My thumbs are causing me grief - TECHNIQUE WOES!

[edwardcav]

Hi everyone.

Here is my problem: I had been teaching myself guitar for three years, and I am now starting to take classical and flamenco guitar seriously, and am really trying hard to learn to read music and sort out technical issues, because it seems that in those starting years I have developed some careless habits. BTW, I am right handed.

I have ironed most of them away, but I have two main problems... My left thumb, and my right thumb! :x

My left thumb is never really straight, and it kinda bends under the neck, and my thumb is also double jointed (I am not sure if this affects it). But, after about two houirs of playng, it gets stiff an tired and sore - and this, my teacher and I believe, is because of my habit to bend the thumb in all sorts of directions under the fretboard, when it should be perfectly straight. :oops:

My right thumb is finding it hard to execute fluent rest strokes, especially in tremolo situations. It goes out of time sometimes, and I don't think I am doing it right. :(

If anyone could help me with any exercises, advice or resources to get me out of these habits, I'd be grateful.

[keith]

as to your left thumb: if you are bending all which ways, especially downwards, are you doing so to compensate for fingers that are having difficulty reaching the bass strings? or, are you squeezing the neck to death? from my early experiences, and from what i have heard it seems one word describes left thumb woes: TENSION. in teaching yourself you may have developed a habit of too much tension in your left hand. have your teacher analyze the amount of tension in your left hand--your thumb may be bending all which ways to compensate for tension in your hand--or it may be the cause. either way, this is a curse for many.

as to your right thumb. i primarily play flamenco but have a classical repetiore. the tremelo's are different--the flamenco tremelo having that extra "i" stroke. switching back and forth can be very difficult. but the biggest problem with developing a good tremelo, as with any technique, is speed--as in trying to speed up without have a rock solid technique.

i studied with a russian guy who taught his son who is now studying with elliot fisk (and is a stellar flamenco player). he told me he had his son purposely go slow for a year or so with his tremelo. his technique is so rock solid that he can play both styles. play it slow, concentrate on your thumb/fingers, and then use a metronome (after you are very comfortable with your fingers and thumbs and their respective placements). 8)

i have yet to see this emoticon used :twisted: so i put it here as a reminder to us that it should be named: tension

[edwardcav]

hahahaha thanks heaps kieth. That was actually the approach I was taking, well, maybe not that extreme. But it sounds good - but still on that tremolo... In Pumping Nylon, Scott Tennant reckons that they should be very staccato; and each new finger should be planted to the string as soon as the note sounds.

I am unsure about this approach... Is staccato the way to go?

[keith]

p*i*a*m*i as compared to: p**ia*mi or other variations--the key is a smooth and even rhythm. obviously for a classical tremelo you would eliminate the first "i".

what may help is the following: "P" on "A" string move to "D" string; "I" on "B" string strikes string do not include the other fingers: do this so that movement becomes even. then do the above with a "M" stroke--so this last movement is only 3 notes. do this with the focus of evenness. then use a metronome. go slow.

what you want to avoid is sounding like a horse alternating between a trot and a gallop--unless you were commissioned to do the sound track for the movie seabiscuit.

what this makes this even more frustrating--listen to sabicas and his tremelo and you know what the ideal should be. the old saying of "i would give my right arm to do/have that" really fails since you need that arm. oh well. good luck.

[edwardcav]

Woooo. I am gonna have to read that thread a few times slowly. :)

Thanks for your helo kieth. As for my left thumb... :cry:

[Rachinini]

I also have a double jointed thumb in my left hand and it used to ALWAYS lock up on me in the middle of the song. I'd be in the middle of a phrase and then have to jerk my hand some wierd direction to fix it. But i got over it just practicing and practicing, so maybe you can get over your problem the same way. After you get to a certain point your hands are so strong that it takes almost no effort to hold them down, then your thumbs may stop hurting. (it doesn't hurt to put a set of 12's on a strat scale electric guitar though)

[Rachinini]

by that last line i meant that it's good practice to put big strings on an electric guitar to get your hands stronger, i saw it looked a bit confusing.

[edwardcav]

I have a doublejointed thumb too, and it bends and skwirms and everything :cry:

[portlandgreg2]

edwardcav,

The thing that struck me most about your email is that your pain begins after about two hours... How long do you play? How many breaks do you take?

In my experience, and I suppose this is only one opinion, I've found that a good, concentrated practice (including technique, new reading/review of a few pieces, and the playing of at least a couple of pieces I already have down) can be done in about an hour and a half to two hours max.

If it was simply due to your anatomy or to tension, I'd expect it to begin much earlier. To me it sounds more like tension resulting from fatigue.

[edwardcav]

I take short breaks every 30 mins. I am mostly worried about how it bends under the neck.

But I'll tell the truth - the main reason for the post was to examine my right thumb, which is finding it difficult to rest stroke in the correct position.

Thanks!

[jameslowe]

I am double jointed, but i've never really had a problem with my left thumb, but as far as the right thumb! But dont fret (no pun intended) because segovia himself was double jointed also. If i were you id watch some old videos of him and watch his thumb and find out what he does. There are also some excrecised that you can do to strengthen your thumb so that it stays straighter naturally when you play.

[edwardcav]

Thanks, do you recommend any?

They are going alright now, especially the left. NEW GUITARISTS TAKE NOTE - get into the frame of mind that you want to make your left hand fingers hit the fretboard from the top as much as possible. As long as you are keeping your wrist, and your thumb around the middle of the fretboard and under the 2nd fret in the position, it feels, looks and works great.

As far as the right, I am very unstable in my right hand technique. It is sound, to and extent, but somewhat erratic, the price I pay for ignoring the grading system we have here, which is excellent.

Its getting there.

[NGiorgio]

It has been my experience in both playing and teaching that left thumb problems are brought about by two things. Usually it is poor position and or tension. This is where a teacher is helpful.

As for right thumb problems, I believe arpeggio and tremolo exercises can be very helpful. To execute arpeggio and tremolo well the right hand needs to be in the proper position which can help set up the thumb.

Something to try..... apoyando stroke with the thumb but very slowly and in time, with both arpeggio and tremolo exercises, of course only on the bass notes. It is very difficult to play efficient arpeggio or tremolo with the right hand in an improper position.

Another thing that might help the right thumb is resting it on the 6th string and practice 3 or 4 stroke rasqueado's. That will set the thumb correctly.

[Olly]

NGiorgio just said, 'Another thing that might help the right thumb is resting it on the 6th string and practice 3 or 4 stroke rasqueado's'...

When you stroke rasqueado's, should you keep your thumb on the 6th string, or is this just another way of doin them, because my guitar teacher rests his thumb on the 6th string, and he hasn't told me to do so, so i haven't been. However, a ras with the 6th string sounded sounds really dodgy. So should i mute the 6th string with my thumb or wot?

[NGiorgio]

You should address that question to your teacher. Are you learning Classical or Flamenco? I rest the thumb on 6th string for most rasqueados. There are exceptions such as triplet rasqueados and some others where up and/or down stokes of the thumb are used.

[keith]

in doing rasqueos the objective is what sound do you want? for most, the fingers should hit somewhere between strings 5 and 1 so you would want the thumb on the 6th string for support (try doing it without the support and you hand will quickly tire). however: when doing tremolandos (rasqueos that include the 6th string), you will need to lift up your thumb and as ngiorgio mentioned, triplets need the thumb off.

6th string dodgy? the 6th string can a lot to a sound if you have good technique. the top 3 strings form many chords and a rasqueo that includes the 6 string can add a lot to the sound you want to capture--a darker more haunting sound.

if your teacher rests his/her thumb and you do not, and you are complaining of pain/ difficulty to us, do you tell your teacher this? if so, why does he/she continue to have you unsupported? if you do not tell him, why?

[NGiorgio]

To elaborate on my previous comment on rasqueados, I was reminded by the last post that bass string rasqueados are quite common and can sound terrific. I use some in my playing where I rest the thumb on the tap plate just above the 6th string. It serves as a support for the right hand and makes for more a powerful rasqueado. I learned this from a Juan Martin video. As I recall, he did not explain it, but the technique was clearly visable as he demonstrated the particular piece. The last time I played it, couldn't help notice that again, in order to excecute properly, the right hand still must be in the correct position even when used as an anchor or support.

Keith, what is a tremolando?

[keith]

tremolando as i learned the word means to do a four stroke rasqueo on the 6th string (the 5th/4th can be included). the movement is continous until one needs to move on.