Flamenco Tremolo

[ssante]

I have been working on the Flamenco Tremolo: piami vs. the Classical Tremolo: pami. I must say that the Classical Tremolo sounds much smoother to my ears and is far easier to play. The Flamenco Tremolo is more difficult to play without sounding like there is a "hop" or delay between the i and a. I have probably watched the Graf-Martinez DVD 10-20 times to try and nail the cadence.

Does anyone have suggestions? The turn around from pi to ami seems somewhat awkward? Does it become natural. I remember Sal saying he prefers: pmami or pmima as he feels its less awkward.

[ssante]

bump..

[nickc]

Just one suggestion, practice. That's all it takes is practice, and it will be all in your fingers without any need for any thinking. You probably don't remember what it was like learning the classical tremolo. Of course, there's an extra note involved here, but that just makes the tremolo all the richer. Just don't get frustrated. Relax. Play it as slow as you need to to play all the notes smoothely, and gradually pick up the speed. And if you still can't get it, just play the classical tremolo. I play even the classical pieces now with the flamenco tremolo. We're not in school anymore. We can do what we want, what pleases us. The important thing is not if you are playing correctly, but if it sounds beautiful to you.

[NGiorgio]

Here's something which I have mentioned on this forum before. Try practicing staccato, slow and even with p i a m i a m i . It will make your p i a m i flow better. It is important to practice staccato. Of course patience is needed.:-)

[Pepe Vergara]

Practice slow and slow, you will get there in no time. It is a richer tremolo.

[Perf_de_Castro]

You also have to remember that flamenco and classical tremolos are not interchangeable.

Classical tremolo is expressed with 32nd notes, P marks the 8th note pulse of the music.

Flamenco tremolo is expressed as 16th note quintuplets, P marks the quarter note pulse of the music.

[nickc]

Perf, you are a magnificent guitar-player, and there is some mathematical truth to what you say, but, given how many beats there are to a measure, it is possible to play 3, 4, 5, 6 or as many notes as you want to a beat, and, therefore, I believe that classical and flamenco or any other kind of tremolo you want to invent are interchangeable. Also, I believe that even though there is a mathematical base to music, ultimately, in performance, all music, especially solo guitar, is a cadenza.

[at_leo_87]

i found this elsewhere. here's what ricardo marlow had to say about tremolo once...
"About tremolo. Lots of folks approach tremolo like 5 tuplets. Try thinking of the 4 melody notes as a pick up or grace note to the NEXT bass note. iamiP..........iamiP........iamiP......etc. When you learn the melody, try to couple the melody note to the next bass note rather than the bass-melody like the beaming of the notes implies. So slow tremolo practice involves keeping those 4 notes fast all the time, but leaving space between repetitions like I wrote above. To "speed it up" you dont have to go faster, but simply close that gap there between "P" and "i". Flamenco players stretch the time of the tremolo very much by playing with that gap there".

[ssante]

Lots of great input. My Thanks to everyone.

As always patience is a virtue when learning new techniques. ;)

[Dave Tate]

I have been working on the Flamenco Tremolo: piami vs. the Classical Tremolo: pami. I must say that the Classical Tremolo sounds much smoother to my ears and is far easier to play. The Flamenco Tremolo is more difficult to play without sounding like there is a "hop" or delay between the i and a. I have probably watched the Graf-Martinez DVD 10-20 times to try and nail the cadence.

Does anyone have suggestions? The turn around from pi to ami seems somewhat awkward? Does it become natural. I remember Sal saying he prefers: pmami or pmima as he feels its less awkward.

I felt the same way years ago. Now a four-finger tremolo feels awkward, and five-finger seems natural. Just give it time.

Practice tapping it out on a table top too. You'll have it in no time.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Perf, you are a magnificent guitar-player, and there is some mathematical truth to what you say, but, given how many beats there are to a measure, it is possible to play 3, 4, 5, 6 or as many notes as you want to a beat, and, therefore, I believe that classical and flamenco or any other kind of tremolo you want to invent are interchangeable. Also, I believe that even though there is a mathematical base to music, ultimately, in performance, all music, especially solo guitar, is a cadenza.Yeah, I was wondering what Perf meant by that, too. There's a piece that Juan plays where he goes back and forth between the flamenco (quintuple) tremolo and 16th note tremolo throughout the same piece.

i found this elsewhere. here's what ricardo marlow had to say about tremolo once...
"About tremolo. Lots of folks approach tremolo like 5 tuplets. Try thinking of the 4 melody notes as a pick up or grace note to the NEXT bass note. iamiP..........iamiP........iamiP......etc. When you learn the melody, try to couple the melody note to the next bass note rather than the bass-melody like the beaming of the notes implies. So slow tremolo practice involves keeping those 4 notes fast all the time, but leaving space between repetitions like I wrote above. To "speed it up" you don't have to go faster, but simply close that gap there between "P" and "i". Flamenco players stretch the time of the tremolo very much by playing with that gap there".That's very interesting. There's a technique I've heard in flamenco where the four-tremolo sequence is immediately followed by a chord. It's a five-note sequence with the fifth "note" being a chord that is sustained. There may be a name for it, I don't know, but it reminds me of what Richard was illustrating here.

[Perf_de_Castro]

given how many beats there are to a measure, it is possible to play 3, 4, 5, 6 or as many notes as you want to a beat, and, therefore, I believe that classical and flamenco or any other kind of tremolo you want to invent are interchangeable.


My post refers to tempo and pulse. If you have 3/4 time @ 72 bpm, the classical tremolo sounds smooth because of the 32nd notes. If at that same tempo you play the flamenco tremolo, 16th note quintuplets aren't enough to create the perception of a sustaining upper voice. Flamenco tremolo is typically applied to faster-paced music.

For slower paced toques/falsetas, usually the flamenco tremolo IMA movements are doubled (PIAMIAMI, etc) instead of having the thumb do 8th note pulse ala classical.

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "not interchangeable". The point I'm trying to make is that one should always keep the tempo and pulse of the music in mind while practicing both techniques. If you want to play Recuerdos with a flamenco tremolo, be prepared to take the tempo several clicks down tempo-wise.

[nickc]

There's an interesting and quite beautiful piece called "Guajiras from Cana Raja" which is the last solo in the Juan Martin first volume of Solos Flamencos, and interspersed between the 5-note tremolos are pairs of sixteenth notes played p, i which is an interesting effect, something like the chord which you reference above.

[at_leo_87]

That's very interesting. There's a technique I've heard in flamenco where the four-tremolo sequence is immediately followed by a chord. It's a five-note sequence with the fifth "note" being a chord that is sustained. There may be a name for it, I don't know, but it reminds me of what Richard was illustrating here.

hmmm... i think i know what you're talking about. this is part of an intro for a solea. something like this?

-0-0-0-0-0-------------------
---------0--------------------
---------1-------------------- repeat
---------2-h3p2p0p2-h3p2p0p2
------------------------------
------------------------------

[ssante]

I felt the same way years ago. Now a four-finger tremolo feels awkward, and five-finger seems natural. Just give it time.

Practice tapping it out on a table top too. You'll have it in no time.

Dave, the tapping practice is a great idea. :D Thats helping me get used to the cadence. Thanks so much for this tip.

[Great Googly Moogly]

hmmm... i think i know what you're talking about. this is part of an intro for a solea. something like this?

-0-0-0-0-0-------------------
----------0--------------------
----------1-------------------- repeat
----------2-h3p2p0p2-h3p2p0p2
------------------------------
------------------------------Exactly! Yes.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Flamenco tremolo is typically applied to faster-paced music.The opposite, right?

This is true:

If you want to play Recuerdos with a flamenco tremolo, be prepared to take the tempo several clicks down tempo-wise.

[flamencoguru]

I do my flamenco tremolo like this: PMAMI . It works out great for me. There are very few people that do it this way but I find it much more logical. Just my 2 cents.

Un saludo, Errol

[Perf_de_Castro]

The opposite, right?

No, flamenco tremolo works better and sounds smoother at faster tempos where the thumb (P) plays quarter note pulse.

This is true:

Yes, because the thumb plays 8th note pulse in Recuerdos, not quarter notes.

[Great Googly Moogly]

My post refers to tempo and pulse. If you have 3/4 time @ 72 bpm, the classical tremolo sounds smooth because of the 32nd notes. If at that same tempo you play the flamenco tremolo, 16th note quintuplets aren't enough to create the perception of a sustaining upper voice. Flamenco tremolo is typically applied to faster-paced music.I see what you're talking about now. With respects to Recuerdos, 3/4 time at 72 bpm puts the eighth notes in the accompanying figure at 144, since it's the quarter note that is equal to 72 bpm. I play some tremolo in 6/8 as well. Since 6/8 is two beats per measure (the dotted quarter representing the beat), a piece in 6/8 is actually at a slower "tempo" than a piece in 3/4 whose eighth notes are flying by at the same speed. It's an interesting comparison but the thing that determines how full the tremolo is going to sound, of course, is the speed of the notes making up the accompanying figure since there's a tremolo group associated with each one of those.

This whole business about "beats" and what is considered to be an "accented count" can get a little fussy sometimes, no? I had a theory professor who had his doctorate degree in music swear to me that 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4 all contained only one "beat" per measure. Wild stuff.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Flamenco tremolo is typically applied to faster-paced music."Faster paced" with a slower accompanying figure (or an accompanying figure that is not "subdivided") is the way I probably should have tried to clarify.

[Great Googly Moogly]

I learned a lot again. I would have never given this this much thought, Perf, had you not addressed it.

I love this place!