****GSI Contradiction Not Happy

[Teknoguitar]

I have done business with GSI purchasing expensive guitars and services. Conde A27, Ramirez 1af.

Both guitars after exceeding my trial time period were not what they should be for their price. They were returned at my loss.

The Ramirez was sent back to GSI for consignment and sat for over 5 months with nothing priced at $7,500.00 which is what I paid. I have since had the guitar on ebay for over a year and just now dropped the price to $5,500.00

http://cgi.ebay.com/2004-Ramirez-Acoustic-Guitar-1AF-SP-CY-Flamenco-Model_W0QQitemZ130383208179QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuit ar?hash=item1e5b71def3


I contacted GSI about buying the Ramirez back for $5,000.00 and they said no..."not in a position to do that". I was a little pissed and the more I think of it I am done with GSI. So, when you contact GSI about a guitar they will build the value of it up in every way possible, but won't even buy one of their own guitars back for $2,500 less than what they sold it for?...real cool.

When I asked how they stay in business I was told how "incredibly well" they are doing...hmm. So well you can't buy a guitar back for $2,500.00 less than what you sold it for? I actually had the french polish work re-touched by GSI bringing the guitar to mint condition...except for the 2 finish nicks it got while on consignment with GSI.

In closing this is not a post of someone with unreasonable bitching. This is what it is...how I have been treated by GSI. Just amazing how valuable these guitars are when GSI is selling them to you and how they are worthless to them if you were to try and sell one back.

[nickc]

GSI is very clear about their Purchase Policy. This is your problem, not theirs. In my experience, and I have sold quite a number of guitars on eBay, you are lucky to get half what you paid. So I would say your Ramirez is still overpriced. It is also my experience that the best guitars do not come from the big-name shops like Ramirez and Conde, rather from individual luthiers who work alone.

[Dave Tate]

I have done business with GSI purchasing expensive guitars and services. Conde A27, Ramirez 1af.

Both guitars after exceeding my trial time period were not what they should be for their price. They were returned at my loss.

The Ramirez was sent back to GSI for consignment and sat for over 5 months with nothing priced at $7,500.00 which is what I paid. I have since had the guitar on ebay for over a year and just now dropped the price to $5,500.00

http://cgi.ebay.com/2004-Ramirez-Acoustic-Guitar-1AF-SP-CY-Flamenco-Model_W0QQitemZ130383208179QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuit ar?hash=item1e5b71def3


I contacted GSI about buying the Ramirez back for $5,000.00 and they said no..."not in a position to do that". I was a little pissed and the more I think of it I am done with GSI. So, when you contact GSI about a guitar they will build the value of it up in every way possible, but won't even buy one of their own guitars back for $2,500 less than what they sold it for?...real cool.

When I asked how they stay in business I was told how "incredibly well" they are doing...hmm. So well you can't buy a guitar back for $2,500.00 less than what you sold it for? I actually had the french polish work re-touched by GSI bringing the guitar to mint condition...except for the 2 finish nicks it got while on consignment with GSI.

In closing this is not a post of someone with unreasonable bitching. This is what it is...how I have been treated by GSI. Just amazing how valuable these guitars are when GSI is selling them to you and how they are worthless to them if you were to try and sell one back.

Sorry you feel you've been treated unfairly. This hurts me to read (especially on my own website), as you and I have worked closely together over the years, and I've always enjoyed chatting with you. We have worked hard to accommodate you whenever possible, and I do think we're always been quite reasonable. It seems the problem is that I was unable to buy your Ramirez at the very moment you asked me?

As I explained, I was unable to purchase your 1aF back from you because we already had several new ones on order, and we were simply not in a position to buy that model; it had nothing to do with the price you were offering. Without getting into a long-winded discussion on profit margins, retail values & wholesale values in the music industry, let me clarify again that it wasn't an issue with your offer price, it was an issue of keeping our inventory the way it needs to be. We just don't keep a blank checkbook constantly open in case someone decided they're no longer happy with a guitar they were previously thrilled with. (Your 1aF, for the record, is a fantastic guitar.)

I have to ask you to understand that we're running a business, with a complex accounting system in place, and that often means needing to stick to our policies. We don't have a formal buy-back policy or guarantee, but I'm always happy to do what I can. The best I could do at the time was take it on trade (which you didn't want to do), or consign your guitar for the very same price you paid, which we did. You decided to take it back after it did not sell within a few months. I wish I could have sold it quickly for you, but it has been a slightly unpredictable market in recent years. I did the best I could.

If you'd like to discuss this further, I'd like to ask you to contact us directly. I don't think anything has occurred that justifies this public posting.

Regards,
Dave

[83Reyes]

Dave,

This guy strikes me as rather unstable, and I must agree that I see no fault of GSI in the situation he's describing. You're under no obligation to buy his guitar back simply because he wants you to.

You have plenty of used guitars in stock, so clearly there are people there happily working deals with you. Also, while you didn't get into this aspect (understandable), I owned a music store back in the day, and I know all about margins. That $5000 offer isn't as enticing to a dealer as this guy might think, because he's thinking in terms of a retail buyer. Most stores need to make a steady 30-40% margin just to cover their overhead, let alone profit! It's tough for people who aren't in the retail world to grasp the concept of retail vs. wholesale pricing. I dealt with this kind of nonsense every day and boy I'm glad I don't anymore.

Finally...this is your forum! You should delete this thread before it gives someone the wrong impression.

Lawrence

[Sandra]

You should delete this thread before it gives someone the wrong impression.
Actually, I think it speaks volumes for GSI to allow it to stand. OP was a bit of a whiner. He had a trial period, he made his choice to keep it. GSI's trade-in policy is clearly stated.

[Teknoguitar]

Ah, just as I thought the GSI ass kissing would start. Read what I am saying and pull your heads out.

I purchased understanding the return policy. The point I am making if you would read is that a Ramirez 1af would not even be bought back for $5,000.00!??

This is my argument. To be told how valuable a guitar is and actually improve it cosmetically by having GSI do finish touch up to ultimately be told by GSI they are not interested in the guitar.

My argument is in the value of these guitars...depending on what side of the transaction you are on. Understand that.
Yes, hurry and remove the post because I am so unstable.

[nickc]

How is this any different from any other luxury item you might buy? Buy an expensive watch, jewelry or a car, keep it for 6 months and then ask the dealer you purchased it from how much he will give you for it. A guitar is no different.

[Y-2-H]

To be honest I’ve seen places who build guitars up and even lie about their properties to a really unbelievable level and GSI aren’t one of those places! Not even close!!!

[Derry]

no ass kissing here as I have never purchased from Dave and most likely will never,, I do enjoy his web site and chatting with other players,,

I own & play two of GV Rubios best guitars and have passed on some outstanding buys (40% of street price) because my finances were not able to support the purchase at that moment and yes I could have made a few bucks reselling them,,

I don't think ya have to be in business to understand there are times when the pocketbook cannot handle our desires,, I'm 69 years of age and the economics we are experiencing these days are the toughest I have seen,,

Derry

[Jubilee Valence]

.......were not what they should be for their price....

I don't get it....

Just "what" should they be for their price?

You bought the best of the best from the best....
(no doubt with the requisite "case candy...")

And now you're deep into the realm of panic dumping it to the worse possible scenario......why?

I don't get it....

You can't possibly fix a financial predicament by dumping such a possesion...ever....so "why?"

I don't get it....

Man, I "lost" everything that I've worked for all my life and am starting completely over at age 54...and *happy & balanced for the first time since I can remember....
(* they'll all tell you that...)

I have only 2 instruments left from my collection but in no way, shape or form would I sell my Pepe Vergara 1AF for any price....

Read: "any dollar figure"

Certainly not for $7500....nor $17,500....

I'm guessing that it's not a money issue.....

Sounds more like pride...

Either way....dump it?

You lose...

Keep it?

String it up.....record it....nick it up....play the HECK out of it (break it in dude...) & you might somehow see it in a new light....

A more profitable one...

In closing: Thay all told me to "get over it...." Four years later, I did.
____

btw....

Think about selling a used guitar, a Ramirez 1AF....

"Pristeen condition--except for 2 tiny nicks while on consignment.....with the house that sold it to me..."--but it didn't move fast enough. Make offer.

or...

"Almost new 1AF, original ("case candy..." ;) ) with slight signs of breaking in...will consider serious offers from able players"

One's a dump....

One's an adventure...

[benny]

I have done business with GSI for a number of years buying guitars, trading an instrument towards an up grade,returning an instrument within the contract guidelines and have always been well taken care of regarding my intentions.I think one should treat others the way they themselves would wish to be treated,in this case respectfully! There are a great many who view this forum and would choose not to see postings that are so angry and disrespectful,and in the case of post#6 vulgar. We need to be mindful of others when using the forum.
Benny:|

[tanolonco]

gotta go with g.s.i. here. their return policy is pretty clearly written. however, i think 48 hours is a little too short--i think 72 hours would be more appropriate--but it is not my business so what i think will not change their policy.

i understand the guitar was purchased for $7.5K and then sent back to be sold on consignment which did not happen and now the buyer wants g.s.i. to buy it back since he could not find a buyer on e-bay. boy i wish every purchase i was unhappy with could be returned and a sum of money per my desire would be given to me. if the buyer did not like it he could have sent it back to g.s.i. for an exchange given their 30 day policy. why he chose not to do so is not clear from his post.

i can appreciate the buyer's situation but there are 2 rules we all have to live by: think before you act and accept the consequences of your decision/behavior. it sounds like the buyer either did not pay heed to the former or latter.

my post is not butt smooching as i have nothing to gain from siding one way or the other. but i must add that the buyer/starter of this thread is acting like a spoiled brat throwing a tantrum who relied on his daddy to bail him out when he made a boo-boo.

teckno, g.s.i. ain't your daddy.

[riffmeister]

http://cgi.ebay.com/2004-Ramirez-Acoustic-Guitar-1AF-SP-CY-Flamenco-Model_W0QQitemZ130383208179QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuit ar?hash=item1e5b71def3

Bought new for $7.5K, sold used on ebay for $5.3K.

That's a 30% loss which is about par for the course. Live and learn.

Maybe next time buy used and then when you turn around to sell, the loss won't be so bad. (wait a minute, am I allowed to say that on GSI's forum??) :p

[Jubilee Valence]

I wonder when the dump date was......

Moving right along....here's the orange one....

http://i.ebayimg.com/23/!Bp(7Ngw!2k~$(KGrHqEH-DMEuWiBwRvGBLrEw6bcPw~~_35.JPG
(slightly broken in...)

Oooops!!! I thought we're not supposed to dump on this site..

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Sandra]

Maybe next time buy used and then when you turn around to sell, the loss won't be so bad. (wait a minute, am I allowed to say that on GSI's forum??) :p
Why not? GSI sells used guitars. What do you think they do with trade-ins? ;) I bought my Woodfield used at GSI. For those of us who can't afford $10K guitars, they have some excellent used bargains. 8-)

[Cheech]

Sorry things worked out for you the way they did. but I agree with Sandra in that the mere fact the GSI posted your thread is a credit to them. The world economy has seen better days and luxury items such as expensive concert guitars, aren't selling like they did maybe 5 years ago. When I bought my guitar from Dave in 06 it was preceded by six months of conversations, anal retentive on my part, and I can say that the guitar's better now then when I bought it.

I hope things get better for you..

[NFalla]

i'm constantly selling guitars for way less than what i paid.

it's just the nature of the game.

Then again.....i'd never own another Ramirez or Conde,<again that is),.........;).......read into that how you will.

Hi Jubi!:cool:

[Section10]

if $7500 new and then played it becomes used.

The used selling price would be about $5500-$6000. The trade-in value would be maybe 80% of that would be $4400-4800 tops.

If you trade a $7500 guitar back in, no body can sell it at $7500 anymore because its been owned. People would rather buy an unused guitar at full price rather than used for even $1000 less.
You have to know this when buying a guitar.

[Pepe Vergara]

Well, think GSI is doing the right thing by publishing this post, after all it is a customer's. If he does not get his right to do it here, most likely will do it in another forum. Which could be worst. Everyone has his way of conducting business and we just need to be aware of who we make business with and make sure we understand the rules.

When someone has a large inventory that moves very slowly, buying back at any price is not a good thing for the cash flow of the business. Profits were realized and expenses incurred.

I have as an example the purchase of a brand-new car from a dealership. The car loses about 10 to 15% of its value as soon as it gets out of the door. Commissions are paid, expenses are paid, and the only way to react is with a trade-in, where the dealer can sell another guitar and help split the cost with the new owner, that is, not to make much money on the second guitar. It is a bad thing when someone is not happy with a guitar they purchased from you, this is especially true when you are the maker of the guitar and the seller. For a dealer, it is quite different. They represent lots of makers and their responsibility is with the investors, although in the long run, how they treat their customers will have a say in the company's success.

I hope you find a buyer and a solution for your change of mind. I found that it takes at least a week for someone to evaluate a guitar. That is the time I offer in my return policy. You bought two well known guitars and with good reputation. Maybe there is something you can do to get the sound you want, e.g., change strings, adjust action, etc.

Good luck.

[Enlil]

Sorry you feel you've been treated unfairly. This hurts me to read (especially on my own website), as you and I have worked closely together over the years, and I've always enjoyed chatting with you. We have worked hard to accommodate you whenever possible, and I do think we're always been quite reasonable. It seems the problem is that I was unable to buy your Ramirez at the very moment you asked me?

As I explained, I was unable to purchase your 1aF back from you because we already had several new ones on order, and we were simply not in a position to buy that model; it had nothing to do with the price you were offering. Without getting into a long-winded discussion on profit margins, retail values & wholesale values in the music industry, let me clarify again that it wasn't an issue with your offer price, it was an issue of keeping our inventory the way it needs to be. We just don't keep a blank checkbook constantly open in case someone decided they're no longer happy with a guitar they were previously thrilled with. (Your 1aF, for the record, is a fantastic guitar.)

I have to ask you to understand that we're running a business, with a complex accounting system in place, and that often means needing to stick to our policies. We don't have a formal buy-back policy or guarantee, but I'm always happy to do what I can. The best I could do at the time was take it on trade (which you didn't want to do), or consign your guitar for the very same price you paid, which we did. You decided to take it back after it did not sell within a few months. I wish I could have sold it quickly for you, but it has been a slightly unpredictable market in recent years. I did the best I could.

If you'd like to discuss this further, I'd like to ask you to contact us directly. I don't think anything has occurred that justifies this public posting.

Regards,
Dave

I know this thread is old, but I just wanted to say a few words about Dave's response to the original poster's comments: Dave your response was elegant and genuine, and Zen like in its heart felt tranquility.

Where to go from here?

Guitars, like people, are sometimes complicated, and sometimes simple. I don't know if it is luck, or wisdom, or God's grace that sometimes makes it simple?

I do know that the first guitar that I bought from GSI was a used one, and so far out of the four guitars that I have bought and traded back in, it was the best one for me, but I let it go, and still to this day I wish I had been different back then and just kept it. I don't pine for it, but it sure would be nice to have her right now. It was a beautiful guitar. A special guitar.

But you know I'm stoked that I let her go, because someone out there has that guitar right now, and after they got it they were stoked enough about it to stop looking and just keep her. The new owner was blessed with satisfaction. I know it is a "he" because I tracked him down on the web and tried to buy it back from him a few years ago, but that brilliant bastard said no :-) God bless him!

GSI, Dave, and David have always worked hard with me to satisfy my wants because they all love guitars and music. If I have ever had feelings of dissatisfaction, it had nothing to do with GSI or its policies, but everything to do with me.

GSI is a beautiful place filled with beautiful pieces of wood, and my last visit there back in July was by far the best day of that month!

[nickc]

It's hard to believe this thread continues to live. I like Dave Tate, and and I like GSI, but I don't think he was entirely honest in his reply. I had a Conde Hermanos AF25R that I had purchased from GSI that I wanted to trade back for a used Ramirez 1A, and I got that same line of garbage about how they already have a stock of AF25R's as if they don't also have a good number of Ramirez 1A's. I think this particular buyer was very unreasonable and unrealistic, but I think GSI should have at least made some kind of offer to buy back the guitar, even if it represented a big loss to the customer. Even the merciless car dealer will do that much. Then it would be up to him to accept it reject it, instead of whining like he does in this ridiculous post that somehow has us all jumping in with our opinions.

[Dave Tate]

I had a Conde Hermanos AF25R that I had purchased from GSI that I wanted to trade back for a used Ramirez 1A, and I got that same line of garbage about how they already have a stock of AF25R's as if they don't also have a good number of Ramirez 1A's.

If you wanted to trade it in within one year, you were entitled to 80% credit back on it, per our purchase policy. If it's been more than a year, adding a guitar to our inventory depends on many factors, and there's simply no guarantees. I doubt it was a "line of garbage", though. Feel free to contact me directly if you want to discuss this again. I don't recall this situation, but I'm happy to help.

I think GSI should have at least made some kind of offer to buy back the guitar, even if it represented a big loss to the customer. Even the merciless car dealer will do that much. Then it would be up to him to accept it reject it

You don't know that this didn't happen. Also, as was already mentioned, I did offer to take it on trade, as well as consign it. The seller declined and insisted on an outright purchase for no less than their asking price. We had to say no.

Putting yourself in our shoes, let's say you were a retail store and someone decides they want to sell you back an item they purchased months or years before, but you have no need for it (perhaps you were already overstocked, with even more on purchase order, scheduled to arrive shortly), let alone budgeted for it with your accounting department, plus the seller refuses to budge on their asking price and/or time frame...would you feel you still somehow need to find a way to buy it? I'm guessing not, even if it's a fantastic item.

On that note, I should also point out that we're incredibly fussy about our inventory. Each week, we're probably offered at least a dozen guitars, of all kinds and for all reasons. We're not a pawn shop and can't just take them all simply because the sellers want us to, and it often has nothing to do with price.

The bottom line is, outside of our pretty generous trade-back policies, we're not obligated to acquire anything from anyone, whenever they want, for whatever price they want. I promise to help however I can at the time, but if there's nothing I can do, I'd hope they would understand. I would never expect Best Buy to trade / buy back my television a year later, at any price, because I decided it wasn't right for me. It's simply not in their policy.

We're a business, and we need to run it and manage our inventory as we see fit. So far, it's worked out very well. We've sold 102,000+ guitars to date, and have tens of thousands of happy customers all around the globe.

While I must agree this thread has become longer than I expected, I do appreciate all the kinds words that have been written. I try very hard to accommodate and please everyone I work with, and I'm glad that shows.

Regards,
Dave

[nickc]

I want to apologize for that phrase "line of garbage". It came out quite a bit harsher than I intended. I've purchased many guitars from GSI, and I've loved every one of the them, and I've always been pleased with the service I received. That Conde I wanted to trade-in was after the one-year period. I eventually sold it on eBay a few years later, but it wasn't because I was dissatisfied with the guitar. It was a great guitar. I just needed the money at that time.