Looking for good mics for recording classical guitar music

[agn]

agn8386 - 04:03pm Mar 15, 2003 PST


I am looking for good mics to record classical guitar music. Thank you in advance for your suggestions?

[adrian]

I'd take a look at AKG mics. For example, we use two AKG C 460's. Although they've gone out of production, it was replaced by the AKG 451 reissue.

If you can afford it, try the AKG 414, or a Neumann U 87.

Good luck :D .
adrian, GSI

[Theresa]

Good choices Adrian! :D

We used 8 mics in my last seesion and I was amazed at the clarity and depth of the recordings. We used a Crown PZM floor mic; AKG 414's for ambience; AKG 451's for proximity; Shure 81's off the soundboard, and Nuemanns U87's for near fields.

[edwardcav]

8 mics?!?!? Oh and what is ambience?

[boblester]

The mic is the first part of the chain, and it is only as good as the the worst bit of gear you have.

Having said that, if you are fronting a nagra at 30 ips, go the Neumann U-87.



good luck

bob

[edwardcav]

But what about performance microphones, in a live environment? I hear good things aobut the the Shure PG-81.

:idea:

[CeremonyGod]

so which mic would you prefer? which brand should I look for? where are the important details for which i should pay attention to? and where are the big differences? coz i need a mic for my flamenco guitar...but i´m not a pro...so i think i don't need the best one, do i?

thank you for helping!

[llcjtorn]

I have a Shure Pg-81 and I really like it. it works real well and is very clear.
A man does not have a good enough memory to tell a lie.
Abraham Lincoln

[daniel711]

I use an Audio-Technica 822, a stereo cardioid condensor mic, and have excellent results with it. It's a bit expensive at $250, but I got mine on Ebay for $199, and you could probably even beat that. It beats the pants off an equally priced Sony mic that I purchased. It has an 3 pin XLR type connector.

In general, you should be looking for a "cardioid" as opposed to "shotgun" if you're recording indoors. If you describe your set up I can probably share a few more tips.

[GSI Fan]

A man does not have a good enough memory to tell a lie.
Abraham Lincoln

Thanks to computers we can lie through our teeth every single day without worry... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Mischa Z]

Hi, Folks:

This is a topic about which I can speak from some exciting current experience. In choosing mics, I did considerable research this past year, because I've been building a modest but state-of-the-art studio for my classical guitar and singing. My primary recording pre-amps are made by Millennia, and these simply define classical recording as far as I can tell. Pre-amps are easily as important as the mics themselves in recording the sound of your guitar, it is best to consider these and the mics as "the whole," don't just consider the mics alone in this selection process. I also have Trident S40 channel strips, and the pre-amps surprisingly sound very, very similiar to Millennia, it takes careful listening to hear a very slight loss of high-frequency sheen, but Trident is known for beautiful analogue sound, classic in top recording studios, but not necessarily what classical folks go for. Since the Trident strips have great EQ and compression, I use them for live sound rather than recording as a rule, and my small PA sounds pretty fantastic, almost totally "transparent," you might not even know it was there if you couldn't see it, it sounds so natural!

Anyway, John LaGrue, the owner/designer of Millennia products is a guitarist, and he owns practically ever mic and every rare tube made. He is one of the world's greatest living sound engineeers, and he advised me to go with the new wide-cardioid Schoeps mics, he considers these to be the very best mics in the entire world for recording classical guitar. A boxed, matched stereo pair cost about $2600, and discounts are impossible. But, they sound fantastic. I run Pro Tools, and use Millennia pre-amps, Mytek AD converters and the Schoeps mics on classical guitar, and this easily sounds as good as anything I've ever heard. David Russell's stuff seems equivalent in sound quality, and his engineers use Cole ribbon mics and another set of mics as well, you can get this full info off his CDs.

Some of the cheaper Audio Technica stuff sounds great as well, at about $400 a pair, if you consider this "cheap!" Its all relative, of course, but my guitar sounds as beautiful as they come, my playing is finally of age, it is finally that time of life for me to record, and I decided to do it right. I spent nearly $20,000 "tuning" a spare bedroom for sound, using a top engineer, Carl Yancher, to draw up blueprints for this project, check out Wave: Space on the Internet and look at that guy's work. It sounds AWESOME, he designs for some of the best musicians around, and the room is much more important than the mics in recording, that's for sure.

So, "ang," you did not specify your budget, this is really the only way to zero in on a best answer for you, so best of luck in your searches!

Always,

Mischa Z

[daniel711]

Mischa
I think Agn's inquiry leads me to believe that his idea is a bit more modest, however, I would be interested in how you "tune" your room. Other than soundproofing, is there really something else to consider? I'm pretty new at this also, but other than upgrading my equipment, I figure that I only need to keep ambient noise to a minimum. What are some non-equipment related considerations for optimizing results (besides soundproofing)? Thanks...

[Mischa Z]

Hi, Daniel:

Well, the bottom line is that I "tuned my room" by hiring folks who know how to do this, specifically Carl Yancher of Wave: Space, who has a fine website with many studio photos, if you search around a bit. The man who coordinated this project with Carl is one Jody Peterson, an audiophile professional recordist who actually built all the bass traps, "clouds" (hanging ceiling panels), wall panels, and door seals and panels that now cover most of the room. Jody owned a lovely recording studio for many years up at Lake Tahoe, but lost this in divorce. Since then, he has worked as an independent recordist, working primarily in the homes of famous musicians who don't like to record in studios, and he also records for Steinway pianos, documenting the sound of each new piano model, for their archives, I suppose. Anyway, I don't know Carl Yancher personally, but Jody assured me that he is amongst the top 10 sound space designers in the country, somewhat of an autistic genius, who has designed project studios for such acknowledges master studio artists as Michael Jackson. What Carl did was to take the blueprints of my high-ceilinged bedroom/office and create plans to control all frequencies in that room to within a dB (or two?) of being flat down to about 30 Hz. Now, these numbers are only what I think I remember, but what is crysal clear is that I have an absolutely superb environment now for mixing down sound. As a rule, folks who mix sound in home studios, and, unfortunately, even in perhaps a majority of pro studios, are in rooms that do not have this kind of even control. As a result, the CD that might sound great in the room can sound lousy in the car or on the boom box or the audiophile home stereo system. An "honest" sound is critical to do critical work.

My room is also great for recording in the sense that the sound is even, yet not "smothered," like in some giant pillow, for example. The many acoustic panels and bass traps would make it smothered, but vertical wood slats of different dimensions add back the sparkle, in a controlled manner, of course. So, I can get a terrific basic sound of my instrument and voice. At this point, the only thing lacking is the ambience of a great concert hall. Fortunately, there are some wonderful new innovations, such as convolution reverb programs. I literally can put the sound of my instrument into say, Sidney Opera Center, the Grand Canyon, or Carnegie Hall! My favorite room on the planet so far is a small cathedral in Ronda, Spain. Singing a Gregorian Chant in there sounds awesome, and the place is small enough to where the reflected sound does not plunge in pitch, like in a large cathedral. This room is sheer magic! Should I ever return to Andalucia and that wonderful mountain town (the finest vacation spot I've ever been to, cool in the summer, dramatic scenery, terrific food, great markets, and you can walk everywhere!), I will take my recording equipment and capture that room, and put it into my Convolution Reverb program in full Surround Sound!

Otherwise, for about $1200, Universal Audio makes a computer card that must have $100,000 or more in top studio gear emulation that is so close to the original that only a few gifted studio techies can even hear the difference. I have Cambridge EQ, Fairchild Compression (hmm, I think those classic units cost $30,000 by themselves!) LA-2A compressers and much, much more. I had gotten interested in the classic LA-2A compresser after reading that they were used to make a Norah Jones album that had simply wonderful sound quality. A year or so later, when I attended a huge audio show called "AES," I met the folks who make this wonderful compresser, and the salesman shockingly assured me that I "would not be able to tell the difference" between these expensive hardware modules and the computer soundcard. I don't know, my ears are pretty keen, but I must admit that the Universal Sound cards are the deal of the century as far as studios go. I especially love the EMT Plate reverbs, a real unit weighs about 400 lbs, I've heard, a heavy plate of tunable steel the size of a door!

The way to do this studio thing is to at least be able to borrow $, as I did, then meet folks who really know what they're doing. I met some of the top people, Summit Audio (many Rupert Neve designs) moved just down the road from where I live, in Gardnerville, Nevada. I met John Oram at his place in England (he designed the Super Beatle amps for the Beatles' Shea Stadium concert, and now he designs the wonderful, classic Trident gear), John LaGrue of Millennia, who lives just over the mountains in Placerville, California, whose pre-amps have become standard for many of the world's top orchestras. Such folks were able to guide me (and give me discounts as well, they liked my beautiful 10-string Ramirez guitar!), and as much as I spent ($40,000 or so on recording space, audiophile gear, and audiophile PA equipment), I saved a fortune, I could have spent many times that amount and not had world-class results, which I seem to have achieved.

Whew, I have two church services to sing for this a.m., gotta run! Thanks, Daniel, I hope you understand how to "tune" a room now. Actually, only a handful of folks understand this art, I urge you to consider Carl Yancher, but otherwise, call someone like Sweetwater Sound, they have much cheaper alternatives that are very decent, these folks stay on top of their products and services. If you get a computer-based recording system, PLEASE get Sweetwater to install everything, get all the bugs out for you. I bought Mac G5s from them, but did this work myself, it cost me months of frustrations and horrendous expense, for the software companies are releasing programs that have not been properly smoothed out, and it may take them a few months to rewrite. Meanwhile, you're spending a fortune in time and money trying to solve a problem that is impossible for you to solve, so, like "room tuning," get expert advice!

Best,

Mischa

[Todd]

Why on earth would you spend all that time and money
on tuning the room, mics and pres, only to run
it into Pro Tools!!!!

The WORST audio engine ever made.

The AD/DA is horrendously bad. (if you're using their hardware)

I would think you'd be using the best. Samplitude has
the best audio engine currently.

Lucid and Apogee are great for top shelf AD/DA


Ive heard the Schoeps, but i prefer KM184's.
About a thousand dollars cheaper.
I also like the Great River/ Neve strips.

But i suppose when all is said and done, its ALL about the playing.

So when do we get to hear your recordings?

You've talked it way up now, so it better be fantastic! :P :twisted:

[thraex]

that post was funny Todd! hehe

next time I go by the US, I should book recording time with some of you guys!

[Mischa Z]

Hi, Todd:

I don't use the Pro Tools AD/DAs, I use Mytek and Benchmark, preferred over Apogee by the professionals I know (Lucid is one I haven't heard reference to by either John LaGrue (Millennia owner/engineer) or by my friends from Summit Audio, and soon I will be using Millennia's own converter's in my HV-3C stereo pre-amp, as John LaGrue has been part of a group of well-known top engineers who are committed to setting a new, unequaled standard in digital conversion, and this retrofit is supposed to be released this summer.

I have a Neumann KM-184 as well, I like using it live in some situations, it sounds very natural. I usually find that 2 Schertler DYN-Gs panned into stereo are the best for live sound, though. Are you sure you heard the wide-cardioid (sometimes called "sub-cardioid") Schoeps? This is a fairly new design I believe, and it offers uncolored off-center sound, combining the qualities of an omni and a cardiod pattern in one mic, outstanding for guitar applications where a bit of room ambience is important. The KM-184 is a cardioid mic, not made for handling relfected sound, and does not have such purity, so I find the Schoeps to be terrific for recording, preferring to use an ORTF mount at least to this point in my experience, which is admittedly very limited. I have been recording a "Spanish Tango" duet for many weeks now, some fine local nylon players, and the ORTF configuration with them sounds astonishing, I must question whether any other configuration would improve recording those two.

My use of Pro Tools had only to do with the fact that it is the accepted standard in a worldwide operating system right now. It seems that for better or worse, every top studio uses Pro Tools, I see this name everytime I read a review of a top-engineered CD. I don't see these same engineers claiming to use Digidesign's converters, I have these converters in my 002 console, but I simply bypass them, as any audiophile recordist would. Whether Pro Tools was the best choice for my needs, it is certainly is way too early to tell, for I just completed the studio and I've only cut four pilots, about a month ago. My feeling after doing this was that I needed to perform lunches in a local coffehouse several days a week for a few weeks to get into concert form, building the studio had taken a tremendous toll on my playing, it had become quite an ordeal, plus, I was unable to pay my bills for about 10 years due to Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. I'm just now beginning to play at concert level again, I am almost ready for full, solo concerts with true concert repertoire again. It is almost time to re-enter my studio, a lot of joy lies ahead!

Concerning my playing, the pilots were just that. But, I DO want to post these pilots, I just don't want to pay for it, for in a few more weeks I should have "real" recordings and a website to promote my wedding performances, with a lot better downloads than MP3s. If you know of a free place to post, I'll try, but I haven't had luck with my Mac G5s since Microsoft stopped supporting Explorer for Mac, I have found my Safari simply stays in limbo with Yahoo when attempting to upload. However, I did forward two of my pilots to the facilitator of the Yahoo 10-string guitar group, and he posted these highly compressed MP3s in the group's file section, under "Amalia," my guitar's name. One is a simple 10-string version of "Greensleeves," that shows the unique resources of a chikari string on a guitar, as does my original composition/improvisation (in part using motifs in Rag Bhairavi written by Ali Akbar Khan), "Dawn on the Ganges." This is 5 minutes of a piece that I have since extended considerably, building energy toward the rising sun, in the traditional manner of developing the alap section of a raga. So, please join the 10-string group and listen. I launch via:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/10string/

I assume that you can figure out how to get to this group and join, perhaps the word "launch" is omitted when you're not a member, I don't really know.

Now, where can I hear your playing? Where are the folks on this forum posting to share their work?

All my best,

Mischa