A question about mics

[portlandgreg2]

Hey Hotnuts or anyone else who records,

I'm about to purchase my first recording set up and I've got a couple of questions about mics.

-Do you use small or large diaphram condensers?
-Any advantage to one small and one large diaphram mic?
-How important is it to have a matched pair?
-Anything else to consider?


I don't know if this will help your response, but I play a nice GV Rubio Hauser. It's well balanced, nice coloration, etc. Basically, I'd like to capture the pure sound of the guitar or a slightly warmer but not muddy sound. I know it's more than mics, but I figure it's a good starting point. Yes?

Thanks for your help and to GSI for hosting this great forum.

[Patrick]

Greg,

I'll give you my opinion on mics. Keep in mind; it's only an opinion.

Mics are very subjective. Personally I like a mic that colors the sound as little as possible. The problem is, no one mic will cover all the basses. As you mentioned, sometimes the best approach is to combine a small and large condenser. Recording the classical and flamenco guitar are very challenging to say the least.

One of the first questions is, what is your objective? If you all you want to do is make some basic recordings for practice purposes or an occasional MP3, a modest priced small or large condenser will do fine. The next question is do you want to record in stereo? Stereo really opens up a whole new level in your recordings.

You can take two common approaches to recording in stereo. The first is to use a true stereo mic that has two mics built into one case. A lot of classical guitarists are making very high-level recordings with the Rode NT4 stereo mic. Personally, I've gone the route of matched pairs. I am currently using Rode NT1A's with very good results. NT1A's are large condensers. They are very transparent with crystal clear sound. I have also heard very good things about the small condenser Rode NT3.

You have to experiment, but I like to point one mic at or slightly behind the bridge and the other at the 12th fret, pointed back toward the sound hole. You would think the most logical position would be to place the mic at the sound hole. The problem is you can get an overly bassy sound, called "proximity affect". What I then do is pan the channels hard to the left and right on my mixer. This will give you a good stereo affect.

I have also heard using a small and large condenser in the matched pair placement is having good results. By using a small and large together you are getting the combination of each mics characteristics.

Unfortunately a lot of talk goes into microphones, but very little into preamps. Preamps in my opinion are as important, if not more so than a good mic. It really is amazing what a good preamp will do. You can use the low-end preamps inside a mixer board to get by, but you will definitely want to upgrade in this area.

And then you need a good mic stands, a compressor, software, a reverb unit and a second mortgage on your house. You can really drop a lot of dough on this stuff if your not careful. It can become just as addicting as buying guitars.

By the way, I am in Portland as well. You are more then welcome to come over and try my stuff out. I have some pretty good equipment and I may be able to tell you what not to buy as well. Email me if you like at: patharris at canby.com.

Here is a link to a short piece I did a year or so ago. My equipment is much, much better than I had then. http://www.lafalseta.com/Shelton_Farretta_flamencos.html

[portlandgreg2]

Patrick,

Thanks for the offer, I think I might take you up on it. Do you have any experience with M-Audio mics or products? I probably need to keep the price range between $100-200 per mic. I'm curious if you know anything about their Luna or Nova mics.

Thanks.

[Patrick]

Greg,

I own an M Audio 2496 audio card. They build some of the best cards in the business for the cash. They offer great support.

I have no experience with any of their mics.

Really, I am telling you, you absolutely can't go wrong with the Rode mics. I would have to believe more amateurs are using more Rode's for classical and flamenco recording than all the rest put together. The NT1A runs $200 and the NT3 about $180. If I was starting out and cash was an issue (isn't it always), I would get one NT1A and add to it later. You don't need to start out in stereo. You can start out using the low-end preamp in an inexpensive mixer and upgrade to a better preamp down the road. You will still use the mixer latter.

The trick is to buy stuff that you can use in the future. I put a bit of thought into it and have not had to backtrack much along the way. The problem we have in Oregon (maybe elsewhere as well) is a law that does not allow us to return a microphone to a dealer unless it's defective. It's a health code issue. So you have to be pretty sure when you buy a mic.

[portlandgreg2]

Patrick,

I like your idea of buying right the first time. One good mic is a better idea than two cheap ones. I'd like to pick your brain a bit about preamps, another thing I know nothing about. I'll send you an email in a week or so (we're taking off for the holiday).

I appreciate your opinions. It's nice to have something to refer to when I'm about to invest in something I know very little about.

Greg

[Patrick]

Greg,

Email me when your back. I'll have a house full of relatives next weekend as number two daughter is graduating from high school, but I'll be around during the week.

[portlandgreg2]

Patrick,

I've continued to do a little research since we last corresponded. What do you think of this set up?

-My Mac G4 (applause or boo according to your personal persuasion)
-A single Rode NT-3a or two NT-5's (I haven't decided which way to go yet. It's going to come down to funds for the extras like cables, stands, etc.)
-An M-Audio 410 firewire interface box
-And perhaps, a stand-alone pre-amp like the $50 ART MP, which reviews say are better than the integrated pre-amps in the interface. Maybe that's something I should hold off on and try only if the pre-amp in the M-Audio seems weak?

Does this sound like a logical starting point?

[Patrick]

Greg,

First off, I think you are fine with the Mac.

As for the 410 M Audio; I am not a big fan of "recording in a box" units. Personally, I like the flexibility of stand alone equipment. You have already said that the preamps are not as good as they could be in the 410. What you are then using is the A/D and D/A converters in the 410. I have heard an argument for firewire boxes is having the A/D and D/A converters residing inside the box versus the computer can reduce the noise level a bit. Personally, I think this is of little consequence with the type of equipment we are using. You are going to get more noise introduction form cables than the little bit from an internal audio card. Another issue with firewire units is possibly getting locked into using proprietary software. Also, I have heard of some major set up hassles with the firewire units.

I still think you would be better served with an internal M Audio 44 or a 2496 at a bunch less dough. I would then get the ART TPS II preamp (two channel). Keep in mind the ART MP is a single channel unit and does not have the "Voicing" features of the MP V3. When you want to upgrade to stereo, you will have to get an additional MP and they won't be ganged in one box. Not a big deal, but why have the hassle of two units. With a 2496 and the ART TPS II you will be at about $330 versus $400 just for the 410 and then you will have to upgrade to better preamps in the future. I am telling you, you will be blown away with the 2496. It's that good. The ART units are not top of the line by any stretch, but they are a great value. A friend of mine has the TPS and loves it and he's an electronic engineer. The 2496 will do all you want, plus it has digital capability. A lot of guys go with the 44, and never use the two extra inputs.

One thing I want to stress is not to buy equipment that you have to get rid of as you up grade. I haven't got the best stuff in the world, but I haven't had to undue anything dramatic. I still use the cheap little mixer I first bought.

From the folks I have talked with, I still think you would be better off getting one NT1 A to start with. If you are going to start out with one mic, I would rather see you get the large capsule NT1 A and then add a 3 A or another 1 A later.

As for recording software, you can spend a bunch and not do any better than N Track. It’s a great piece of software for something like 45 bucks. Don’t let the price deceive you. It’s so good a lot of pros use it!

Toss in a good boom mic stand and cables and your all set for not a lot of dough.

[portlandgreg2]

Patrick,

I forgot to mention I will probably buy a laptop as well by the end of the year, so a mobile interface will make more sense for me.

I really appreciate all the help. I'm planning making a purchase next week. Any suggestions on where to look? Local? Online?

Thanks,

Greg

[classicalmark]

Hey Greg,
Try this;
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040610074520068050217218412233/g=rec/search/detail/base_pid/701368/
I hear it's a great value.
Mark

[Patrick]

Greg,

In that case, the M Audio box should be fine.

Mark's on the money. Musicians Friend is the place to go for online. Local I would go to the Guitar Center. They have one on the East and one on the West side of Portland. If you buy a few things from them at the same time, they are quite aggresive in discounting. Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

[portlandgreg2]

So I've been recording a little over the past week. I've been busy and haven't had a lot of time to devote to one sitting, but I have a few questions:

1) Mic placement. Where to begin?

2) Room location. The two most logical places for me to record are either in my library, which is fairly small, has a lot of furniture and bookcases; or in a large room with wooden floors that has nothing but a piano and high a ceiling (20 feet or so).

3) My initial recordings sound a little dull and not like the sound I hear from the guitar when I sit in front of it while it's being played. Any ideas?

4) I have to turn the gain nearly all the way up on the interface box. Could it be beneficial to buy a pre-amp?

I'm quickly learning that recording is not an impatient man's hobby. I'm willing to go through the trial and error process but would like to hear more of your wisdom.

Thanks.

[senor_kasper]

Greg and Patrick,

I enjoyed reading your exchange of ideas. Recording is a challenge but a lot of fun. If you have the time, try listening to my samples at www.websbest.net/vega/samples . I used an M-audio delta66 board inside an XP based computer and 2 AKG condenser mics; a 451b pointed to the bridge from above (3 feet) and a 3000 pointed to just below the bridge, abot 3 feet away, about 45 degree angle, slanted across the sound hole. The mics were pre-amped via a mackie VLZ-pro (these are supposed to be very high quality pre-amps, and I tend to agree by the results, but agreee separate tube pre-amps may sound even better). Software was VEGAS 4.0 and Soundforge by SONY. Each mic signal was recorded into a separate mono track and eventually mixed with pannin about 1/2 way in each direction. A second set of tracks was created for reverb and a final mixed produced "by taste". No eq. or compression was used. Would like to know your opinion and hear some samples of your own.

[Todd]

Senor Kasper, that is an excellent recording man!!

Really nice job with mic placement.

You are using two mics, and you managed to get them
in phase.

How are you testing phase?

TK

Great playing too by the way.

[wbajzek]

Greg and Patrick,

I enjoyed reading your exchange of ideas. Recording is a challenge but a lot of fun. If you have the time, try listening to my samples at www.websbest.net/vega/samples . I used an M-audio delta66 board inside an XP based computer and 2 AKG condenser mics; a 451b pointed to the bridge from above (3 feet) and a 3000 pointed to just below the bridge, abot 3 feet away, about 45 degree angle, slanted across the sound hole. The mics were pre-amped via a mackie VLZ-pro (these are supposed to be very high quality pre-amps, and I tend to agree by the results, but agreee separate tube pre-amps may sound even better). Software was VEGAS 4.0 and Soundforge by SONY. Each mic signal was recorded into a separate mono track and eventually mixed with pannin about 1/2 way in each direction. A second set of tracks was created for reverb and a final mixed produced "by taste". No eq. or compression was used. Would like to know your opinion and hear some samples of your own.

Very nice! Mind if I ask what the guitar was?

[senor_kasper]

Thanks for the nice comments Todd. Phase.... :idea: hmmmm....tell you the truth, didn't even think about that :oops: , I am glad it sounds like we hit it right by luck :lol: . Please educate me a little on it, if you will. I do understand the concept of phase but would not know how to test for it (other by something not sounding right to the ear, as with out of phase speakers) or correct it. Would 2 identical mics guatantee phase matching every time? is phase the idea behind "matched stereo pairs"? At the end, I think a lot of this stuff boils down to whether or not your ear and brain enjoy the final product. I am hoping to hear some samples and more advice from you and all the guys posting here.

[senor_kasper]

Thank you wbajzek, the guitar is a Fleta model built by Mateo Calvo, a Peruvian luthier who currently works out of Chile. It has a spruce top and indian rosewood body, it sounds better (in my opinion) than any guitar I've owned. I've tested several Ramirez, Bernabe's, Contreras, and others, they are great, but still haven't found the one that would make me switch. I did play an Italian made guitar last year while touring with the quartet in Europe, it was a Scandurria (or something like that), wow....The guy has a huge waiting list and wants both your arms for it, and I still don't have the name for a freebie :lol:

[Todd]

Thanks for the nice comments Todd. Phase.... :idea: hmmmm....tell you the truth, didn't even think about that :oops: , I am glad it sounds like we hit it right by luck :lol: . Please educate me a little on it, if you will. I do understand the concept of phase but would not know how to test for it (other by something not sounding right to the ear, as with out of phase speakers) or correct it. Would 2 identical mics guatantee phase matching every time? is phase the idea behind "matched stereo pairs"? At the end, I think a lot of this stuff boils down to whether or not your ear and brain enjoy the final product. I am hoping to hear some samples and more advice from you and all the guys posting here.

Phase is really just delay between the two channels in the stereo
field.
You can find software phase meters and they tell you how in
or out of phase you are.
Basically, if the mics are generally the same distance from the
guitar, they wiil be in phase.
The mics can be at any angle, as long as their patterns
do not cross before reaching the guitar/source of sound.
I use 2 SM-81's set in XY stereo .
That is, one mic on top of the other, with the capsules
forming an X .
Here's some flamenco i recorded with this setup.
I play a Brune Cypress/Spruce flamenco guitar btw.

http://michaelk101.com/todd/toddmp3/bulerias.mp3

Again , great playing and great sound amigo!

Todd K

[Faya]

Very Nice!! senor_kasper. I really love the smooth sound.

Very nice recording!!!


Thanks :D


N.de Falla

[senor_kasper]

Phase is really just delay between the two channels in the stereo
field.
You can find software phase meters and they tell you how in
or out of phase you are.
Basically, if the mics are generally the same distance from the
guitar, they wiil be in phase.
The mics can be at any angle, as long as their patterns
do not cross before reaching the guitar/source of sound.
I use 2 SM-81's set in XY stereo .
That is, one mic on top of the other, with the capsules
forming an X .
Here's some flamenco i recorded with this setup.
I play a Brune Cypress/Spruce flamenco guitar btw.

http://michaelk101.com/todd/toddmp3/bulerias.mp3

Again , great playing and great sound amigo!

Todd K

Bravo Todd!!!.....Olé
You are a player !! I hope you don't mind my snooping around the rest of your mp3's, they are all phenomenal. Your flamenco is worthy of any flamenco cavern in Spain. I enjoyed your classical playing as well, and absolutely loved your jazz lesson to Jeremy. The recording is, of course, fantastic as well. I noticed reverb on your voice, during the lesson, is that natural room accoustics or electronic after-effect? I am planning to record a set of classics (Tarrega, Bach, Sor and Barrios Mangore) in the stairwell of a hospital here in town. I discovered it by accident, it has incredible accoustics and I'd like to do it completely free of any alectronic after effects, we'll see how it comes out. That was my main interest in learning about recording as in the past I had recorded in studios.

Thank you so much for the instruction and tips on phase. I find the mic positioning you use very interesting. I had tried mixing 2 451's but found the mixture lacking low frequency body, I ended up liking the 451-3000 mixture better. Are the shure SM-81's cardioid or supercardiod? have you tried the akg's that i use? what recording equipment and software do you use? did you play the bass in your recordings yourself?

I noticed you live in Maryland....if it is Baltimore...do you Know a guy that teaches at the Peabody cons. by the name Manuel Barruecos?

[senor_kasper]

Very Nice!! senor_kasper. I really love the smooth sound.

Very nice recording!!!


Thanks :D


N.de Falla

Thank you very much Faya. Take a listen to Todd's, I am sure you will love it. You may listen to more of my stuff at www.websbest.net/vega/

[Todd]

Are the shure SM-81's cardioid or supercardiod? have you tried the akg's that i use? what recording equipment and software do you use? did you play the bass in your recordings yourself?

I noticed you live in Maryland....if it is Baltimore...do you Know a guy that teaches at the Peabody cons. by the name Manuel Barruecos?
[/quote]

Of course, Manuel is one of my favorite players.
I'm not far from Peabody. I actually was just there meeting
up with Jeff C. who is also a forumite.
He was there for Manuel's recent masterclass.

Anyway, i think you have a great idea, wanting to do the record
with natural ambience. That makes a big difference.
I hope you can post more clips as you record them.
I'm sure it'll be very cool!! 8)

I have tried many mics, and ended up settling on the SM-81's
cause they seem to be the least colored. They have a little
high frequency boost, wich is nice, and i sometimes EQ some highs
out if its too bright. But i'd rather have it to bright than too dark.
When EQ'ing, its always best to cut rather than boost.
The 81's are hypercardiod. They also have lowcut filters wich is
nice for close micing. I unfortunatly dont have an ambient space.

As for equipment, i use the mics i mentioned,
I use an Aphex Thermionics stereo tube mic preamp, wich
i feel is the heart of the sound. Its super clean, and noisless.
Cost me an arm and a leg, but worth it.
My audio card is an M-Audio Delta 1010. Very nice 24 bit card.
It sounds great to my ears.
For software, i do everything with Emagic Logic Audio Platinum.
Very deep program. Steep learning curve, but its a
fantastic program once you learn it.

The bass part you asked about? Well, i wrote that in midi.
I'm using a virtual bass instrument called Trilogy, by Spectrasonics.
Wonderful bass sounds, that you can play on a midi keyboard,
midi guitar, or the way i do it, is step writing in the midi editor.
(within Logic)
IE entering in the notes one by one manualy with the mouse.

Glad you enjoyed them so much! I certainly enjoyed hearing
your clips. Your recording is better than most clips i've heard
on any of the forums. Very clean.
If you're ever in Maryland, give me a yell
toddk@comcast.net

Great talking to ya!
Toddk

[portlandgreg2]

Since my last post I've had the opportunity to record more. I purchased a longer, better shielded mic cable and that immediately canceled out any ambient noise that the mic had been picking up. Must have been electronic interference from somewhere. The ambient noise went from an annoying hum to dead silence. Well spent $20.

I recorded in the more open, hard-floored space of my home and had much better results. I'm currently experimenting with mic placement from about 10 inches to 2 feet from the 12th to 9th fret. The mic is at or slightly below neck level and pointing right at the fret or slightly angeled toward the sound hole. Trying to find that perfect spot where everything balances out, but at least the sound is not dull anymore.

I'll post a sample for opinions and feedback at some point.

[senor_kasper]

I use an Aphex Thermionics stereo tube mic preamp, wich
i feel is the heart of the sound. Its super clean, and noisless.
Cost me an arm and a leg, but worth it.

Hello again Todd.

I noticed they have 2 models: the 207 and the 1100, the second one being a "class a" and almost 10 times more expensive. Which one is the one you used for your clips?

Man, It would be so good to be close to Peabody and be able to attend the stuff that goes on over there. Manuel is one of the greatest talents of our time. There is a guy that I know from my country (Peru), he lives in NY, you have got to hear that guy, his technique and acquracy are incredible, his name is Jorge Caballero, have you heard of him? It is so very difficult to make it in the classical world though.

For sure I'll find you if I ever make it to Baltimore. Thanks again pal, I'll be sure to post some of my stairwell clips when i get around to recording them.
:D

[Todd]

Sounds great! I'd love to meet you in person.
I went to your site. Man, you are a GREAT player!
I was really impressed with your rep. I'd say you're going
places my friend. :)

BTW, i used the model 1100.
It ran me about 2800.00 usd when i bought it a couple of years
ago. That's crazy money for a preamp, but i'll bet you
can hear what i'm talking about in my clip.
Its near impossible to get that kind of dynamic range with a
lesser preamp. Its a hand wired preamp of course, so........
Its just like guitars, when play something
that was made by hand, you know it right away. It has
that special something.

TK

[Patrick]

We have so many people on this thread so I will respond to all of you that may be interested.

First off, senor_kasper. I really like your sound. Very clean and open. Had I mixed it, I would have tweaked the EQ a hair and added some compression, but other than that, I can't find much to add.

For your info, you must realize I play (try) and record only flamenco. Coming from that side of the coin, I tend to like the more "in your face" type of sound. By that, I like to back off the bass a bit and go for more in the mids and trebles. I also use a fair amount of compression. For those not familiar with compression, think of it as "automatic volume control".

One of the issues in recording the acoustic guitar is the basses have more energy than the trebles. If we are not careful, the basses can be too boomy and can override the mids and trebles. The logical conclusion is to then reduce the bass with EQ. The problem with this approach is we wind up with a thin sound with no bass punch. One way to deal with this is with a compressor. What a compressor does in theory, is reduce the level of "high volume" passages" and increase the volume of "low volume" passages. What we are striving for is a much more balanced recording. Compression is being used in most all stages in professional recording, from initial recording to mixing, and final mastering.

That all sounds fine and good, but if we over do compression, we can take the life out of the recording, so a little goes a long way. Compressors come in both software and hardware versions. I use both, but have not been overly impressed with most software versions. The best purchase I have made in recording equipment was to get an FMR Audio, RNC compressor. The RNC stands for “Really Nice Compressor”! I am telling you this little unit will stand up to compressors that sell for thousands. It’s that good. Period. When you get it, it looks like a joke. It’s in a little case with a few knobs, but man does it work. It’s already stereo capable, so you only need one. They are available for about $175. When you pass “Go” and get your $200, get one!

OK, for Greg.

“Mic placement”. Have you got a week! The only answer is to experiment. As a guideline, I really like to use one mic at the 12th fret angled back toward the sound hole and the second one pointed at or just behind the bridge. Both mics should be about 12 to 18 inches from the guitar. If I am using one mic only, I start at the 12th fret position. I try to not point the mic directly at the sound hole. You can get a boomy bass, that’s called “proximity affect” by aiming direct at the sound hole.

“Room location”. Most of us have very poor recording environments. Mine is absolutely terrible. One way to get around this is to take the room acoustics out of the equation as much as possible. One way to do this is to use what is called “close micing”. When we keep our mic (s) close (within 18 inches or so), we eliminate, much of the rooms acoustics. What we then need to do is bring the natural acoustics back in with “reverb”. The other thing to do to limit the room’s acoustics is to use a “Cardioid” pattern microphone. A Cardioid pattern will pick up very little from the back of the mic.

“My initial recordings sound a little dull”. Welcome to the world of recording. It may be just an issue of tweaking the EQ after you have made the recording. I know you are using a good mic so I would point my finger at the preamp. Like Todd said, you can’t believe the difference a good preamp makes. Most people spend massive amount of time thinking about which mic to buy, with no thought at all as to what they plug it into. So, yes, the answer is at some point you will want to upgrade your preamp. You also need to experiment with mic placement. As a rule the 12th fret position will be brighter than the bridge.

“I have to turn the gain nearly all the way up on the interface box. Could it be beneficial to buy a preamp”? The answer is yes, yes and yes. I am sure the little pres in the M Audio box are likely the problem. We talked about this before. Using some compression on your file after you have it recorded can also help boost it.

So there you go. Just my opinions. I’m a hacker like all the rest of us, other than Todd. Todd has pro stuff and is recording at a professional level, but it’s amazing what you can do with a few bucks worth of equipment.

For those interested, I co-wrote an article on recording the flamenco guitar (same for classical) that is posted on the Foro Flamenco web site. I believe you have to be a member, which is no big deal, to access the article. We go over all the basics and have audio clips so you can hear what we are talking about. Web site is www.foroflamenco.com The article is under “Recording Advice”.

Pat

[red]

Patrick,

-An M-Audio 410 firewire interface box
-And perhaps, a stand-alone pre-amp like the $50 ART MP, which reviews say are better than the integrated pre-amps in the interface. Maybe that's something I should hold off on and try only if the pre-amp in the M-Audio seems weak?

Does this sound like a logical starting point?

Hi Greg,
I'm considering to get the M-Audio 410 firewire box to record my guitar playing. Would you recommend it? You mentioned also that you had to set the gain at the maximum to get a decent volume. Is it still this way or did you add a stand-alone preamp? Please let me know how your recording has progressed.

Thanks,

Ray