Lessons learned from Lagrima - fingering is everything

[M. Stephenson]

I have been taking instruction since March, but have been playing for longer. As a result, I have a small repertoire that my instructor has never heard me play.

I am having some issues playing very slow and clean where every nuance is noticeable, so I played Lagrima for him to illustrate the problem. I had also brought along the sheet music, which had tab (I learned the song from the tab) and is part of an "Easy Guitar" anthology

Well, we completely re-fingered almost the entire song as well as corrected the inaccuracies/embellishments in the transcription. He also pulled out some old sheet music of Tarrega's works that had the "proper" notation for Lagrima.

I asked him how the music I had could be so poorly tabbed - it made me mad that my version was so badly transcribed. He responded that a lot of the music available today was not fingered by an accomplished guitarist, indeed some of the transcribers may not be very good guitarist at all.

He went on to say that the difference between a $15.00 Segovia transcription and a $3.50 generic transcription is in the fingering and that one should always look for the version arranged by a renowned guitarist, regardless of price.

I have to say that I am beginning to see his point. Even though I have to re-learn Lagrima, I can tell that I will be able to play it much better than before, mostly because of the changes to the left hand fingering.

I used to be a big fan of tab, but I am beginning to realize that unless the tab is taken from a renowned guitarists work, then tab is a trap that can do more harm than good.

Also, I realize that fingering is everything and that spending hours working out the choreography to a phrase is time well spent. Good fingering is an almost effortless dance and you can tell when it is right.

Amazing but true.

[steve v]

Just make sure that you write the changes legibly and completely on that score, as well as any others that you and your teacher decide should be re-fingered. I've discovered that my twelve-year absence from playing has meant, in many instances, that markings on pieces of music that once made sense to me, because I was playing them and understood whatever crazy "shorthand" I was writing on the score, no longer make as much sense when it's been a lengthy period of time since I had those pieces under my fingers.

[M. Stephenson]

Yes, same here about not being able to decipher the criptic notes from ages past.

I think that I am going to re-tab Lagrima in TablEdit over the next few weeks. The world desrves a well tabed Lagrima ;-)

You know, this new left hand fingering may be easier for experienced players, but I think that it will be just as tricky if not harder for the beginner. The right hand fingering is also a little more difficult than the "easy" transcription. Perhaps the "easy" one is initially easier, but this newer one is much smoother and more flowing.

I will post it to my website when it is done and I will let everyone know - it would be good to get some feedback. Analyzing left hand fingering has recently become a topic of special interest to me.

[Jonny Hotnuts]

I never pay attention to suggested fingering and use my own. I am not saying it is the right way but I have found that there are many things I would call mistakes in tab or sheet in regards to fingering.

I think that personal preference can direct someone to say this is the correct fingering when there are 10+ ways to skin the cat.

I try to use open strings where ever I can and try and minimize position changes, but some would say I should play an entire scale on one string. If beating them selves up is what they want to do that is fine. But if I can get away with it I will try and play it in “the box”. But someone else may find it easier to keep sliding those fingers upwards.

I guess what ever floats yer boat.


-JH

[Jonny Hotnuts]

Oh, and btw:


If you have ever seen the tab for Lagrima at weeds classical tab site there is a incorrect chord (wrong notes)

It is the very last chord in the first version.
Should be a "g" and not a "b"

The last cord in the second is correct.

Just incase this is where you (or anyone else) is playing off of.

-JH

[Mikey]

Hey Jonny,

I think you may underestimate the importance of fingering in a piece. While I often ignore the fingering offered by publshers-even when transcribed by accomplished guitarists- I only finger a series in a manner that is conductive to the best sound. Saying that one should re-finger to minimize position shifts and make the piece technically easier does not take in to account the sacrifices in doing so! When fingering a series you MUST take into account the different tonal characteristics of each string and do so with overall muscianship in mind. Open string or cross string patterns often seriously change the meaning or sound of a particular phrase. If technical obstacles are too great to overcome and detriment the sound only then should you revert. You have to take into account the passage and it meaning relation to the whole piece. If you look at all the Masters they are fanatic about fingering and often opt for much more difficult fingerings for a different sound. Its the details that make a player great.

Mikey

[NGiorgio]

Mikey,

Very well said. Sometimes a change in fingering can seriously compromise the beauty of the phrase, as well as what the composer/transcriber may have intended.

Such compromises may be much more acceptable when playing for ones own enjoyment, but should be considered very carefully when working on a piece for public performance.

[RDS]

If the fingerings are from a reliable source, they should not be tampered with (maybe a small change here and there.) They certainly should not be ignored. Now an ureliable source is different. I've seen some pretty bad fingerings in some "compilation" type books and would not hesitate to change them. Rick

[Jonny Hotnuts]

Well said Mikey.

And I must say you have a very valid point.
But understand that I have a different view on playing the classical guitar, and while this is not intended to sound self placating I don’t consider it to be a priority to follow in the footsteps of the past just because they were touted as masters. But as a rule the fact that they are masters usually dictates that their transcriptions are done as well as they can be, meaning they can not be perfected on. But many times the people who transcribe songs to sheet or tab do not hold true to the works they decipher. I have the recorded albums to 95% of the songs I play and use them as guidance. But this is where I find the “mistakes” I spoke of, because the tab or sheet was fingered incorrectly according to the masterworks. Just because it was written does not always mean that is the way Segovia played it.

But I will and have, attempt to find a way to improve a song no matter if it were done by a master or not. To me, the song is the most important factor and feel also as you, the details of different fingering can make a huge difference in the total outcome. I feel if I can make a song sound better by changing the fingering I will no matter if that is the way Alirio decided to play it I will. At times I wonder if the masters would have agreed with me, thought it was wrong, amusing or the ranting of a madman.

So at what point did it become wrong to have your own personality?
So why do we play classical guitar if everything that you play is nothing more that a carbon copy of someone else work?

My first post in this thread was misleading.
This is what I intended to say.

[snetzley]

I suspect that even when you study a piece of music transcribed by an accomplished guitarist, you still find instances where you might need to rework the fingering based on your own preferences or, in my case, imperfections. :)

The last joint (closest to the tip) of my left hand ring finger was injured a number of years ago. The joint was shattered and had to be pinned. As a result, that joint doesn't bend. At all. Nada. Because of it, I sometimes come up with alternate fingerings. But for the most part, I stick with the fingerings as they are noted on the music. That doesn't mean that I don't bring my own artistry to the music. :lol:

[steve v]

Jonny,

Here's the dichotomy that's causing a problem with your messages: you say in your second post that you attempt to find ways to improve a song, whether the transcription was done by a master or not, and yet in the first post you state that your primary fingering goal is to use open strings as much as possible and to stay within the box. And that statement from the first post is diametrically opposed to the concept of making a song better: open strings can cause unintended overtones, for example, when they aren't damped in the progression to the next note or chord, while staying within the box can easily limit or alter the timbre or tonal variations that otherwise impact a piece. The sound of the "C" at the 10th fret of the 4th string is markedly different than the same note fretted on the second string, but if your box demands that you be on the second string, then you've limited your ability to interject tonal variations in your interpretation of the piece.

Fingerings are not sacrosanct. And individual personality should always come through in performance of a piece. But adhering to the principle you professed, of using open strings as much as possible and staying within the box, is at least as bad, if not more so, than somebody who strictly adheres to the marked fingerings without even thinking about the possibilities of changing them, because your adherence to that principle locks you into a mehtod of interpreting a piece just like that slavish adherence to marked fingering locks somebody else into a method of interpeting a piece. But keep in mind, too, that it's a method, not a result. Two people following the exact same fingering for a piece can still come to extremely different interprations, due to tempo, dynamics, stresses, rubato and countless other differences.

[Jonny Hotnuts]

I agree.
Very misleading.
In my first post by saying I try in all instances to change to open or box is simply incorrect, incorrect in practice and what I intended to convey.
In essence all I was trying to say is there are ways to alter a transcription, and was simply giving examples of things that can be done. And while I have no qualms in changing a song I would only do it if I felt it was for the better of the song and not the ease of playing. I, as many are aware of the different tonalities in the same note played in different positions. But with this knowledge still say that while a change in position will yield different tonalities the fact that because of this change may allow you to attack the next phrase quicker or a smoother legato and therefore become a benefit to the song musically or to more closely adhere to the orchestral composition

Really all I want someone to know is that you should not adhere to a strict code of fingering simply because it is written. And maybe, to study the original score and add even more polyphony to be truer to the song as it was written and intended by the composer.

Nothing more.