Ramirez sound

[guitarman197750]

Hi! Some days ago, I had the opportunity to play a Ramirez 1a (1986) for a few hours. But I must admit I was completely disappointed!
I currently own a guitar by Masaru Kohno (Mod. 50; today called "special"; 1977) and my teacher plays on a guitar by Sebastian Stenzel (btw, a great luthier, I live just a few kilometers away from where he builds his wonderful instruments!)
Well, after all, I told myself: I would NEVER give away my Kohno (and my teacher the same with his Stenzel) in exchange for the Ramirez. It was loud, and also balanced, but for me the notes didn't have any substance. And it also had only extremely few posibilities of modulation ("tone colors")
Now I'm wondering why they are always sold that expensive. Do you only pay that lot for the name RAMIREZ?! In my opinion, there are much better guitars for hundreds of dollars less!!
Or is it just the very "spanish" sound you have to get used to? I could never play Bach on a Ramirez ;-)

[keith]

hey guitarman--curious as to the winking emoticon. were you saying, through this, that you actually like the sound?

i hear porsches are great cars. but, boy are they expensive. is a buyer of a porsche paying for the name? of course, but the name specifies a certain level of quality, performance and reputation--which is an earned reputation.

funny thing about guitars--it is the sound that seems to grab people and a lot of people have been grabbed by the ramirez sound (as their sales would reflect). but some folks do not care for the ramirez sound so they buy other guitars. and some guitars sound best with certain types of music--and then, of course wood being wood..................

8)

[Miguel]

Hi there,
Many of the concepts you bring up are quite common: is this guitar better than this one? who makes the best instruments? which style is better?
It is important to remember that words like "better", "worse", "good", "bad", etc. are quite subjective. It's like asking: "which car is better, a Mercedes Benz or a BMW?". I can assure you there are many who will have strong arguments to defend the cause of Mercedes Benz; but there are also many others who will find heated reasons to flock to the cause of BMW. And you may find yet a third group that will tell you they dislike both and prefer Lexus... Ultimately, it is a subjective call, based on personal taste, needs and interests.
Playing guitars is not unlike meeting people: you will meet people with whom you have many things in common, and you will probably also meet people whose mere sight you find unpleasant... and everything in between. A guitar that works wonders in one player's hands may be quite restrictive to another player. And the other way round.
As for the correlation between price and the maker's reputation, it is a fact that in many instances the reputation of the maker increases the number in the price tag. But you have to remember that in most cases that reputation was created because of the quality of the instrument. So in many instances, while you may be paying for the name, you are also paying for the quality that accompanies that name. In the case of Ramirez, the workshop earned the reputation for the quality of their instruments, the very characteristic tone, and let's not forget the historical importance. Reputation vs. quality, quality vs. reputation....what came first, the chicken or the egg? I'll let you figure that one out on your own.
There are many luthiers out there, and plenty of guitars to choose from. By the way, Kohno does make a wonderful guitar, and so does Stenzel. Have you ever tried a Friederich? I have had the fortune of playing 5 or 6 of his guitars, and each one was a joy to play and listen to. How about a Paulino Bernabe, or a Fritz Ober? I love guitars by both of these makers as well. The beauty of it all, is that each one of them builds guitars with very characteristic personalities, and very different from each other.
Glad to hear you found an instrument that talks to you.
Miguel
GSI

[Dimitri]

guitarman,
In addition to what's already been said by others, I'd like to add this:

Even though Ramirez guitars have strong name recognition, they aren't all the same.

One 1a* can differ in sound, playability, etc., from another 1a*. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that (at least historically speaking) each 1a* was built mostly by one person. Their initials used to be stamped on the foot of the guitar (inside the guitar, above the main label).

I've owned several 1a* guitars, a '66 Ramirez (blue label) blanca flamenco w/ pegs, and a '83 1a* Ramirez negra flamenco. Both were the top-of-the-line concert guitars in their respective eras.

I thought the 66 Ramirez blanca (which was the top concert model at the time) had a good sound, but certainly nowhere near the quality of other blancas I've owned.

Yet, the 83 Ramirez negra (which I still own) was supposedly built during a period in Ramirez's history where the quality of their guitars were nowhere near the quality the first made the Ramirez name famous (again supposedly).

So, go figure: the 83 Ramirez sounded much much better than the 66 Ramirez (and I don't even LIKE the negra sound that much.)

So, I agree with others who say: "buy the guitar, not the label". And if you do buy the label, for goodness sake, make sure they have a return policy if you change your mind (especially if you buy it online, sight-unseen.)

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* when I refer to 1a, I'm referring GENERALLY to the top concert model built by Ramirez during that time. It was until circa 1970 that Ramirez began explicitly writing "1a" on the labels of their top concert guitars.