New Loriente Flamenca Negra Guitar

[sprucetop21]

Hey,

Has anyone heard of Loriente's new Carmen model being offered as a "Negra" with rosewood back & sides? And has anyone played it? Is it comparable or different frrom there traditional model? And finally, do either of the models have that "flamenco" sound? I'm looking to sell one of my classical guitars & purchase a flamenco

Thoughts?

[sprucetop21]

Let me clarify by saying that I have played an older Loriente Carmen that seemed to sound more like a hybrid classical than a flamenco.... I've been told that the newer Carmen's differ slightly from the older ones..... not sure how true this is though.

[Y-2-H]

I would suggest you to get a Tomatito guitar by luthier Vicente Carrillo I’m sure they’re awesome. I didn't like Carmen so much but to be fair I only heard it on 1 recording which many times can be unfair to the guitars!

[Dave Tate]

Hey,

Has anyone heard of Loriente's new Carmen model being offered as a "Negra" with rosewood back & sides? And has anyone played it? Is it comparable or different frrom there traditional model? And finally, do either of the models have that "flamenco" sound? I'm looking to sell one of my classical guitars & purchase a flamenco

Thoughts?

This is true. They were actually supposed to be available already, but now it's looking like March. I have no reason to doubt they'll be outstanding. The latest Carmen design is just so good, and VERY flamenco sounding. Better than any "factory" guitar I've ever played.

[Dave Tate]

I have played an older Loriente Carmen that seemed to sound more like a hybrid classical than a flamenco

Ditto. The old ones were not nearly as flamenco as the current ones. In fact, the very earliest versions were little more than yellow-colored classicals, as far as I'm concerned. They've come a long way.

[David_Norton]

In fact, the very earliest versions were little more than yellow-colored classicals, as far as I'm concerned.

Dave, you say this like it's a BAD thing...! :D

[tanolonco]

hearing the loriente carmen was nothing more than a "yellow colored classical guitar" really makes me skeptical of products pushed by g.s.i. since day one the carmen was touted as having the "gypsy flare" of a barbero or a santos implying the guitar had the sound similiar to a barbero or santos. these two guitar makers did not make hybrid sounding guitars or yellow classicals--they made flamenco guitars of the highest ranking. now it turns out, per the tag line used, santos and barbero guitars were more classical than flamenco. interesting!

g.s.i. why not get it right from the start. if a company is going to make a flamenco guitar, make a flamenco guitar and not a yellow colored classical. sadly, most factory flamenco guitars fall into this category. they are too heavy which with about 15 minutes added labor could be made much lighter. i suspect the carmen was built too heavy for its own good. i

[nickc]

Let's not get overly upset about this and make Dave look like a bad guy and GSI look like liars. We all know only too well you get what you pay for, and for less than 2 grand new, you don't get much in the way of a guitar. At least it's pretty to look at and ultimately it's going to be you, the guitarist, who's going to determine how good a guitar sounds even more than the guitar itself. Think back to those recordings Grisha made at GSI, performing on instruments that went from less than $2,000 to more than $10,000 dollars. They all sounded pretty good, didn't they? Direct you anger at yourself and be a better player and don't be obsessed about the advertising copy for a guitar you don't own and probably would never buy anyway, and, above all, please don't be angry with me for writing this.

[tanolonco]

nickc--nowhere did i call anyone a liar nor did i slam dave, actually i find it refreshing to hear an honest review. the only word i used that would hint of anything unfavorable was "skeptical". interesting that you invoked images of anger, etc.--not quite sure why you think i should direct anger towards myself--seems more like an issue within yourself but that is another issue unto itself. i did, however, say that i found it unsettling the carmen has used the tag line implying it has/had qualities of a santos and barberos which, it appears, is not the case. this tag line has been used almost from day one (about 6+ years).

someday i hope the tired old argument that a guitarist will make the guitar sound somehow different than it is capable of sounding will be put to rest--for good. this is poor application of scientific principles (yes one can invoke scientific prinicples here) as well as poor logic. to determine the variance between two guitars one would use the same guitarist. to determine the variance between two guitarists one would use the same guitar. since the point of shopping for a guitar is to select the "best" guitar one should, following basic scientific and logic principles, keep a variable constant--that is the guitarist. this is not say a good guitarist cannot get more out of a guitar than a poor guitar, we know this to be true, but in this scenario it is the guitarist being measured and not the guitar.

as to the cost of said guitars. there are many companies who are making inexpensive good flamenco guitars. these companies are bold enough to make them light.

[NGiorgio]

From the description of the Carmen ... on this site and I believe has been this way since the guitar was first offered,

"An aggressive flamenco with quick attack and bite, the Carmen has the gypsy flare of the great Barbero and Santos flamencos. Easy, low action and a very punchy sound make the Carmen the ideal instrument for both accompanist and solo performer."

Draw your own conclusions here. Not to mention that the earlier versions had label with a stamped signature which made it appear to be a luthier made instrument.

Recently, on a well respected flamenco forum, a poster listed flamenco luthiers from the west coast. The California list included Antonio Loriente, of Santa Monica, Ca. I questioned the poster on this and he stated that someone told him they had such a guitar. I exlained the situation, and he removed the name from the list.

To be fair, G.S.I. came clean on the misrepresentation of the Antonio Loriente line and changed the label. A bad taste still remains to those in the know. With all due respect to Dave Tate and G.S.I. it is nice to see that they took steps to rectify both the label situation as well as to improve the Carmen, but perhaps some of that came a little late for some of us.

[nickc]

Who do you know who's making good light-weight, inexpensive flamenco guitars?

[NGiorgio]

Who do you know who's making good light-weight, inexpensive flamenco guitars?

I know you addressed this to Keith, but allow me to join in here.

First, let's define inexpensive ....... ;-)

[tanolonco]

Francisco Navarro comes to mind. I have heard a lot of people rave about his guitars.

[nickc]

I have a Francisco Navarro Classical guitar that I purchased used, and it is a fantastic guitar with great volume and beautiful tone equal or better than other guitars I have owned which cost me much, much more.

[NGiorgio]

OK, I agree, we have Francisco Navarro. I am very pleased with my Navarro blanca. But what is the price range of an inexpensive, lightly built flamenco guitar for this discussion?

[nickc]

That's hard to define, because if you only have $500 to spend, then even $1000 is a lot. However, I think when this thread started we had in mind guitars $2000 or less, but the truth is, I think, if you can get a really first-rate guitar for less than $5000, it's a bargain, although it's not inexpensive.
I don't think that answers your question, but it's the best I can do. By the way, which style flamenco of Navarro do you have, Santos, Reyes, Barbero or something else?

[tanolonco]

$600 - $900 low end of inexpensive

$900 - $1500 middle inexpensive

$1500 - $2000 high end of inexpensive

how is this? we can comment on each of the 3 categories.

The thing is, it does not take much more time and money to shave off wood to make a $1000 flamenco lighter. I think the thinking is that if a company makes the guitar lightweight consumers will damage it and a company's reputation is then on the line. However, if the same company makes them light they perform better and up goes the reputation.

[NGiorgio]

That's hard to define, because if you only have $500 to spend, then even $1000 is a lot. However, I think when this thread started we had in mind guitars $2000 or less, but the truth is, I think, if you can get a really first-rate guitar for less than $5000, it's a bargain, although it's not inexpensive.
I don't think that answers your question, but it's the best I can do. By the way, which style flamenco of Navarro do you have, Santos, Reyes, Barbero or something else?

OK I tend to agree with what you are saying and for the purpose of this discussion, under $2000. There are a lot of them even with the lousy euro/dollar deal. Just a few which I have had some experience with .....

Hermanos Sanchis Lopez, has one model, all solid woods under 2K. Valeriano Bernal, as well. These two I have had personal experience with and they are light weight decent flamenco guitars, with low string height, low profile bridges etc. Great buys can be had used, on these. I'm sure that there are a few others. I will get to them at another time.

My Navarro is his concert model. Cedar/cypress. Purchased it new from a on-line dealer. "List" price, around $1500. I paid a lot less. Some great buys out there from Mexican luthiers. Salvador Castillo is a good one, however his prices (new) are over the 2K figure.;-)

[NGiorgio]

$600 - $900 low end of inexpensive

$900 - $1500 middle inexpensive

$1500 - $2000 high end of inexpensive

how is this? we can comment on each of the 3 categories.

The thing is, it does not take much more time and money to shave off wood to make a $1000 flamenco lighter. I think the thinking is that if a company makes the guitar lightweight consumers will damage it and a company's reputation is then on the line. However, if the same company makes them light they perform better and up goes the reputation.

Keith, the only decent flamenco I can come up with in the 600 to 900 range is Navarro's estudio model. All solid with a list of $900. What have you got in that range?

I know that Esteve has a few in the under 2K range but the only one I have played, although being light and all solid was just about un-playable for me with too high an action and a way too high bridge and no break angle (and no room for adjustment).

Hey guys, if you look hard enough you can find a decent flamenco for under 2K but it isn't easy.

I gotta go finish up a couple of cejillas.;-)

[tanolonco]

huipe guitars have received a lot of very positive reviews.

to get back to the topic of the thread and maybe some luthiers can pipe in--why are factory flamenco guitars so heavy? a heavy flamenco is basically a yellow classical. with machines doing a lot of the work i cannot imagine why it would be so difficult to take off 0.5mm to 1.0mm more of the top, sides and back. why is so much lacquer applied? will the guitar look that bad with one or two less coats? nick brings up a good point about the bridge--why are so many factory guitar flamenco bridges the height of a classical bridge? trust me, a lower bridge does make a difference.

[NGiorgio]

Keith, as to lighter weight construction, I believe it is more than just sanding the back and sides thinner, and applying a lighter coat of lacquer. The bracing will have to be lighter as well as the bridge. Lighter construction also makes the guitar a bit more delicate and more prone to damage for a mass produced instrument that will be knocked around quite a bit before it gets to its eventual owner.

I think it is just dollars which dictate how the factory made flamencos are produced. Most are going to be made to meet a certain price point. That price probably doesn't allow for true flamenco construction methods.

My problem with all of this is that if you call it a flamenco guitar it should be light weight, have a shallow neck angle, a low profile bridge, low action and a proper golpeador installed.

[sprucetop21]

So, this thread originally started with me asking about the Loriente Carmen guitar. Does anyone have a suggestion as to which flamenco they'd recommend for under 2k? I really want something that sounds like a flamenco guitar.... Also, does anyone know of a flamenco negra besides the Loriente model for under 2K? I'm not opposed to blancas, but I would prefer a flamenca negra just because they seem to be really bright without being "overly" bright.

[sprucetop21]

Also does anyone know of a good sounding flamenco guitar with pegs instead of tuning machines? And, are there any thoughts on pegs/ tuners in general?

[NGiorgio]

So, this thread originally started with me asking about the Loriente Carmen guitar. Does anyone have a suggestion as to which flamenco they'd recommend for under 2k? I really want something that sounds like a flamenco guitar.... Also, does anyone know of a flamenco negra besides the Loriente model for under 2K? I'm not opposed to blancas, but I would prefer a flamenca negra just because they seem to be really bright without being "overly" bright.

I can recommend the guitars of Francisco Navarro. There are a few online dealers who carry these guitars and there are two all solid models under 2K which come in either blancas or negras. Pegs are also available

With respect to our hosts here I will not name them but if you goggle Francisco Navarro you will get all sorts of info.;-)

[Jubilee Valence]

....application of scientific principles (yes one can invoke scientific prinicples here)....to determine the variance between two guitars one would use the same guitarist. to determine the variance between two guitarists one would use the same guitar. since the point of shopping for a guitar is to select the "best" guitar one should, following basic scientific and logic principles, keep a variable constant--that is the guitarist.....

:mrgreen:

I'm glad I read this thread "backwards" so that I could apply Keith's math to Nick's suggestion.....

Yep, there's a fella out there that sells flamenco (and classicals too) guitars complete with soundbytes of all the instruments being played by a few great performers...

That's quite a popular marketing tool being used by boutique outfits but is also available to the curious or interested passers-by...

btw I don't think Dave made any grievous error
(intentional or otherwise)--more like an 'excited prospect' of a thing--but the "yellow" comment was pretty hilarious!? ;)

[tanolonco]

nick, i can understand your point about making the braces and bridge lighter but given how heavy these so called flamenco guitars, hereafter referred to as yellow classicals, it seems to me one could lighten them up without really spending that much more and if anything one could actually save money per guitar (more slices to the inch if you will) and not put that at risk. fragile china and glassware is routinely sent around the world and it seems to hold up quite well. it seems if one is going to make a guitar and call it a flamenco guitar one should at least approach a close proximity.

sprucetop21--there is another line of guitars made in mexico that might be worth investigating. if you e-mail me i will give you the name. it seems that more and more mexican luthiers are getting it right and given the mexican economy and the euro exchange, buying mexican may be the way to go. i am sure sherry brener probably has some made in spain labels one could stick on a mexican built guitar to give the guitar a "spanish aura" to it.

and then there is the chinese. anyone played a kenny hill chinese flamenco?

[Todd]

Its a real shame Richard Brune stopped making the Model 30-F's.

Super high end sound and playability, light as a feather, and mid level price.
If you can find one on Ebay, snatch it up!

TK

[Section10]

o good a forum about these.
Dave, I emailed you last week about the Carmen, did you get it?

When I get my Bernabe sold i might get an affordable flamenco as well. Might look into carmen or around that price.

I owned a Maldonado and Paco de lucia blanca before.....how would this compare to them? I probably would want an all-out flamenco sound, raspy and all to contrast my classical.

[Dave Tate]

hearing the loriente carmen was nothing more than a "yellow colored classical guitar" really makes me skeptical of products pushed by g.s.i. since day one the carmen was touted as having the "gypsy flare" of a barbero or a santos implying the guitar had the sound similiar to a barbero or santos. these two guitar makers did not make hybrid sounding guitars or yellow classicals--they made flamenco guitars of the highest ranking. now it turns out, per the tag line used, santos and barbero guitars were more classical than flamenco. interesting!

g.s.i. why not get it right from the start. if a company is going to make a flamenco guitar, make a flamenco guitar and not a yellow colored classical.

To clarify - I was referring to very early prototypes that I don't believe the public ever saw or purchased. Regardless, the first real generation of these were nowhere near as flamenco as they are now, and were indeed a little bulkier. You'd be amazed how hard it is to get a good design ironed out in such a way that it can be produced reliably in reasonable numbers.

For what it's worth - most products do tend to improve over time, and tweaked and refined with each generation. For a non-guitar perspective, think about how cars have improved over there years. I don't see that as a bad thing in any way, and I certainly wouldn't fault Honda because their 1980s Civic isn't as refined as their latest one.

Dave

[NGiorgio]

Hey Dave,

How about some sound samples of the latest Carmen.

[Dave Tate]

Great idea, we'll get to work on it, and will let you know when something is uploaded.

[NFalla]

Its a real shame Richard Brune stopped making the Model 30-F's.

Super high end sound and playability, light as a feather, and mid level price.
If you can find one on Ebay, snatch it up!

TK

Technically this is not true. Richard didn't actually "Make" or "Build" these guitars. Asturias Japan did. Although Richard did provide them with the bridges and some back and side wood if i remember correctly.

In any case TK you are right............they are very nice!!:cool:

i once mentioned years ago on this forum about a "Negra" version, and Tim response was at that time they didn't feel the need to produce them.
i would sure like to try one out if they do ever transpire.

As to a Killer flamenco for $2000 bucks ???
My good friend Federico Sheppard has just started a new flamenco model, that i just tried out this weekend, for a Base price of $2000 USD.
Completely made by him with all solid woods, rosewood peg tuners, all (french polish) shellac finish, ebony fretboard and EXTREMELY light !!!!
These guitars truly do have that old world gypsy flare!!!
If anyone has any doubts about Federico's building, i advise you to contact Mr. Richard Brune' and ask.;)

Or if you would like............PM me and i'll put you in contact.

[tanolonco]

faya, true brune did not make the model todd mentioned but that is the point--it was a factory built guitar designed by someone who knows what they are doing.

dave, true things do evolve but there is some error in your logic in using automobiles as an analogy. a 1980 honda was a function of 1980 technology and was built based on that technology (air bags and abs brakes were not available at that level). however, the design was, we assume, based on all knowledge up to that point. a 2010 honda is based on 2010 technology but again, we assume, it is based on all of the knowledge available in 2010.

the guitar, though, has not really changed in designed (smallman aside) that much and the theory in 1980, is the same now for flamenco guitars--the lighter the built (up to a point) the more responsive. use the 51 barbero as an example. a guitar built today, 2010, almost 60 years later, based on that design will pretty much incorporate the same features and theory--it will be lightly built. if one were to make a factory guitar based on the 51 barbero one would make it light--at least one would make it as light as possible (within reason) with the intent of trying to get that factory guitar as close to the ideal as possible. it may not get close but building them like a tank will not get them any closer, rather, it pushes them further away from the ideal.

[nickc]

Maybe something else is at play here. You notice how car manufacturers always make the cheap cars ugly. They look cheap. That's what the manufacturer wants. Otherwise who would pay $100,000 for a car that has the same styling as a $10,000 automobile. So maybe for $1500, the guitar company wants to give you something that sounds like a $1500 guitar. They don't want to give you a Reyes for $1500. It would kill the market for the higher priced guitars where the real profit can be made.

[Tom Blackshear]

Maybe something else is at play here. You notice how car manufacturers always make the cheap cars ugly. They look cheap. That's what the manufacturer wants. Otherwise who would pay $100,000 for a car that has the same styling as a $10,000 automobile. So maybe for $1500, the guitar company wants to give you something that sounds like a $1500 guitar. They don't want to give you a Reyes for $1500. It would kill the market for the higher priced guitars where the real profit can be made.

This is interesting, as I had this situation happen with Chris Kamen when I made my first copy of a Reyes for him. What can you do when there is a copy for a faction of the price that stands on its own in a quality comparison with a much higher priced instrument?

If you are selling both instruments, you have to watch how you present the comparisons, very carefully :-)

RE Brune told me that he could use a guitar that would retail for around 5 to 6000 dollars if I could find a way to build them with not so much time involved. I'm still trying to figure this one out ;-)

[sprucetop21]

OK I tend to agree with what you are saying and for the purpose of this discussion, under $2000. There are a lot of them even with the lousy euro/dollar deal. Just a few which I have had some experience with .....

Hermanos Sanchis Lopez, has one model, all solid woods under 2K. Valeriano Bernal, as well. These two I have had personal experience with and they are light weight decent flamenco guitars, with low string height, low profile bridges etc. Great buys can be had used, on these. I'm sure that there are a few others. I will get to them at another time.

My Navarro is his concert model. Cedar/cypress. Purchased it new from a on-line dealer. "List" price, around $1500. I paid a lot less. Some great buys out there from Mexican luthiers. Salvador Castillo is a good one, however his prices (new) are over the 2K figure.;-)


where? Sprucetop21@gmail.com

[sprucetop21]

;) Not to be disrespectful to GSI because this is a great forum.... but in all honesty I'm shopping around for the best flamenco guitar in the sub 2k price range.... And, that doesn't necessarily = the cheapest. Ultimately it will probably come down to the Navarro or the Loriente Negra once I hear samples of both. And, if I were to buy the Loriente, it would be from GSI anyway....

[NGiorgio]

where? Sprucetop21@gmail.com

I purchased mine from an Ebay seller. It is a good place if you know what you are looking for and the reputable dealers/sellers usually give you a trial period.

I think that the new Carmen could be a very good buy. Dave Tate knows what he is talking about.;-)

[Tim Miklaucic]

Jut for the record, Dave Tate made a mistake when he called the last generation "yellow classicals". To be clear he was simply trying to hammer home the point that the new Carmens were much, much improved. The old models were wonderful instruments and, up till that time, we felt they were the best sub-2000 flamenco on the market. Apart from the new Carmens, we still do.

Let's not fry him for his enthusiasm. Nor should we doubt everything he says in the future. GSI's staff does a pretty good job of representing all products as accurately as possible. One glib comments doesn't change that or the guitars in question.

Bottom line is that one has to hear a guitar to decide about the instrument. We won't bother to showcase the old model, but there are several out there and most people are very satisfied with what they have. The new ones are here (or will be) for any of you to come and try or order on approval. It's pretty simple...

By they way, GSI has a new studio/salon being completed right now at the 1455 19th St address. It's pretty amazing with 30 foot ceilings, new practice rooms, hardwood floors, and more. Anyone near enough should try to stop by.

Tim

[tanolonco]

Tim, I do not think anyone was trying to fry Dave nor put him in a position to be fried (by you as you are his boss). My point is that there are way too many factory flamenco guitars out there built like a tank and sadly the sound produced is lacking. Case in point--I tried a few Solistas flamenco guitars and found them to be lacking in the flamenco end but pretty good in the classical end--a yellow classical.

[Todd]

Shouldnt it be "Orange classicals"? :-)

My classical guitar is yellow.
My flamenco guitar is orange.

T

[Tim Miklaucic]

I am aware that Dave T gets excited about new stuff. That's generally a good thing, but sometimes that means that he gets carried away. As a result of his comment some posters suggested that maybe GSI doesn't mean what it says. I simply wanted to clarify that we did and we do -- even though sometimes we look back and think we could and should have done better. I suppose this is true of all of us at one time or another.

For the record, it's very, very hard to make a light, high quality flamenco guitar in a production environment. The new Carmens are amazing, but I think we have also done a very good job on Cordoba F7 and GK Studio in the low price category. If you have a chance try to check those out. I'd like to hear the comments of our Forum members.

Cheers,

Tim

[NGiorgio]

In case anyone would like to see what the "Carmen" negra looks like.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Flamenco-guitar-Antonio-Loriente-Carmen-Rosewood_W0QQitemZ260563281858QQcmdZViewItemQQptZG uitar?hash=item3caac827c2

Looks really good in those pix.;-)

[tanolonco]

Tim M: I think it is good that Dave gets excited about his work--better that than someone who does not. I also like, as I posted, that he was truthful.

I think it would have been good, which you did late in the thread, to say that factory flamenco guitars are built the way they are for a lot of reasons and if people, say myself, cannot deal with it then they should pony up the dollars and get a non-factory guitar. There is nothing wrong with laying the truth out there.