What is Good Choice for a Student Guitar?

[Fernando]

Hello, I'm an adult perpetual begginer student ha ha! I've been beginning for the last 2 years ha ha. I have an inexpensive Cordoba flamenco, when I bought it I didnt even realize it was for flamenco! I bought it at Guitar Center in Long Island City, N.Y. the slaes guy was just a kid didnt know anything about classical guitars. I bought the flamenco because I really didnt know what kind of music I eventually wanted to play and the sound seemed a nice compromise between a steel string guitar and a classical. Later upon further thought I realized that what inspired me to want to learn to play guitar was hearing recordings of the late, great brazilian Baden Powell. He combined flamenco, classical and jazz techniques into a style all his own and he always used an unamplified classical guitar, I never knew the overwhelming power of a classical guitar until I heard his recordings of Thelonius Monks' "Round Midnight" or his "Samba Triste" or his "Feitinha Pro Poeta".
I've also come to love the traditional classical repertoire and I would now like to have a good beginers classical guitar. I've saved enough money that I could buy a Ramirez 1A if that were the right choice for a beginner. But from all I've read it would be a mistake to buy such a high level instrument if you hardly know how to play. I've read that a concert guitar has to be played well for the guitar to stay in good shape, I wish I knew the finer points of that, can someone explain?

What would be an excellent choice for a beginner's guitar? would a Kenny Hill "Madrid" be better than a Ramirez 4E? How about a Manuel Contreras' C-4 or C-3 ? They have the most beautiful head stock design and rosettes! And I know it may sound frivolus but the beauty of a guitar can help keep you goin in those long hours of practice! I'ts as easy to love a beatiful woman as it is a plain one ha ha ! I havent seen any Manuel Contreras' C-1s around but on his website it exists. Is buying over the internet advisable considering how important it is to hear and feel a guitar in your hands? Why doesn't Salon International move to N.Y.C. ! ha ha ! And then there are all those specs. 630,640,650 and then 50mm, and 52mm. Someone please help me I'm so confused and I want to make the right choice. Thank You for your consideration. Sincerely,

Fernando Florez

[SteveG]

Hi Fernando,

Go for what you can hear. Do you understand?...if you have the $ for the 1A then get it. It is not too much guitar if you can hear the difference from the lower end. You are an adult, a working person with the typical stresses in life (I'm assuming like myself) so treat yourself! The great sounding guitar will bring out the emotion in you and push you to get better. I am not a great player and have 2 Tezanos Perez Maestros (1 spruce top and 1 cedar, they are big Madrid guitars like Ramirez, top-end), a Gioachino Giussani and a G.V. Rubio Torres. I love the instruments! Don't get crazy over the specs, all the guitars you are mentioning including the 1A are 52mm, 650 scale. Unless you are a person with very big hands/fat fingers or unusually small, that will be fine. Enjoy!

[Miguel]

Hi Fernando,
Let's see, there are quite a few aspects to your message. As you already noticed, there are quite a few choices out there. Based on what you describe regarding your personal taste, I would probably go for a Cedar top. Cedar tends to have a richer tone than spruce: more lush, with more overtones. Spruce tends to be more focused and 'precise'. As a rule, people who like very "emotional" or romantic music (and it seems that you fall in this category) tend to go for cedar tops. On the other hand, people who like more "intellectual" music and need a very clear-cut sound tend to go for spruce tops. There is a good amount of crossover, of course, but generally speaking this seems to apply.
In terms of scale length, 650mm is the standard that seems to fit most people's hands well; so unless you have unusually large (or small) hands, I would stick to 650mm scale length.
Now, as for the investment part of things: it really depends on where you are standing and where you want to go with your music. All in all, regardless of your level of playing, owning a nicer instrument will definitely make your experience more exciting, and enjoyable. In short, you do not need to be a world-class player to "deserve" a concert-level guitar. On the other hand, if you are being price conscious, then a good student level guitar will do the trick. It's like driving a luxury car versus driving an economy car. They both serve the purpose of transporting you; the economy car is very practical but the luxury car is probably a heck of a lot more fun to drive.
That being said, there are, of course, a few different possibilities, whether you choose a concert level guitar or a student level one. Feel free to give us a call at GSI, and we'll be happy to help you choose an instrument that suits your needs.
Hope this helps. Talk to you soon.
Miguel
GSI

[David J.H.]

Hey guys,

I would add, just to quell Fernando's fears, that you don't have to play well to own a nice guitar (if i understand what you mean). The quality of care and maintenence is a big issue, though. Things to be aware of are humidity, storing the guitar in it's appropriate case, re-stringing properly (nice, secure ties), and otherwise doing your best to protect it from scratches and dings. Since you're looking to spend some cash, you'll probably be buying a guitar with a french polish. This kind of finish is significantly more delicate than lacquer. Getting down to the nitty-gritty you would want to be careful as to what materials the guitar comes into contact with. Friends of mine have had problems with types of rubber marring their french polished guitars, and although it didn't affect the sound it looked pretty bad. You want a nice, shiny instrument for what you're paying for a Ramirez 1A, and taking care of it will considerably increase it's resale value later on. ... Or you could forego the 1A, get a Yamaha, and buy yourself a nice used car. I hear hondas get great mileage and you don't have to worry about french polish. Beep beep.

[nikpearson]

Hello Fernando,

You've already been given some good advice. I'd just add that when I first started playing I wasn't sure of exactly what comprised a great classical guitar sound for me. It takes time to understand what you like about the sound of a guitar. Everyone will have a different answer. I'd be reluctant to spend the kind of money a Ramirez 1A would set me back without comparing it to other similar priced guitars. You may also find that buying a good quality student instrument will allow you to develop as a player and allow you to make a more informed choice when you decide to upgrade to a concert level instrument. A good student guitar will set you back $1000-1500 and be good enough to last you as your playing progresses.

I played steel string guitar for 20 years before eventually being bitten by the classical bug. I purchased a Contreras C5 (cedar) after much advice seeking, playing, and perhaps most importantly listening to others play the instruments. The C5 is a really good student instrument that won't limit your playing for quite some time. I'm now fortunate enough to own a 1962 Ramirez 1A, and would agree with all the other posts that say you don't need to be a concert guitarist to have a top class instrument. Incidently I have smallish hands and the 665mm scale length doesn't pose a problem - although many would disagree. You're probably best sticking with 650mm as this is the standard.

Hope this is useful. Enjoy playing

Nick

[Fernando]

Thank You Steve, Miguel, David, and Nik for replying to my enquiry.
Nik, what exactly made you choose the Contreras C-5 as opposed to the C-4,3, or 7 ? Budget considerations?
There's a Luthier by the name of Tom Prisloe has a website "classicalguitarbuilder.com" he has a webpage on it called "Student Guitars" and a following page called "How to Choose a Student Guitar" on the first page he says "You really don't have to spend alot of money to buy a classical guitar that sounds really good. As a matter of fact spending a couple of thousand dollars for a student guitar will probably not buy a better sounding instrument than one priced under seven hundred dollars. But most dealers and classical guitar shops won't tell you that!" Could this be true?

On the page entitled "How to Choose a Student Guitar" he writes "Get a cedar top, I actually prefer the sound of spruce for fine classic guitars but few manufacturers use high quality spruce[on factory made guitars]. Most spruce trees grow with a twist and produce inferior tone wood. This poor quality spruce is what you'll find in most factory made guitars. Western red cedar trees on the other hand are very straight growing and rarely have much twist. The vast majority of cedar used in the guitar industry is of a high quality. That's why I recommend cedar over spruce[ for a factory made guitar]. Is this true?

He advises to buy a Spanish made guitar over Japaneese, that factory made guitars in Spain are of better quality. And he says that he doesn't think paying over 1,500 u.s. dollars for a factory made guitar is a good idea. What do you guys think of this advice?

[nikpearson]

Hello again Fernando,

I bought the Contreras C5 as it sounded noticably better than the C7. The C4 & C1 sounded better again but I didn't want to spend that much money only to upgrade a few years down the line. The C5 also sounder better to my ears than equivalent Alhambra & Cashmira models I tried.

I don't agree with the statement about student guitars. The $1500 instruments are much better than $500. More volume, more rounded tone, better balance. Tom Prisloe is I'm sure a great luthier but he obvioulsy hasn't tried all the student models out there.

I also think the cedar versus spruce point is misleading. There's plenty of good quality spruce around judging by the tops I saw. Let your ears be the judge as to the sound you prefer. Generalisations about tonewoods are often misleading. The C5 (cedar) sounded brighter than the Cashmira (spruce) - my Ramirez 1a (spruce) is more warm than either. Top class players disagree on this point too; suggesting there's no definitive answer. I do agree that Spanish guitars are generally better than their Japanese equivalents. None of the Far eastern made guitars I tried compared in terms of tone. Lastly, my Ramirez 1a (1962) was 'factory made', albeit by a single luthier. It sounds lovely - all factory made guitars are not the same.

To recap. I'd still suggest buying a good student guitar (spanish made - cedar or spruce) with a view to upgrading to a concert level instrument when you know exactly what you want.


All the best, Nick

[kozmo]

Fernando

I invite you to join us on the classical guitar cruise where there will be guitar makers, concerts by David Tanenbaum, Muriel Anderson, Benjamin Verdery, Adam Holzman and others.

Some of these fine guitarists are not only holding master classes but they will be holding "Beginner Workshops". Learn from the best.

Also, Kenny Hill has donated a "Rodriquez" concert guitar that's going to be given away to one of the cruisers. All Paid-in-Full bookings automatically entered to win this fine guitar (value=$3,500).

Hope to see you aboard.

K
www.classicalguitarcruise.com

[edwardcav]

Fernando,
You want a good quality student guitar, and the name Ramirez sounds good? The 4E, is the best of the E-line in Ramirez guitars, and it is a beauty. Cedar top, so it sings at you straight away. I have only just upgraded from a Yamaha CG and the difference is immense.

Try before you buy, and trust me, you wont even need to tell yourself that it was worth every penny, because the guitar will sing thos very words at you when you chop down some melodic rest strokes along the treble strings! 8)

[Pepe Vergara]

Did you ever buy your guitar? :?:

[Sharstrom]

Fernando, lots of good advice precedes this, so I'll keep it short. Yes, student guitars in the, say, $1500 range are going to be significantly nicer in about every respect than much less expensive ones. The advice re: Spanish versus Japanese may well be accurate, I don't know, but I have a Japanese student guitar I've been playing for thirty years and it is quite nice. Perhaps I was lucky when I bought it in ignorance, but you must play and hear an instrument to make up your mind. I now have a Ramirez 1a and wouldn't part with it, tho' still play the Japanese now and then. I also owned, for a couple years, a Ramirez 2E and liked it very, very much. You can find them used for under $2,000, I believe. You have some funds...look around and take your time. No offense to any store owners, but I'd be very, very careful about the big guitar retail stores for a classical guitar...if you come across one under those circumstances, check with this forum or others for info' about whether the price/maker/brand whatever is appropriate.

[Mark Lim]

Fernando, i suggest that if you are able, to drop by some guitar shops and try as many guitars as possible. Keep in mind that one of the most important feature is playability of the guitar. As a beginner myself, i find that some of the CG can be difficult to play and hinder your progress. Look for one that you are comfortable with and then see if you like the sound. Dont be focus upon the brand name. Then buy the one which suits your budget. Bear in mind that as a beginner sometimes it is not easy to tell the difference in sound quality between guitars. Once a guitar reaches a certain range, you start to pay a lot for small improvements in sound, though personally i find that worth it. Hope this helps

[Miguel Angel]

Hey guys, haven't you noticed that Fernando posted his question on July 2003 :?: Almost 3 years ago. :shock: :arrow:

[MWA]

3 yrs ago and hasn't posted since.

[Mark Lim]

:oops:

[Sharstrom]

Oops.

[Travis_Warner]

hahahahahahahahahahaah, not thats entertainment!

[Sandra]

It's Pepe bumping ancient theads again. :roll:

[Miguel Angel]

Resurected from the grave............... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: