short scale guitars

[mkguitars]

i have been thinking about trying a shorter scale guitar maybe a 640 or 630. i was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this. are there any builders that are know for building good short scale guitars?

thanks
mike

[NGiorgio]

Check out Kenny Hill guitars at www.hillguitars.com. They make a number of models in the shorter scale lengths that you mentioned. Also, there are some detailed explanations about the myths of short scale guitars.

I know that there are others, but Hill is the only one (that I am aware of) who goes into the details on his website.

Most luthiers will make shorter scale guitars, some only by special order.

[mkguitars]

hi
thanks i have seen the hill article. there are some interesting ideas on the websites of greg byers and robert mikhail(sp??).

i was wondering if anyone out there had some good/bad experience with specific builders or results when swithing to a shorter guitar

thanks
mike

[David]

mike,

I am in a similar situation where I want a guitar that is easier to play but with little or no negative effect on tone and loudness. I have tried one Hill Hauser model with 640 mm scale which sounded good and seemed easier to play (the body size may also be a little smaller).

You can use a 650 mm guitar and simulate a shorter scale at the same pitch. If you tune down 1/2 step and then put a capo at the first fret, the pitch returns to normal and the guitar has a scale length of (I think) 613.5 mm.

david

[TheEvan]

I just got my short scale Friday. Thinking 640 may not be quite enough difference, I went for 630. I chickened out on 613.5 (and my luthier wasn't too keen on it, not having built that scale before). Anyway, it's a winner, makes a real difference in ease, sounds great, and I will be selling my 650, lovely though it is.

[marquezdl]

My question here is a bit different. My teacher allowed me to spend some time playing his Hill Panormo while he watched. His observation was that my technique improved quite noticeably as soon as I started playing the Panormo..and it really wasn't anything to do with the scale length, it had more to do with the ergonomics of the very small peanut shaped body of the Panormo and the angles of my wrist and forearm. I'm 6ft 1in, and have larger than average hands.
I also immediately noticed that I was generating a much richer tone and my free stroke mechanics were improved...anyone else have that experience?
So what I am looking for is a guitar with a small body...I wish more luthiers made something along the lines of the Hill Panormo

[Pepe Vergara]

When do you need it by?

[hiro]

something.

On that mangore / bellucci site he says if your outstretched hand is 9 in or smaller 640mm is recommended, over 9 inches get 650.

But that site is non grata to many people / forums, and I never heared of that 9 inch hand rule. So is that information regarding hands is correct?

I'll play some 640's regardless, but won't be for a few weeks (the place that I know has 640mms is an hour away).

[amath]

Short scale guitars are not easy to find for me especially i am in Australia. Choices are limited. I have recently ordered a custom parlor from Sam Radding from the US. Sam is known for taking Bob Taylor (Co-founder of Taylor guitars) under his wings before Bob bought out his business and started off the now known Taylor guitars. This guitar was built with his version of a Kasha Braced Top and neck profile customised at 50mm with 630 scale length to suit my likings. Neck joint is at the 14th fret to compromise the loss of tension due to the shorter scale. Another unique thing is that this parlor has a body depth of 4.5 inches so lots of air volume for greater sound projection for its smaller overall body size. I am really enjoying the playability as well as tonal qualities are surprising for its size. A hand-made guitar from a very experienced luthier with this much of customisation allowed and impeccable workmanship at only USD950. I have not seen any single bad review so far but i must say he is not your typical mainstream classical guitar builder.

[marquezdl]

I would definitely like to find out more about this guitar, or other similar guitars...scale length 625-635, standard classical guitar neck dimensions, small body, simple but well constructed. solid and durable, but playable and decent tone.
I hope to purchase a very fine quality small guitar in the future, something like the Hill FE-18, but for now I am seeking a decent quality small instrument to use as a travel guitar. It would spend lots of time in my car, hotel rooms, etc.
It needs to be small, but ergonomically correct. durable, playable, and price is definitely an issue.
I've looked at the Blackbird composite nylon string, and I just can't get past the carbon fiber...I'm just too attached to the look, feel, and even smell of fine wood

[Ruphus]

something.

On that mangore / bellucci site he says if your outstretched hand is 9 in or smaller 640mm is recommended, over 9 inches get 650.

But that site is non grata to many people / forums, and I never heared of that 9 inch hand rule. So is that information regarding hands is correct?

I'll play some 640's regardless, but won't be for a few weeks (the place that I know has 640mms is an hour away).

Renato Bellucci has ruined his reputation through selling duds, and with his business policies, but not all that he says would be inevitably bogus in the same time.

The proportion you quote sound of sense to me as the standard scale indeed seems to be suiting rather big hands. I suppose that the majority of us actually copes with too big scales / the standard being inappropriate for average sized people.
-

And what his guitars are concerned, some like me have been lucky with the specimen they received.
Since I moved to an area with very low humidity, I have started using the Belluci most of the time while avoiding to expose my concert level guitar to the climate for too long.

And the Belluci not too bad from start has become better and better over the past two years that it has been extensively played by now.
Just last night a friend asked me to demonstrate him the difference between a good guitar and a less refined one.
So I took out my Burguet AB and the Belluci to show him, altering between them.

He then thought the Bellucci to be the concert grade.
Naturally, for not hearing the subtleties with his untrained ears, however it still tells a bit about the properties the Bellucci has prospered into.
I must say that I was surprised myself. Last time I had them both out of their cases, when showing all of my guitars to another guitarist about 1,5 years ago, the Belluci just from volume alone would pale in comparison to the other guitars. That has obviously dramatically changed by now.

Just to mention the oddity.

Ruphus

[tanolonco]

i am not sure where bellucci came up with the 9 inch rule but i would guess most individuals in the population at large cannot make 8 inches let alone 9 inches. hand size tends to follow height and sex and a male height of 6 feet would yield a span of 9 inches (i am 6'2" and my span is just over 9 inches and my hands are probably typical for someone my height). technique is everything--the best hand spreads i have seen have been from short individuals--my teacher who taught me had a hand spread far less than mine but could outreach me on the fretboard.. that is not to say a scale length of less than 650 is not valid and i am sure it makes sense. using bellucci's rule most of the population would not make the 9 inch rule and therefore one has to wonder how the 650 became the norm in a time when the average height was less than it is today.

[Ruphus]

most of the population would not make the 9 inch rule and therefore one has to wonder how the 650 became the norm in a time when the average height was less than it is today.

Let aside whether the standard would really be suiting 9 inch hands or a bit less, the whereabouts of the norm size indeed seem weird.

And there are more examples of none-ergonomical designs out there whichs design evolution did not take place.

For instance shoes. The average shoe base form is about the most unergonomical case you can find. That slimmy thing that is being standard has nothing to do with about 95 or more percent of human feet.
And the outcome is pretty obvious as well. Crumbled toes, nodes and deranged knees and backs. Most visible with the elderly.
Yet, a silly common taste shaped over centuries and the industry still are going for much too narrow shoes.

Let alone recent shapes where heel and tip being rounded for the user to roll around instead of unrolling during walk.

Stupid gimmicks in the info and high-tech age and things still remain despite the unpractical way.

Next, look at much too low sofas or kitchen counters etc.
Or at the user himself when he for instance sits behind the wheel with the chair so far back that his arms must be entirely stretched out to reach the wheel. Thinking such position to be looking cool while losing control over the car every other time.
Could he be knowing better? I guess so.

With standard guitar shape things seem yet much better up than with other examples. Despite the instruments slightly too large scale and unergonomical practice like playing either seated or with unpractical straps when standing.

Ruphus

[oc chuck]

I think the 9" rule is a great answer for people
who don't know better.
I have to agree with Rufus and Tanoloco.
It seems to be the norm for the manufacturer/marketer
to tell the individual what he or she needs.

Though this is way to keep cost down for the majority,
marketers want to cram everyone into the same mold.

Some players would do better with a 50 or 54 mm. nut width.
I guess it comes down to thoughtful experience to see
what is best for you.

[garnieri]

something.

On that mangore / bellucci site he says if your outstretched hand is 9 in or smaller 640mm is recommended, over 9 inches get 650.

But that site is non grata to many people / forums, and I never heared of that 9 inch hand rule. So is that information regarding hands is correct?

I'll play some 640's regardless, but won't be for a few weeks (the place that I know has 640mms is an hour away).

I think that Renato may be right- but it depends of the anatomy of your left arm, wrist and hand.

For instance, my hand is < to 9 inch, and in 30 years of practising guitar, I have never felt comfortable and secure with the work of my left hand and fingers, with 650 guitars, and I have always been tired with guitar playing and uncomfortable.

sometimes I play the guitar of my wife: a brasilian Di Giorgio 18 (low range but nice guitar with a 640 scale), and I feel better and I play better.

[ColdSteel]

The scale length alone may not be the only factor. My hand measures 9 1/2" and 664 mm feels best to me and a standard width seems comfortable. Steel string guitars more often start around 660 mm and go up from there but their thin width makes them often uncomfortably cramped in comparison.

You may want to check with a builder about the width and try out various guitars based on that.

[marquezdl]

Where's the action on this thread? I am lusting for a Hill Torres FE-18 replica in spruce/maple....anybody else doing something like that? about 635mm scale?
Seems everyone has lost interest in this topic but me!!!

[xenti]

Some years ago I ordered a guitar from Sergio Abreu by writing him a letter. He responded but he sent the letter to his agent in the states who relayed it by transcribing it onto an e-mail to me! I wanted a 650 scale and when I got the guitar I assumed that's what it was. But after awhile noticed something odd: the frets in the upper register seemed closerer together than normal. Measuring I found it was a 640 scale which was Abreu's standard. On balance I prefer the 650 but I might try the 640 again if I get the opportunity to buy another guitar.

[bgoodwin91006]

For what it's worth, I have an 8-1/4" span and a 650 guitar is difficult for me to play. It's partly due to my age and a lack of flexibility.

I have a 630mm Cordoba which produces a beautiful deep Spanish sound but the difference in size isn't enough. It's easier than a 650mm but not easy enough.

Finally, I have an El Cheapo (Takamine Jasmine) 3/4 size that is so easy to play it's embarrassing; 615mm scale and 48mm nut. Unfortunately, with it's plywood construction, it sounds like a cross between a guitar and a Ukulele.


I am considering the Cordoba Cadet since it has a solid cedar top and the Cordoba I currently have is a beautiful guitar with a beautiful sound.