Ramirez R4

[Luke]

Good day.

The action on my R4 seems a little high; Is it a common occurence for Ramirez guitars to have a high action, or should mine be adjusted ?

Anyone out there with a similar situation?

[keith]

often times action on a new guitar is a little high to prevent, at all costs, buzzing. additionally medium tension strings are used to assist in speed which can facilitate buzzing--especially with a strong attack. remember, someone selling a guitar does not want someone unfamiliar with guitars to hear a buzz. more experienced folks would know what to do: get some sandpaper, tape it to a table or countertop, pull out the saddle, sand the bottom of the saddle, and repeat until the desired action is achieved. the general rule for a classical is:

12th fret, low e string--4-4.5mm
12 fret high e string 3-3.5 mm
these measurements are from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string.

you should not have to do anything to the nut. there are many ways of measuring the action at the first fret--jose oribe suggests using a feeler gauge at the first fret with a finger pushing down the third fret.

another trick i use that will get you in the ballpark area-- 3 starbuck sticks pushed together from the fretboard to the bottom of the string for low e at the 12 fret--2 for the high e. and one starbuck stick at the second fret from the fret board to the bottom of the string--it should go under the bass strings but gets stopped by the trebles.. a dime also works. remember, this gets you in the ballpark, a ruler and magnifying glass finishes the job at the 12th fret and the feeler gauge is a good way of making sure the action at the first fret is correct--i cannot remember the actual numbers (i am at work and my book is at home).

while one the subject of starbuck sticks--besides being useful for measuring, they work great (after being sanded) as a shim for the bridge and/or nut. and here is where they are great--for cleaning the underside of the nails. the smooth round end really cleans out the gunk and does not harm the nail. and of course, getting a starbuck stick means getting a cup of their wonderful coffee (and no i do not work for them). :D for them there sticks.

[Luke]

Thanks Keith.

I'm curious now to find out if the action of my guitar is really too high or not.

Regards.

[Gabriel Gardea]

Good suggestions Keith, the only problem is that we do not have Starbucks in México!! .......... Just joking.
In order to get this height difference from low e string to the high e string, the saddle must be sanded tilted and I guess this is not so easy to do by hand and it could lead to an uneven bottom surface. How do you do it? What should be the correct height of the nut? I have sometimes played with the height of the nut but I am not really sure what am I looking for. I like very low action in my guitar, but it is difficult to get rid of the buzzing. Do you have more suggestions?
Thanks,
Gabriel

[keith]

if you look at the saddle you will see it has a differential height from the first and sixth strings. if you are using the saddle that came with the guitar you probably just need to sand the entire length (bottom) to get the desired height--the differential height has been made.

if you are using a new blank you get your height difference from shaping the top--you slope it and then put on your string angle. the bottom stays flat and the top receives the differential "cut". once you have the approximate slope from the 6th string to the 1st string you sand the bottom to get the exact height. remember, it is the slope that is shaped on the top.
you can also sand differentially at the bottom-if you need to make minute adjustments (i.e., taking a tad off the 3rd to 1st strings).

as to the nut: i am at work and my oribe book is at home, but what he does is to press the third fret and uses a feeler guage to measure the height between the fret and string at the first fret. i think it is .009 inches for the low e and .004 for the high e. but do not hold me to these number since my book is at home. i have heard of folks cutting a pencil in half and drawing lines to get the starting point. personally, i like the starbuck method--hey you get a cup of good coffee.

for a nut from the factory, you should not need to sand it down. taking down height at the saddle will reduce the height at the nut (i am not sure if it is truly linear but the taking X off at the saddle will result is X/2 at the 12th fret and X/4 at the nut). do the nut last.

if you are starting with a blank, use the nut of choice for string spacing (or you can divide it out, etc. etc.) and then sand sand sand takes about an hour, but sure beats paying someone a chunk of money.

[Gabriel Gardea]

Thanks Keith! :D
Again, very good suggestions!
Some months ago I "played" with the height of the saddle, not knowing that it has already the differential height. So I tried to compensate by sanding the bottom in a tilted way. I tried this by applying more pressure in one side than the other. I could manage to get the desired height but also I started noticing an anoying vibration (not a fret buzzing) in my fingers as pressing the frets ( specially from frets Nr. 1 to 5 ). It seems that part of the vibration from the strings are passing through the fret and into my fingers. I feel this vibration comes from both the saddle side and also from the nut side at the same time. There is no noticeable difference in sound. Do you have any idea what could be wrong? I've never noticed this vibration prior to sanding the saddle.
Gabriel

[keith]

not really seeing or feeling what you describe it would be difficult to say. also, i am NOT a luthier so there may be other things going on which i have no knowledge or experience. however, good scientific analysis would suggest that if the problem did not occur before the sanding, and it did afterwards, 2 things may have happened. #1: there is poor contact with the saddle and the slot where it rests. or #2 the condition was occurring prior to the sanding and the lower action is allowing you to feel it. kind of wonder what the neck is like--and the frets? if the frets are buzzing to touch, that is where i would first look. good luck.

[NGiorgio]

Gabriel.

Along with the excellent advice already given to you by Keith, I will also try to help with your problem. Don't know for sure, but what you describe may be a back buzz. This is sort of a sympathetic vibration situation where the fretted note vibrates the string behind (lower than) the note being fretted. Sometimes might be caused by the saddle being too low and/or the nut being too low. If it is the nut, just slipping a piece of paper or a business card under the nut may help. It may just be needed only on one side, bass or treble. If it is the saddle you may need to make up a new one. Or take the instrument to a guitar technician.

You may want to check out the Hill Guitar Company website. Go to "News", then click on FAQ, then "Guitar set-up. Spec's are given for both nut and saddle measurements. It has been my experience that most classical guitars are set up a little higher at the saddle, as it is easier to lower than to raise the action at the bridge. If you going to attempt to correct this problem yourself, a new saddle blank, of bone will be needed. These can be purchased for a few dollars at most guitar shops that do repairs. Jose Ramirez III used to install a thin wood shim under the saddle so that the action could be lowered slightly by removing the shim, if necessary.

When I get a new guitar, I usually make up another saddle, which is lower. I never adjust the original. This way you have always the original to go back to or use as a template for making another (with the proper angle and contour). Sometimes changes in temperature and/or humidity can create movement of the neck in such away that the action gets higher or lower. Having an extra saddle lets you change the action very easily.

If you have taken too much material off both the nut and the saddle, it may be best to take the guitar to a luthier or guitar technician for inspection and corrections and/or repairs.

Good luck.

[keith]

and to further add to ngiorgio's excellent advice, here are some figures from the joses (ramirez and oribe)

classical at 12th fret low e 4-4.5mm high e 3mm
flamenco at 12th fret low e 3-3.5mm high e 2-2.3 mm

now to the nut: adjustment to the action should always be done at the saddle. but nuts do wear, etc. jose oribe uses a feeler guage (purchased at auto supply store). he pushes down at the third fret and uses the feeler guage at the first fret (between the top of the fret and the bottom of the string). these are his actual figures (in INCHES)

1st string .002-.005
2nd string .003-.006
3rd string .008-.012
4th string .003-.006
5th string .005-.009
6th string .008-.012

when you use a feeler guage, it should slide with a little resistance--no resistance means the space is greater than the feeler guage used, a lot of resistance, the space is less. i would start by using the higher end figures and move south, so to speak, as needed--e.g., for the first string, .005. hope this helps.

[Gabriel Gardea]

Thanks Keith and NGiorgio :D
I guess back buzz is a more appropiate description of this problem. Actually I checked my guitar as Keith adviced by pressing on the third fret and checking the height on the first fret and what I found is that there is contact between the string and the fret. I will look in the web site suggested to see if I can find the exact distance.
Thanks Again!
Gabriel

[Gabriel Gardea]

Thanks Keith :D
I read your answer after I posted mine. So I already have the correct figures. I will get a feeler gage and check my guitar. I will let you know what happens.
Gabriel

[keith]

looks like ngiorgio hit the nail (fret) on the head about the nut being too low and causing sympathetic vibrations (the not so good vibrations). now comes the fun part--if you need a shim, go to starbucks, have a coffee, keep the stick, sand sand sand. 8) :D

good luck. where in mexico do you live? are you a native of mexico or a transplant?

[Gabriel Gardea]

I got very good advice from both of you guys. :D
I am sure this will solve my problem, the only issue is that I might have to raise the nut and that could make it more difficult to do. We do not have good luthiers around here, maybe I will have to send it to Paracho for repair.
I am as Mexican as Tacos ( not Taco Bell please!!)
I live in Torreón which is a city in the northern state of Coahuila. Around four hours from the border with Texas. I travel frequently to the U.S. so next time I will get a cup of cofee from Starbucks and will keep the stick.
By the way: What do you now about Mexican Luthiers? We have very good ones in Paracho. I've seen that GSI carry guitars from Abel Garcia which is a very good!! Mexican luthier from Paracho, in the state of Michoacan. This is a small town almost entirely dedicated to guitar construction, so it is interesting for a guitarist to wander around the town and try guitars in every small shop. So next time, instead of going to the beach plan a trip to Paracho!
Thanks,
Gabriel

[keith]

raising the nut is super easy--you can put a shim of paper. wood is preferred at the saddle since it transfers energy to the top. i have heard paracho is to mexico as valencia is to spain--the capital of factory built guitars. kenny hill has many guitars built there and his guitars get rave reviews.

there are no starbucks in your town. boy that is a super bummer :evil:

i am a transplant from chicago which has a very large mexican population. mexican food can be found everywhere--the real thing. i love chorizo in just about anything (except captain crunch cereal). i moved to boston and went to a "mexican" restaurant and ordered chorizo. they knew nothing of chorizo and served me some weird variant of sausage. guess that is why this town is known for chowder and lobster.

[Gabriel Gardea]

Hope the guys from GSI don´t mind we change this forum from Guitars to Mexican food :oops:
Well you really know about Mexican food!! Chorizo is too spicy even for my Mexican stomach!! Yes I guess Paracho is to Mexico what Valencia is for Spain. But if you really want to try the real thing (I don't think even in Chicago you can) plan a trip to Paracho, play a lot of guitars, eat chorizo, tacos(real ones), tortas, sopes, tostadas, lots of jalapeños(bring your pepto! don´t forget Moctezuma's revenge), drink Tequila and enjoy the nice weather.
Gabriel

[keith]

they do not seem to mind--you would be surprized what has transpired. just don't try to sell any used guitars (i got caught doing that) or using a link to a guitar dealer (others have done that).

you would be surprise how mexican chicago is except that it gets super cold in the winter. but you do raise a great point--vacationing in mexico is worth it--especially guitar oriented mexico. 8)

good luck with the adjustment.

[tmkid]

Are you kidding? We love Mexican food here at GSI!

Tim

[keith]

hey tmkid (AKA: DA BOSS at GSI). it would be a really cool thing 8) if g.s.i. had a day set aside (say feb. for us freezing our butts off in the northeast, or other parts of the country/world) for forum members to show up, check out the merchandise and buy before we bye (as in saying goodbye). and since you folks love mexican food, we could do some quasi pot luck thing (as much as possible). it would be a forum members party

the advantages: for g.s.i.: a bunch of really nice folks checking out the place, picking up that guitar, playing it, realizing we have to have that guitar, buying it...... oh what a shameless plug here for you guys.

for us: hey we get to see the faces :shock: :o behind the words, probably get some great stories from the likes of jonny hotnuts, and many of us, warmth 8) . just a thought.

[Gabriel Gardea]

Good Idea!! :D But the food should be on GSI (they love Mexican food)! And what about great discounts ( 50 - 80% or so) that day for forum members only? I can bring chorizo, jalapeños (real ones), and Tequila (real one, not Cuervo!).
Going back to our main subject. What about a discussion about music for guitar? I can talk about some of our Mexican classical guitar composers ( we have several good ones).
Gabriel

[keith]

cool. i would start a new thread--otherwise people will just think it is more chat about the r4.

speaking of music and mexico--although not quite pure mexican in that he was from spain, the great flamenco, sabicas, lived in mexico for many years.

[tmkid]

As for the visit to GSI for Forum members and participants, I really like the idea. We are planning a move in June to new location which could make this a really fun event. Any further ideas on this would be welcome. I'm not sure we can offer the discounts suggested but Gabriel (50-80% off), but we'll do our best.

Tim

[NGiorgio]

Tim,

Are you staying in California? My wife is threatening to plan a vacation trip to the west coast and I've stated that I will not consider it, unless we can visit G.S.I. To get to meet you and your staff along with forum members etc. would be great. Sounds like a terrific idea. Now, if I can just come up with a real good reason why I need another guitar ..............

[tmkid]

Yes, we're staying in the West Los Angeles area. Probably not more than a couple of miles from our current location. Love to see you here!

Tim