Pumping Nylon vs. other Right Hand positions

[Bertrand Navarrete]

originally posted 02:13pm Mar 28, 2003 PST

In pumping nylon, the book preaches a "straight wrist" position for the right hand while my teacher has preached a heavier, curved wrist position. Which is better? Pumping Nylon position seems more comfortable but I am not an expert here and don't want to go against what my teacher is drilling into my head.

Any input/suggestions here would be appreciated.

[Richard Pinferi]

originally posted 11:26pm Mar 29, 2003 PST (#1 of 2)

There are two things to consider here: 1. what is more comfortable for you, and 2. Which gives you the best tone (personally, I think good tone is the more important factor). If both positions give you similar tonal qualities, then go with the most comfortable. But don't be afraid to challenge you teacher - ask why you should use a curved wrist when a flat wrist is more comfortable for you. Your teacher should be able to offer a plausible argument/explanation for doing things a certain way. If your teacher's arguments make sense to you, then take them on board before deciding. If not, then agree to disagree and just do it the way you think works best.

[donna]

originally posted 12:59am Mar 30, 2003 PST (#2 of 2)

I recently began taking lessons, and my instructor prefers the position in "Pumping Nylon". I have spent a good year and a half working on getting my right hand into the other position(like Segovia); and am now working my way out of it. I like this new position for two reasons -- it creates a warmer tone; and it protects the wrist area, thus preventing carpal tunnel syndrome. I'm am also an RN, and have been really concerned about creating a problem in my wrist by using the Segovia technique. This new position takes that worry away.

Donna

[kozmo]

You should sign up for a master class with David Tanenbaum and ask him during the Classical Guitar Cruise event.

It's an intensive performance and educational affair with concerts, master classes and beginner workshops with celebrity artists, and 4 guitar makers (Kenny Hill, Eric Sahlin, Boaz Elkayam, and Mike Peters)

www.classicalguitarcruise.com

good luck, great practicing, and inspirational performances

K

[edwardcav]

:wink: i agree with donna.

[Ramon Fermin]

I like Tennant's hand position. It's more comfortable, frees up the right hand, and allows you to get a warmer tone by being able to strike the string where the pad of your finger meets the nail. Segovia's position produces a more harsh, cold sound. I've also heard of too many players burning out their right hands by playing that way too.

[daniel711]

The MOST important consideration here is to position the right hand in its natural, relaxed state. This means the wrist is CURVED. To demonstrate this, hold your arm straight out in front of you and release all muscle tension in the wrist. What does your wrist do?? It drops DOWNWARD as gravity pulls the relaxed hand down. In order to straighten the wrist and pull up the hand, you must flex the muscles in your forearm. A straight wriste joint requires constant tension of the forearm muscles, even though you might not notice it while playing.

Good playing requires that we eliminate all unnecessary muscle tension. Always consider what position our bodies will assume when we relax our muscles.

It is a great question though....but Tennant is definitely wrong on this one!

[wbajzek]

The MOST important consideration here is to position the right hand in its natural, relaxed state. This means the wrist is CURVED. To demonstrate this, hold your arm straight out in front of you and release all muscle tension in the wrist. What does your wrist do?? It drops DOWNWARD as gravity pulls the relaxed hand down. In order to straighten the wrist and pull up the hand, you must flex the muscles in your forearm. A straight wriste joint requires constant tension of the forearm muscles, even though you might not notice it while playing.

Good playing requires that we eliminate all unnecessary muscle tension. Always consider what position our bodies will assume when we relax our muscles.

It is a great question though....but Tennant is definitely wrong on this one!

I disagree with you. allowing wrist to drop may relax the wrist, but it inhibits the movement of the fingers. There are compromises involved with any hand position, but keeping a straight wrists allows the fingers to relax more.

With a straight wrist, reach for the back of your palm with your fingers using the big knuckle only, as though you're playing a block chord. I can reach all the way back comfortably. Now try the same thing with the wrist dropped... It will create much more tension.

[daniel711]

You make a good point... I cannot move my fingers as great a distance with the wrist curved. I concede that there are compromises for each technique. I will say that I have plenty of strength and follow-through with my free stroke holding the right hand with my wrist curved. I'd like to gather more opinions on this, though.....

[wbajzek]

You make a good point... I cannot move my fingers as great a distance with the wrist curved. I concede that there are compromises for each technique. I will say that I have plenty of strength and follow-through with my free stroke holding the right hand with my wrist curved. I'd like to gather more opinions on this, though.....

This is an informal survey, but... I've been to over a dozen classical concerts in the last year, and I haven't seen anyone play with a wrist bent dropped more than about 20 degrees, including Pepe Romero. It's mostly in photos of Tarrega and Segovia that I see that hand position.

[Parzival]

Previous post: "It's mostly in photos of Tarrega and Segovia that I see that hand position."

The father of modern classical guitar and, arguably, its finest performer, no less use the 'curved wrist' position. Maybe it does have something going for it? :shock:

[M. Stephenson]

As mentined above, I think that one should what comes natural.

Wrist position is a means to an end and I think that it is up to the indivdual to experiment with different positions until one position starts to emerge as the most natural for that individual.

I also think that it has something to do with ones physical size - I think that the position for a very tall person, such as myself, would be different than for a short person.

I never think about right hand position any more. I drape my arm over the guitar so that my fingers are above the strings. My wrist does what it does with no conscious intervntion on my part.

I fall in to the slightly curved camp and I like to let my finger s stay moderatly extended. Also, I think that my wrist slightly changes position depending on the technique I am using, whcih I think is appropriate.

[wbajzek]

Previous post: "It's mostly in photos of Tarrega and Segovia that I see that hand position."

The father of modern classical guitar and, arguably, its finest performer, no less use the 'curved wrist' position. Maybe it does have something going for it? :shock:

There's no doubt that few of us would be playing classical guitar if it weren't for Segovia. Perhaps, too, he was the finest performer at his time... Generations since have picked up where he left off and surpassed him greatly (standing on his shoulders, so to speak). This is not intended to belittle him. However, I wouldn't credit any skill of his to having his wrist bent. In order to use that position for so long, he must have truly learned how to relax, because otherwise he would have injured himself seriously long before.

A great guitarist/teacher (Curt Golden) once pointed out to me that "you can't eliminate all tension in your body. If you did, you'd fall to the floor." In this case, you have a tradeoff; I would favor keeping the slight amount of tension in order to keep my wrist in a neutral position that gave my fingers the greatest ease of movement over restricting the fingers in order to keep the wrist totally relaxed. The latter is essential for many flamenco techniques, but for basic PIMA work, I wouldn't recommend it.

[wbajzek]

As mentined above, I think that one should what comes natural.

In that case, I suggest you attend a beginning classical guitar class and witness the theater of horrors of "what comes naturally" to most people :wink:

[M. Stephenson]

Yes, one should do what comes natural. I also mentioned that one needs to experiment with the different positions to find out which one is the most natural.

I think that the horrors are because the beginners do not understand the reasones for technique - once the goals of the right hand become clear then I think the student will be better able to make an informed decision as to what works for them.

When playing my Sinsonido (the guitar with the black outline for a body), I have a straight wrist. This is because the guitar has no depth.

When playing a "real" classical, I have a bend in the wrist.

I can not tell a difference in my playing either way. The wrist bend is a means to getting my fingers where I want them. Heck, even the relationship of my fingers to my hand changes with these guitars.

I think that sometimes people get to hung up on technique. Technique is a transimission of what worked for someone else and different people have different technique.

I will rephrase what I originally said - technique is a means to an end and one should go with the technique that brings then closest to that end.

[absmiths]

Just to clarify the original question - most of what is in Scott Tennant's book is not original to him. Much of his fundamental stuff comes from Aaron Shearer's second edition method. He was the first pedagogue I heard in favor of the straight wrist and relaxed technique. Even the nail shaping tips look verbatim to the Shearer method. I started using a few of the excercises in the tennant book and went back to the Shearer Slur, Ornament and Reach Exercises book and found that I was really using a poorly organized version of what was in that book.

The only thing I really use from Scott anymore are the crawls and the staccato tremolo (which I have seen elsewhere).

[ilf]

[quote="daniel711"].

Good playing requires that we eliminate all unnecessary muscle tension. Always consider what position our bodies will assume when we relax our muscles.

I think the intention when you answer is well ment,But we dont play from a totally relaxed pos.We play from what is called poise or natural tonus, its a position simular to how we wear our head, or our back.they are in a state of balance supported by many small mucles ,and we dont feel any strenght to these positions and the muscles are ready for any impuls from the brain.and dont have to be called from any totally relaxed pos.
The position we have our hand when we play is,preferable to be in a middle pos with max possibilliti fo movements .For most people I guess this is between totally straight lines, up to the mentioned 20 degre, some people with very flexible joint can make it without any pain to near 90 degree,and
some of these advocate for this handpos , because the mean that the stringshifting is equal to all fingers if you play with your knucles parralel to the string,But for a normal hand this position is out of quistion, because of the limited movements in the fingers.
ilf