAfl0JJi3FE&feature=PlayList&p=04180892366C4B3C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2

Ricardo

[Jubilee Valence]

If you kindly present some prove of what you say.........

One thing is Science,and another is someone opinions.
In the research field, it counts only, and it is accepted only, what can be shown objetively with proves,and facts,and not any other subjetive opinion or view,this is the standard for the academic format.
Att:Ruben Diaz.

So you say that only Paco did whatever it is you're dreaming about first and that Paco is the only innovator

Everyone here has given their "opinion" based upon the simple facts as shown in history

We've ALL done our research Professor Diaz...

Have you?

Everyone here has read this simple essay a million times:

http://www.deflamenco.com/articulos/carlosmontoya/indexi.jsp

Have someone, maybe Paco himself, "read it to you", out loud...

And this is regarding only ONE of the great artists that WE have attempted to bless you with......there are many, many more

And we've got all the time in the world....

How's your ultimate proof video coming along?

Why don't you take a break, and re-learn some things that you've perhaps forgotton in your busy life?

Starting with "History......"
____

btw Ruben, just like Carlos Montoya played particularly disresptful to his uncle's style because his uncle snubbed him for a "nobody", how do you think people will respect you if you *continue to snub everybody...

and try to distort history...?
______

Also, tell your luthier friends that the early flamencos were made from maple...

I've already told you why...

Don't disrespect the entire country of Spain who've recently apologized for Franco

A lot of innocent people died so you could have your precious cypress...

[rubendiaz]

Here I send you the Performance and explanation of Paco de Lucia's tangos
“La Estiba” from “Paco de Lucia, John McLaughlin and Al di Meola” album (Track 1) I hope you enjoy it!

http://www.rdiaz.org/rdvideo22.html

http://www.rdiaz.org/rdvideo23.html

Ruben Diaz.

[NGiorgio]

Ruben,

I must say that you "take a licking and keep on ticking" ( a line from the Timex watch commercials from some time back).

If nothing else, you have created some excitement around this and other forums.

[Jubilee Valence]

Dr. Diaz,
uhh...thank you?!
___
EDIT add:

ps. Nick, I'd rather see the ol' Samsonite Luggage commercial...you know with Faya as the big monkey & Ruben as the sturdy suitcase!!!!????

:mrgreen:

[NGiorgio]

Dr. Diaz,
uhh...thank you?!
___
EDIT add:

ps. Nick, I'd rather see the ol' Samsonite Luggage commercial...you know with Faya as the big monkey & Ruben as the sturdy suitcase!!!!????

:mrgreen:


That would be funny and I'll bet he would keep comin' back for more ....................

[Joguitar]

Hi Mr. Diaz,

I followed the discussion the last days...thanks for your free video inspirations of PDL technique its quite inspirative fur such an non spezialist of flamenco in its great perfection such as I am........but for my opinnion flamenco is a living art..you must live flamenco to bring it up to its highest level..and thats the point.....I miss in your aura the mentioned subjects listed in the title above...have you lost it ..or never found it ?...hope you will take this advice in a good manner...proove yourself...
Joguitar

[johnbguitar]

How about a video in performance mode of your own composition Ruben?

[ssante]

Hi Mr. Diaz,

I followed the discussion the last days...thanks for your free video inspirations of PDL technique its quite inspirative fur such an non spezialist of flamenco in its great perfection such as I am........but for my opinnion flamenco is a living art..you must live flamenco to bring it up to its highest level..and thats the point.....I miss in your aura the mentioned subjects listed in the title above...have you lost it ..or never found it ?...hope you will take this advice in a good manner...proove yourself...
Joguitar

I see this whole issue as a huge problem these days. Seems the emphasis is always on speed, complexity and more speed. (IMHO) Very few players have the ability to play complexity combined with speed and get the emotional impact across. Sure, one can be impressed by these things for a short time but ultimately the music either touches the listener or it doesn't. Some of the finest compositions by Sabicas, Nunez, Tomatito and PDL are not the Bulerias.

Its funny, I find myself thinking that every new Flamenco player has to prove they can play a Bulerias at break neck speed.

I would much rather hear a piece played with poetry, grace, passion and deep emotion. That leaves a lasting impression and impacts the Heart and Soul.

As the ZEN saying goes: Sometimes less is more!

Caveat: This is not directed at Ruben Diaz but concerns much larger issue I have seen over the years.

[Joguitar]

SSANTE...!

You are totally wright;
I`ve listened to your music..and know what you mean....
Joguitar:roll:

[johnbguitar]

I whole heartedly agree and second the emotions! If it grabs me by the heart it has all of me. Technique is simply the ability to get it across to others.

[Jubilee Valence]

bump.....

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: