2 recordings of my playing.... online

[edwardcav]

Hi all.

Well this has been a long time coming. I recorded these pieces for an audition, along with a third which I could not add because he is a living composer.

http://edwardcavanagh.cjb.net

The bach prelude is played ok, and sounds ok i guess, but a big shame - I have taken this piece into a masterclass and it has not reached its potential.

Romance de los Pinos is probably the most moving piece in the whole of guitar repertoire. I have not, by a long shot, played this piece to its potential. I was reluctant to put this piece up, but its there and you get the general idea, despite my dynamic ignorance.

I have just came out of the studio, a three hour session. I underestiamted how hard it was, I felt underprepared with RDLP, and became frustrated easily.

Feel free to comment.

[Jeffery_Doty]

Edward,

Sounds fantastic to me! Hope I can play to that level someday.

Jeff
Oregon

[jmp]

Edward,
A tour de force on both pieces. Masterful playing! I can only hope to ever achieve that level.
I see you played a Ramirez 4E. If you have a moment, I'd like to know your thoughts about the Ramirez 4E guitar (likes, dislikes etc.)

[cdikland]

I third (second) the opinion(s) expressed above. Generally speaking, Bach is not my favorite however this particular piece I rank within the top 10 of my all time guitar favorites. Someday I hope to tackle it myself and hope I can play it as well as you.

Recording studio huh?? That must have cost.......

BTW: your "contact link" doesnt include your email address. Are you trying to tell us something :D

[APERTURE]

--

[CarlosJR]

I have to say the Bach prelude sounded wonderful to me. Id like to know how did you record this, i know you mentioned it was in a studio but how does someone go about getting some studio time? Also, how is the recording process for classical guitar?

[NGiorgio]

Edward,

Very nice work. I play the Bach prelude, so I can appreciate your version. I do not play the RDLP but am familiar with it. Well done and keep practicing.

[M. Stephenson]

Very nice playing. I like your tonal inflections, something I have yet to master.

Recording is very hard. I sometimes do 10 takes of a song before I land one that is 'acceptable' when compared to the other takes.

I have the sense that you are not totally letting go with these pieces. This is the first time I have herd the RDLP piece, but I am used to hearing the Bach piece played on a Cello (imagine that) and it was a little faster and more playful.

I can not fault you on the playing at all, it is spot on, but I think it needs more spirit.

How to do this? Not real sure. When I hear it I know it, but I am seldom able to duplicate it in recording. I hvae played pieces thinking "I am in the zone on this one" only to listen to the recording and finding out it sucked. Also, I have played pieces that I though were just OK only to find that the spirit really came thru in the recording. I am still trying hard to find it myself, so perhaps that is why I see it in your playing as well.

Anyway, your playing is very good and I hope to hear more of your pieces in teh near future.

[edwardcav]

Hi all. thanks to everyone for the replies.

dover-jay: Mine is a cedar topped 4E, and in the last 6 months has opened up and sounds much more mature. It is still a fair whack off being a handmade concert instrument, but in recent times has got that step further. A little dry the sound is, but it does me fine, for now. The gallis make it sound a lot better.

cdikland: I'll fix that email thing up straight away. It is a great piece of music, one of the few of Bach's I like. The studio was very cheap, the gear wasn't top quality but it was enough for what I needed. AUD$35 per hour, and those tracks took three hours.

APERTURE: the guitar pictured is my old Yamaha CGX-111sc, which is a poor instrument. I only recorded three (one is not up there, I think I need permission) for a masterclass audition with either Fabio Zanon or Denis Azabagic. Whilst I would love this opportunity to play for them, my chances are, well, lets just say that there is quite a bit of talent in Australia. I promise not to record again until I have a better guitar, a better studio and a more refined musical knowledge.

CarlosJR: Let me assure you that the approach I took to the studio was very un orthadox, and whilst being unprofessional, the man did know a fair share of recording music... Mostly rock bands, though I'm afraid. We used to condensor mics, in a variety of positions. Those recordings cost $100 all up, probably $75-80 US ??

M. Stephenson: Generally, with recording, I opted to take a more strict style. In a live performance, a more varied and expressive performance would be ideal.

Everyone: Romance de los pinos, is still, a great shame but I think you can get the gist of my playing... Try to source Segovia's or Parkening's or Romero's recording of this beauty.

I'll keep you posted as to how the masterclass application goes. After my first in january, I'm ready for another! 8) bring it on

[chaz]

Hey, Ed. Thanks for sharing your recordings. Sorry to say I didn't listen to the bach (it's only that i've heard it a bajillion times and it gets a little tiresome). I reeally liked the torroba, though. I really want to get around to playing some of his stuff. The recordings sound a little dry- many guitarists would probably prefer a bit of reverb, but it's your choice. Ever think about getting a recording setup of your own? It'd keep you from spending on having someone else recording it, expenses to travel to studio, less stress since you're not recording on the clock, more comfortable at your home, etc. A good recording setup would be really beneficial to any guitarist who is into recording, for fun or for business. Mine was moderately cheap. 300 for the recorder, 150 for mics and cables, 60 for mixer. So, for around 500-600 bucks, you could have a pretty fair setup. Tell me if you're interested in hearing more about the setup, but you can listen to what i can get it to sound like with my current setup:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/chazrogers.htm

You can listen to whichever ones you'd like to, but only the afro-cuban lullaby was recorded with my new setup.

again, nice job on the RDLP

-chaz

[cdikland]

The recordings sound a little dry- many guitarists would probably prefer a bit of reverb, but it's your choice.
-chaz

chaz

I was going to disagree with you as I felt that edwardcav's recordings retained the accoustic sound I expect to hear from a classical. Unlike so many home recordings that seem to make a classical sound like it is equipped with an electronic pickup played through a Fender pro-reverb amp. Then I heard your recording of afro-cuban lullaby.... :shock:
Very, very nice. It sounded like you were playing in my office.

What Microphone(s) do you use and how are they setup up?

[keith]

hey edwardcav: how did you bribe john williams to do those pieces? that was him was it not? if that was you then this guy, john williams must be your stage name. :wink:

were those galli trebles you used?


oh by the way: as we would say here in new england: wicked awesome playing there dude.

[Henry Wells]

very nice work. I have heard the Bach a zillion times but never with so much variation in tempo. Some will like it, some not, I suppose. It certainly sounds unique to my ears. Good job all around. Thanks for sharing.

[chapmab]

Anyone want to comment on listening to your own recordings to help improve your playing? I think it might help me evaluate the intonation and expressiveness because, like a previous post, it's hard to critically evaluate what you're playing when you're playing it - for example it might seem like you're over-exaggerating the expressiveness, etc, when you're playing but the recording may not reflect that at all - maybe it helps to balance what you actually hear with what is actually audible to others.

Any comments?

[edwardcav]

chapmab: if by that post you are encouraging ppeople to analyise their own playing, let me assure you that I have done this. I am frustrated for the tempo speeds up at places, and although some are intentional, a few instances aren't. Also I am a litle frustrated with bach:prelude because a few key phrases I didn't hit every note clearly, if at all, and because of $$$ and the studio, I could not redo them.

kieth: thank you my friend. John Williams actaully recorded this piece when he was 17, and now I am at this age and I have done the same. Its all a little freaky, but if all goes to plan I'll be playng Concierto de Aranjuez in no time!!!

It was actaully a whole set of Gallis, but a little note on the trebles, I have noticed that they are prone to scratching. Once the treble is scratched, it makes a very un-musical screech when the nail is pllanted and plucks. If this means I have to change Galli trebles a kittle more often, so be it, that sound of new Galli trebles is the best in the world 8)

Jonny? Have u heard it?

[keith]

hey edward: one thing i have found that helps prevent nicks--use a 600 emory paper to smooth out the edge of the nail. i also keep a piece of paper in my wallet for emergencies. you are only 17? yikes, so young and it looks like your hard work is paying off. when you get famous send me an autographed copy of your first c.d.

[edwardcav]

hahah OK

[Jonny Hotnuts]

I have Ed, and I intended to reply sooner but have been dealing with some major contracts with a few of my key clients and they have been eating my time.

I think you did a very nice job.

There are a few fingering glitches, but you don’t need me to tell you this. And it is not important. The essence of the song is there and nothing is bad enough to make the tune hard to listen too.

And the fact that you did it in a studio makes it a greater accomplishment. I all too well know how daunting it is to perform in a studio. And if you are anything like me, a song that I can tear apart any given day of the week becomes harder when the mic is on or there is an audience. You also don’t have the advantage of doing 50+ takes in a home studio if you wanted.

With all that said,

Next time you are in Portland Oregon USA, I’ll be buying the beer!

Funny, I thought you were older.
And you sort of look like me as well.
What sort of work do you do?

[edwardcav]

Still at school, in my final year.

Next year I'll be applying for Canberra School of Music for a degree in guitar performance.

Thanks again for all the replies.

[thaddeusb]

Hey ed,
nice picture!! That aside, beautifully done! The bach was my favorite. It was a little slower than I have heard it in the past but who cares. Where ever you feel it the most is best and you really seemed to feel it there. I have said in the past that bach is hard to make sound more than just a bunch of notes but you pulled it off brilliantly. It's nice to know we have something else in common, Im applying for music colleges next year, too. I dont know about you but it kind of scares me. Anyway, nice job and good luck.

Thad

[nikpearson]

Nice job Edward! I've never played the Bach prelude on guitar but have spent many a long evening trying to master it on mandolin without success.

Your playing is nice and clean but I'm not so sure about all the tempo changes. Were they deliberate?

Keep up the good work. You're a braver man than I.

Regards

Nick

[edwardcav]

nikpearson:

interested to hear why you think I am brave...

The tempo changes werent meant to be so deliberate, but of course, nerves will "deliberafy" any subtle interest injected into phrases.... perhaps they wern't so deliberate - that cello suite prelude is very rhythmically straight and consistent. Are you used to the cello version? semi quavers the whole thing.

[nikpearson]

Hi Ed,

Yep, I've heard many versions of the Bach prelude on the cello bu only one or two on guitar. Whilst tempo changes can add to the drama of a piece there's always a danger of 'over egging the pudding'.

The reason I said you were a braver man than I was simply down to you making your playing available to everyone on this forum. I think I'll be resisting the urge to upload my own feeble efforts for a little while yet.

Regards

Nick

[edwardcav]

thanks nik. i understand.

look forward to hearing your recordings when they become available.

[Keelor]

My english is bad, so I warn you : this post is neither bad/spiteful/wicked/tick the correct answer :mrgreen: nor condescending.
Moreover, it's only my opinion. And I'm not an expert. ;)

I don't like the way you play Bach's prelude.
As for me, your interpretation is too free, and not baroque enough.
But it's respectable though.

I don't like excessive rubato, brutal tone changes (53")...


Nice job though. ;)



Jacques.

[Jonny Hotnuts]

That is one reason I like playing CG.
THere are many different opinions on how things should be played. And while I can always answer with "lets here you play it if you don’t like the way I do it." But the truth is people like what they like.

I however am very green to classical music, meaning that I have never heard any of these songs played on anything but solo classical guitar, so I don’t really know or care if the way I play them is traditional or "correct" (within reason) as long as I or others like them.

Many people say you should not play Bach with too much rubato, and that is fine if that is the way they want they really like it. But I think Bach sounds great both ways. And really depends on the player. I also think that many peoples opinion is based off what a teacher as told them. With all of Bach’s songs with his vast and transverse styles it just seems odd that the average person would come to the general consensus that his songs should be played with little variation in time, tone and volume.

I say so what, lets break with the norm of tradition, if it sounds better with it play it, and don’t care what some stuffy old music purest touts and the way art should be created.

I have decided to record this song also. And I too will have some like it and some that don’t. As long as the ladies like it, I don’t care!!!!!!

[edwardcav]

Not before a Torroba one though, right Jonny?

:) loking forward to it... does this mean you are challenging me? 8)

[CarlosJR]

My english is bad, so I warn you : this post is neither bad/spiteful/wicked/tick the correct answer :mrgreen: nor condescending.
Moreover, it's only my opinion. And I'm not an expert. ;)

I don't like the way you play Bach's prelude.
As for me, your interpretation is too free, and not baroque enough.
But it's respectable though.

I don't like excessive rubato, brutal tone changes (53")...


Nice job though. ;)



Jacques.

I tend to agree on the rubato issue and baroque music, but tone changes in baroque music are really nice, as long as it isnt excessive.

Jonny, why always on the defensive? The criticism jacque gave was constructive in my opinion, I have never heard a baroque cd where the performer just overlooks this type of thing and plays the music without regard for the period etc..

[et041053]

Good work and good luck to your studies! Sorrry to say that the internet was not around when I was 17 just the color TV :cry:

[keith]

gotta throw my 2 cents in here. when one critiques music usually 2 issues (more of course can be thrown into the equation) are germaine: the first is whether the performer played the notes correctly, in time, etc--this we usually call "technique". the second issue we can call "the feel of the piece". this is where it becomes tricky. some may say a piece should be played X way since it is an X piece. others say it should be played with the feel of the performer. this can be tricky though; e.g., a very lively piece sounding like a dirge.

i think a well thought out approach to analyzing a musical piece is to judge the technique (this is easy to do given it is very quantifiable) and to ASK the performer why he/she did it the way he/she did. this then allows the performer to provide a rationale for his/her approach. the key item is to open a dialogue so that both performer and critic are aware of each other's perspective and to allow for an education on both sides. for example, the performer may not know of a period style of playing and the critic can inform the performer or the performer had a vision of how the song should be played and wanted to breathe new air into it thusly, the critic (if he or she is fair) can see new dimensions to the piece.

[Keelor]

That is one reason I like playing CG.
THere are many different opinions on how things should be played. And while I can always answer with "lets here you play it if you don’t like the way I do it." But the truth is people like what they like.

I however am very green to classical music, meaning that I have never heard any of these songs played on anything but solo classical guitar, so I don’t really know or care if the way I play them is traditional or "correct" (within reason) as long as I or others like them.

Many people say you should not play Bach with too much rubato, and that is fine if that is the way they want they really like it. But I think Bach sounds great both ways. And really depends on the player. I also think that many peoples opinion is based off what a teacher as told them. With all of Bach’s songs with his vast and transverse styles it just seems odd that the average person would come to the general consensus that his songs should be played with little variation in time, tone and volume.

I say so what, lets break with the norm of tradition, if it sounds better with it play it, and don’t care what some stuffy old music purest touts and the way art should be created.

I have decided to record this song also. And I too will have some like it and some that don’t. As long as the ladies like it, I don’t care!!!!!!

Please don't be agressive. Don't you want to debate quietly ?

I think that the artist must play for the music and NOT for the audience. You, and only you, have to express YOUR feelings, your thoughts, and ignore the criticism.

Nevertheless, you must respect some rules, especially while interpreting baroque music.
I disagree with you when you say : "But I think Bach sounds great both ways".
"I say so what, lets break with the norm of tradition, if it sounds better with it play it, and don’t care what some stuffy old music purest touts and the way art should be created. "

Shocking. :shock:
So let's forget the harpsichord and the lute : now, we can play on electric guitars. Let's play Berlioz with electronic sounds. Let's spit on these old fashioned composers' graves, and let's play in a totally different way.

You can't be a good interpreter since you ignore "the norm of tradition".

Meanwhile, if you only purpose is to entice ladies, that's your problem. But be sure that you won't attract music-lovers...



Jacques.

[edwardcav]

I smell a bit of contraversy. Perfect for a new discussion thread.

[sorin popovici]

i listened to the mp3 a while ago ,i've read what u (all) said ,i relistened the mp3.


I liked the mp3 ,but i would like this prelude more if played faster .
No one says that if u play it faster it wont that beautiful.U can play bach at any tempo and it will still make sense.

Listen to segovia ,he plays it much faster .

I understand that u want your own interpretation,but interpretation begins
where u can play the piece at any speed and than choose the tempo.If
you can not play it faster (and relaxed in the same time ) the result is not u,is just a part of you ......how do u know it's u, if u never tried it faster ?

ok,u're an amateur like i am too ,so maybe i should not ask that much from u,but the discussion was about the ideal interpretation and i'm saying to u .....it's nice,but u can do better!
i like your mp3 ,but i like segovia's better ! ( so feel good,i compared u with grandmaster of all knowledge Andres Segovia)

[thaddeusb]

Well said Keelor (or Jacques) I couldnt agree more and I also just like to see someone stand up to hotnuts.

thad

[CarlosJR]

the fact that ed here attends masterclasses definitely indicates that he wants to perform pieces at a profesional level, and i think jacques advice was more useful than the usual "GREAT JOB IT SOUNDS EXCELLENT". You can't expect someone who is still a student (like I am) to be perfect, that's why we have to give honest advice, and part of playing at a profesional level is understanding different time periods in music etc.

[edwardcav]

Pfft I am not going to play a piece faster simply because Segovia did.

This piece was played TOO fast by myself overall, but I suppose it all doesn't matter now.

I got accepted for the masterclass.

[keith]

in reading the last few posts, especially the comment about standing up to hotnuts, and then re-reading jonny's post, my curosity is getting the better of me. what did jonny hotnuts say that so irked some folks to the point of wanting to "stand up to him".

jonny actually showed deference to the traditional style as well as wanting to play them in a style that had meaning to him (or to the ladies). it appears to me that he has respect for both sides of the interpretation debate and he said this very clearly. i do not see where challenging old stuffy shirts comes across so beligerent to warrant standing up to him. unless.......

[CarlosJR]

in reading the last few posts, especially the comment about standing up to hotnuts, and then re-reading jonny's post, my curosity is getting the better of me. what did jonny hotnuts say that so irked some folks to the point of wanting to "stand up to him".

jonny actually showed deference to the traditional style as well as wanting to play them in a style that had meaning to him (or to the ladies). it appears to me that he has respect for both sides of the interpretation debate and he said this very clearly. i do not see where challenging old stuffy shirts comes across so beligerent to warrant standing up to him. unless.......

I guess it depends on the way you interpret his comment, but if youre going to play classical guitar you shouldnt just play it anyway you want to, considering most of the time we don't write the pieces we play we should follow certain guidelines when playing classical music, so they sound how the composer imagined it. Especially really old music like baroque.

[Jonny Hotnuts]

Thanks keith, I do suppose I come across a bit strong at times. But truth be known, though there is nothing that really warrants standing up to me in this post, I really like it when someone challenges my opinions. And if someone gets mad along the way so be it.

Funny thing is, I am really a nice guy, competitive to a fault maybe but the first to help you change a tire when you have a flat.

[edwardcav]

So my masterclass is with Fabio Zanon, and it is taking place at the Newcastle Guitar Festival.

Just thought I'd confirm, I got confirmation a week ago.

I'm going to perform Maximo Diego Pujol's Preludio Tríston.

wish me luck

[classicalmark]

Greetings friends,
Great playing Edward!!
Congratulations on your master class, it’s an experience you’ll never forget.
Controlled tempo variations are some of most dynamic and expressive elements in music. They allow the music to breathe and create suspense...without these variations music would be somewhat sterile I’m afraid.
I’ve found that metronome studies are not very desirable with students and are often neglected resulting in the students sense of time being somewhat inconsistent. Students of music tend to let there command over a phrase, passage or technique dictate the tempo in which they perform instead of intentionally using these variances to a desired effect. I cannot overstate the importance of practicing with a metronome!
With that said your playing is both beautiful in tone and expressive in interpretation, you’re doing well young man.
Respectfully,
Mark

[Faya]

Nice playing edwardcav. I enjoyed it very much. :D

Later

[NGiorgio]

Edward,

I am sure you will enjoy the experience.

Good luck .....

[absmiths]

This may be quite a bit late, but nice job on the recordings. I thought Pinos was better overall - technically and interpretively. The Bach was too slow for my taste - I have never heard it that slow anywhere. Also, why so few legados? You seemed to use free stroke on almost every note - Parkening uses legados very liberally to emulate the fluent sound of a Cello. Also, keep in mind that a Prelude is only the least significant of a suite of pieces, so you don't want it to take too long (this performance was almost three minutes - Parkening plays it in 2:22.

As far as personal integrity as an artist - there are QUITE a few times when as a professional you must perform a piece the way someone ELSE wants it. One example is when you are in an ensemble. The director or conductor will almost always cause you to use his interpretation - tempo, dynamics, etc, you are a tool in his hands. This will happen a lot in college. That is the reason why you study period music like the Baroque - (1) because there is some great music, but also (2) you learn to appreciate the music the way they did, and you grow as an artist. I was in a Collegium at uni which did all Renaissance music - extremely dull at first. But, after learning the music I actually began to like it a lot - something I never would have done had I just been given the music and had my way with it.

An artist must be as free to accept criticism of his interpretation as he is to give a defense for it - and especially at uni saying "Out with the old, in with the new" won't get you very far.

[edwardcav]

absmith:

I didn't want to post an update on this thread for the very reason that I would be critisiced again.

I understand our critisicm is valid, I agree with every word you say, but I have heard it many times from this forum alone. I know that the bach was too slow, I've accepted this, I am ready to move on and have been for some time.

Firstly, this was my first attempt at recording. Secondly, I have not being playing classical for long.

Its funny you mentioned the baroque era, I was instructed in my first masterclass to play this verrrry slow and understand every change back2front, before I speed it up and make it more applicable to that era.

This is what I have done, and my version of it at the moment is very different to that recorded a few months back.

But as I said before when Segovia was mentioned: just because someone else(parkening)recorded it that way, doesn't mean we all have to do it.

All I can say to you and those who share your opinion (and id imagine there'd be a few, because it is a poor recording) is that I am progessing with this piece, and have taken suggestions from this forum and distinguished teachers, and now my adaptation of this cello prelude is very different and more appropriate to the baroque era.

(deep breath)

[absmiths]

I wasn't necessarily criticising your playing - you played it very well. I also don't want you to feel like posting your playing makes you vulnerable - you should keep doing it. My response was mostly to people jumping to your defense and badgering anyone who tried to make helpful comments. I completely agree that a piece like this should be studied and practiced in small detail and slowly. That is what makes baroque music so hard - every change has to be instant and clean, and generally at a bouncy tempo.

I was under the impression from an earlier post that you actually intended to perform it SLOWER than the recording, that is what I was addressing.

Regarding Parkening and Segovia, they are acknowledged masters and while we don't have to imitate them, I think it is useful to study what they do, why and how, then determine for ourselves if we agree. If a student told me that he differed with Segovia's interpretation (or Parkening's, which tend to be less romantic), I would expect him to be able to justify it at least.

Anyway, I'll say again that those recordings show a lot of promise in your playing - just try to avoid the hole that many guitarists get into of thinking that outside influences are bad (considering you participated in a Master class you obviously are looking to others for improvement).