3 finger Rasquedo justification?

[ssante]

First off I want to preface this with the statement that I realize there are many different Rasquedo techniques and combinations and they all have their place.

I have heard that many modern Flamencos prefer 3 finger Rasquedo which is also recommended by Graf-Martinez and others. At times I have even heard folks say the old style 4 fingers sounds "dull" in comparision to 3 finger.

After listening to alot of older players like: Sabicas, Ramon Montoya, Juan Serrano, Pepe Hepachuela (whom I really like), etc.; I am beginning to wonder why the 3 finger has become so popular and why the justification?

What I have noticed is if you do a pattern where the (pinky) leads first and that is the predominant beat, it is more difficult to exact a strong attack. I also can see where it may also be difficult to completely control or eliminate a slight "delay" between the "pinky" and and other finger.

I greatly enjoy the 4 finger Rasquedo but I must say its easier IMHO to control the 3 finger as those fingers seem to be so much stronger. Sometimes I wonder if ease of the 3 finger is not the TRUE justification for this modern technique of 3 fingers being used so much?

As in all techniques I realize they all have there place. But there does seem to be a heavy emphasize on 3 finger these days using some combination of "IMA".

[NGiorgio]

Juan Martin mentioned why he uses the four finger ras, in one of his videos. He said because it fits his hand. I believe he also mentioned that you could substitute the three finger if it worked better for you.

In my opinion, if you were able to listen to the 4 and 3 finger versions played very slowly, there is a noticeable difference, especially with the amii (w/last i played with up stroke) in the percussive quality of the rasgueado.

I believe that Adam delMonte demonstrates this in his lessons.

www.newlearningvision.com

I have noticed that Tomatito and Gerardo Nunez occasionally use a 4 finger in their Encuentro material, but not very often.

As you mentioned each has its place. I think that it is best to learn the four finger, just as it is best to get a good firm knowledge of traditional flamenco. Once proficient in the traditional, a good foundation has been accomplished and going on to the more modern stuff, is much easier.

I suspect that the reason it is used so much today is that it works better (also a bit easier to execute) for more players, and to my ears it also sounds better.

Again, you need to use what works best for you. ;-)

[NFalla]

practice all the ras's you can get a grip on until the point of nausea.:lol:
put a sock between the strings and soundboard by the bridge to deaden the sound...........you'll get a better understanding of the percussive value of them as well......

then just start playing with no attention to what you are going to use ...............watch how the different ones seem to find their place, according to the rhythms and your natural instinct.;)

That's an old gypsy trick to learning to make them your own.

[ssante]

... As you mentioned each has its place. I think that it is best to learn the four finger, just as it is best to get a good firm knowledge of traditional flamenco. Once proficient in the traditional, a good foundation has been accomplished and going on to the more modern stuff, is much easier.

I suspect that the reason it is used so much today is that it works better (also a bit easier to execute) for more players, ...

I have been working very deligently on the 4 finger ras and it is coming along except the pinky still lags (a little bit). I have been practicing some songs from Juan Serrano's Flamenco book that called for heavy use of iami and found them so much easier to play after learning to do emai or emaii. That is how I discovered that finger dexterity and strength seems to be gained much quicker in the ima fingers.

[ssante]

practice all the ras's you can get a grip on until the point of nausea.:lol:
put a sock between the strings and soundboard by the bridge to deaden the sound...........you'll get a better understanding of the percussive value of them as well......

then just start playing with no attention to what you are going to use ...............watch how the different ones seem to find their place, according to the rhythms and your natural instinct.;)

That's an old gypsy trick to learning to make them your own.

NF, I love the sock idea. Practicing ras's for hours on end day after day can drive a spouse crazy. I guess this is the preverbial "put a sock in it!" routine. ;)

I also use the "Guitar Mute" at work during breaks to enhance my training.

[NGiorgio]

practice all the ras's you can get a grip on until the point of nausea.:lol:
put a sock between the strings and soundboard by the bridge to deaden the sound...........you'll get a better understanding of the percussive value of them as well......

then just start playing with no attention to what you are going to use ...............watch how the different ones seem to find their place, according to the rhythms and your natural instinct.;)

That's an old gypsy trick to learning to make them your own.

Which is the gypsy trick, the nausea, the sock or not paying attention? ;-)

[NFalla]

All three................!;):lol:

[ssante]

then just start playing with no attention to what you are going to use ...............watch how the different ones seem to find their place, according to the rhythms and your natural instinct.;)

That's an old gypsy trick to learning to make them your own.

Interesting NF. So do you do this while listening to CDs of Flamenco's? Or to various Compas with Metronome?

[NFalla]

Interesting NF. So do you do this while listening to CDs of Flamenco's? Or to various Compas with Metronome?

If you are planning on playing "traditional" flamenco then with the various flamenco forms.
Otherwise do it when you are free jamming.........................heck do it when ever.;)

[Y-2-H]

In my opinion, I think no one should stick with one of the 2 to go with all the time. I think when you’re using a rasgueo you should see if in this part of the piece the 3 or 4-fingers sounds better and use it and not just stick all the time with the one you prefer. Because nothing is always suitable in music!

[NFalla]

NF, I love the sock idea. Practicing ras's for hours on end day after day can drive a spouse crazy. I guess this is the preverbial "put a sock in it!" routine. ;)



LOL!!!.........yup.......i know what you mean all too well.:D

[Joguitar]

.......
Otherwise do it when you are free jamming.........................heck do it when ever.;)


NFalla is totally right !

Free jamming... and session with other guitarrists...still is the best way...to get near to the emotional and extatic rhythm patterns of flamencos nature...to reach the point where your own strong felt inner rhythm is flowing into your hands and let you forget about technical lessons....
;)
Joguitar

[tanolonco]

the nice thing about the 4 stroke rasqueo, be it iami or cami (chico/chica for the pinky) is that once you get that going you can do multiple 4 stroke rasqueos for some palos--such as malaguena with a great effect....the machine gun effect. then you can do the 5 stroke with a similiar effect camii--the last i being an upstroke. as to the 3 stroke...i always see that as a triplet pip/pmp (thumb up, index down/middle down and thumb down). i believe it is called marote (spelling?) which seems to be used a lot in the modern technique. sabicas used a 3 stroke rasqueo to great success...but anything that guy did was successful albeit i have not heard his rock and roll album he did with joe pass (i believe that is the guy).

as to the sock--i think any type of resistance will build speed and strength. i learned by doing it against my leg while driving and focusing on slow but deliberate movements. as i recall about the sock, in pohren's second book about dancers, singers and guitarists, he mentioned this guy back in the late 19th century who was the second guitarist and one day played with a glove on his hand. the first guitarist then put two gloves on and then the second guitarist put on a sock...all hand accroutements (spelling again) were done to out do the other. as i recall the second guitarist bumped the first guitarist out of his number one standing.

[ssante]

the nice thing about the 4 stroke rasqueo, be it iami or cami (chico/chica for the pinky) is that once you get that going you can do multiple 4 stroke rasqueos for some palos--such as malaguena with a great effect....the machine gun effect. then you can do the 5 stroke with a similiar effect camii--the last i being an upstroke.

Interesting tanolonco. The 4 strock cami and the 5 stroke with camii - with last i being an upstroke is exactly the initial set of ras's I have been working to perfect. I am now beginning to get comfortable with them both and am expanding into 2 and 3 stroke combinations.

Though I didn't realize it at the time I believe learning 4 stroke first set one up to learn the rest abit easier and the strength and independence is gained across them all.

[NGiorgio]

Stephanie,

I seem to remember that you are studying with a teacher. What is his take on rasgueados?

[NFalla]

Remember!!.............the point is to be able to seamlessly flow from one to another.;-)
It's Ok to do them individually at first........but at some point you should be able to go from one to the other with no hesitation.

Although............this is not as commonly used in modern styles of flamenco.
It's more of an Old School thing, which is much more full-out chordal strumming as compared to the single note ornate modern style.
BOTH EQUALLY AS COOL!!!!............so don't think i'm taking sides here!
Watch this right hand, you'll see what i mean by seamlessly going from one ras variation to another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLUxHEJ4kPM

[NFalla]

as to the sock--i think any type of resistance will build speed and strength. i learned by doing it against my leg while driving and focusing on slow but deliberate movements. as i recall about the sock, in pohren's second book about dancers, singers and guitarists, he mentioned this guy back in the late 19th century who was the second guitarist and one day played with a glove on his hand. the first guitarist then put two gloves on and then the second guitarist put on a sock...all hand accroutements (spelling again) were done to out do the other. as i recall the second guitarist bumped the first guitarist out of his number one standing.

Yo the sock is not put on the hand. :lol:

It's put between the Top of the guitar and the Strings. Rolled-Up.
It's to dampen them so to be able to better hear the rhythmic value of the fingers as they hit the strings. ;)

[at_leo_87]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLUxHEJ4kPM

is it me or does his compas seem a little.... funny?

anyways, i use three finger rasgueados a lot more. the pinky just isn't as strong. i also like how i can flick ami off the thumb (you can too with the pinky, just a bit tricky). also, i lost the tendon for the top joint of my pinky so i cant use that joint anymore. so yeah, three finger rasgueados for me. :D

[Dave Tate]

is it me or does his compas seem a little.... funny?

lol. there was compas in there? someone please point it out to me.

regardless, his smiling while he plays wins me over. :D

[NFalla]

Oh................quit being elitists.:rolleyes:

i chose this video as an example to show the smooth transition from one variation to another of his right hand.:lol:

some peoples kids i tell ya........................:p

[ssante]

Stephanie,

I seem to remember that you are studying with a teacher. What is his take on rasgueados?

The teacher has me starting out with the 5 stroke with camii with final i as upstroke. He has not yet discussed other types of ras's. I have been slowly trying others on my own.

[tanolonco]

faya, oh putting a sock on the guitar not the hand...duh on me. i tried it this morning and it makes the guitar sound like chinese or japanese instruments...very ting ting sounding. i often will practice with my left hand muting the strings...a flamenco technique in its own right. however, for building strength and stamina wearing a sock might not be a bad idea although the sock will need to be very stretchy.

ssante--try practicing c-a-m-i-c-a-m-i (repeat as often as needed). what you will need to do is prep your pinkie (have it back in the starting gate) as you flick your index finger. this gives the machine gun/drum roll effect so nice for grananias and malaguena. you can practice this in the car, in a boring meeting at work, or upside your spouse's head if he misbehaves or does not do the dishes (you gotta protect your nails here). consider it flamenco's version of click and clack's dope slap.

[at_leo_87]

lol. well, it is a good example of smooth transition. also a good example of how to look infectiously super happy. his smile won me over too, and more than made up for his lack of compas.

[La Vieja Escuela]

I have heard that many modern Flamencos prefer 3 finger Rasquedo which is also recommended by Graf-Martinez and others. At times I have even heard folks say the old style 4 fingers sounds "dull" in comparision to 3 finger.

After listening to alot of older players like: Sabicas, Ramon Montoya, Juan Serrano, Pepe Hepachuela (whom I really like), etc.; I am beginning to wonder why the 3 finger has become so popular and why the justification?



No justification necessary. To say a 4 finger sounds dull compared to the 3 finger is ones opinion. Some say continuous 4 fingers cannot be done smoothly. Both statements are personal opinions and rather silly in my opinion. Graf-Martinez comes from a mechanical and technical viewpoint with way too much emphasis on his compas clock. Playing in compas is necessary if one wants to learn flamenco correctly, but I find his ideas are much to focused on technique and mechanics rather than the music.

Rasqueado simply means to STRUM the strings rather than pluck. Strumming up and down with the index finger is a basic flamenco rasqueado. Addition of other fingers and in what order they are played just add to different sounds and dynamics. I hear many whinning they cannot use Serranos compositions because of his unique rasqueado. Nonsense! Just replace the time he uses with his rasqueado with what you can do. It may have different dynamics, but will be in compas and sound flamenco. Example: Juans Sevillanas: Instead of isami i use samii i or keep it simple to learn the compas i i i or if one likes amii i. Just play the amii slower to fill the time. I use 2 rapid sami sami i to fill the same time of 3 beats.

As I said before, no justification needed and to say one rasqueado is better than another is ludicrous. They all have their uses in achieving the dynamics a player prefers. Ever watched a player playing flamenco using a pick and the sam fingers for their 3 finger rasqueado? Some can do this great and be in perfect timing. They simply slow the speed of the sam discharge to fit the time necessary to stay in compas. The guy that started me in flamenco 40 years ago played an amazing mip (p upstroke) rasqueado he learned from a gitano that had only a middle, index, and thumb on his right hand. This is the ultimate 3 finger rasqueado in my opinion. I have never been able to do it smoothly. My favorite rasqueado I use a lot is samip (p upstroke). My justification ... I like doing it, I love the sound, and the dynamics are perfect for gitano pueblo flamenco which is what I love.

[Kainarezo]

Amen - I say use the ones you have, and when you run into a rhythm you can't play, then it's time to learn some new ones. I was originally taught a four finger rasqueado back in the day, but now I mainly use a three finger one because in Spain most of the stuff I was taught used that one. But I still use two, three and four finger ones all the time depending on what I'm playing.

I always teach the three finger one first because it makes sense to me and it's nice and even, which I think helps students at first. But that's just my approach, and clearly people have played and keep playing amazing stuff with all sorts of different rasqueados.

Since it's one of the things that makes Flamenco so personal, I really don't think you can even think about a right or wrong. And the justification is always simple - it sounds good or it doesn't.

[at_leo_87]

it's not necessary to use them but i think it's important to learn them anyways. i hate rasgueados that start with an I upstroke but i practice them anyways because it helps my I upstroke to become stronger.

oh and hey kai,
i'm playing in sabrina avile's class now. she said you used to play there once in awhile. she says hi. and man, if you played for that class, i have a big impossible expectation to fill now!

[ronjazz]

The use of the 3 or 4-finger rasg can also be determined by what the dancers are doing. The 3-finger has become popular because many of the heel moves (taconeo) are in even 16th-note patterns, and the guitar doing the same pattern can actually help the dancers.

Certainly the best way to really learn and internalize the various palos and play in proper compas is to accompany dance classes.

[Derry]

have always loved this video of Diego del Gastor, hard to tell is he is using three of four fingers, looks like four, either way they sound great,,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W74IVr_90CQ&NR=1

Derry

[cuchares]

In my opinion, I think no one should stick with one of the 2 to go with all the time. I think when you’re using a rasgueo you should see if in this part of the piece the 3 or 4-fingers sounds better and use it and not just stick all the time with the one you prefer. Because nothing is always suitable in music!

You should be able to do many rasqueados.The 3 finger albanico is the popular one today but it is a pale shadow of the Juan Maya Marote triple using "P up, MA down ,P down".This has alot more power and can be done starting w/ P down or MA down as well.

3 finger down w/ index up or 4 finger down w/ index up are both necessities.

Classical player shoud realize the high action really interferes w/ doing rasqueados correctly and is why ALL classical players do rasqueado weakly at best.
The high strings lead to the "Wire cheese slicer effect" on the fingers.

Then there is the awesome ami down, P up.(ami strike as one stroke,then P up this is done as a triplet( P ,ami,P )ami,P,ami,P.....etc.
You should be careful w/ learning all the above as your hand may suffer.The first and last one w/ diligent practice take @ 1 year.the others are a lifelong road with their many varients

[cuchares]

have always loved this video of Diego del Gastor, hard to tell is he is using three of four fingers, looks like four, either way they sound great,,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W74IVr_90CQ&NR=1

Derry

3 fingers down ;index up.Industrial strength.Sabicas used the same.
Then there is the "mariposa" ;all down, all up ,one finger at a time.

[cuchares]

Hey guys socks are for feet.
Try buying a 10 cent kitchen sponge.Cut it into finger wide strips and insert under strings by the bridge.
One sponge is a lifetime supply for you and several friends.They come in a variety of colors for your many moods :-)

[ronjazz]

Hey guys socks are for feet.
Try buying a 10 cent kitchen sponge.Cut it into finger wide strips and insert under strings by the bridge.
One sponge is a lifetime supply for you and several friends.They come in a variety of colors for your many moods :-)

One can also wet them for humidification purposes!!!

[Derry]

I get hammered from the DW for 15 minutes of various scales, would hate to think what her comment would be practicing RASQ:D

I always those in my studio where she does not hear,,

she does love my playing but when it becomes repetitive here comes the comments,,

I'm a three finger player,,

Derry