MIDI conversion

[senor_kasper]

Hi everyone. Does anyone here have experience retrofitting a classical guitar with MIDI ready pick-ups? (RMC or the like). Any pitfalls? I know Godin makes a classical that is syntheziser ready but its natural unplugged sound is not very good. I understand Ramirez also makes one, no doubt it must sound better than the Godin but it is probably VERY expensive. I have a few pretty good sounding guitars one of which I would like to convert into a MIDI controller, mostly as a learning project, though I will probably have use for it in the real world as well. I bet (and hope) Pepe Vergara will have some good advice for me on this :)

[M. Stephenson]

I know this does not really answer your questions but...

I thought about going the RMC route, but the parts are about $600 - then there is the installation.

From reading the RMC lit, it looks like the new saddles fit into the exisiting saddle slot and that you shim the new mini saddles to get the correct string height. Sounds pretty straight forward.

Given that the Godin Grand Concert SA is about $1100 and that my classical guitars are not worth retrofitting, I have decided to go the Godin route (there is about a two month lead time and I have about a month of waiting left). I inderstand your concerns about the unplugged sound, but that is not a real issue for me.

I recently got a GR-30 off E-bay and it came with the GK-2A pickup. I have mounted the pickup on to a cheap strat copy that some gave me and I have started to get used to the world of MIDI. I have only had the system for about two weeks, so I am not real good at it yet. I can say that it is fun and that adding sounds to classical songs is interesteing. I have also recently purchased a Roland JV-880 that comes with an orchestra sound card hoping that it will give me more realistic sounds than those on teh GR-30.

There is a local luthier who has made a custom archtop that uses nylon strings and theh RMC system - it is a very nice looking guitar.

[senor_kasper]

Thank you very much for the feedback Stephenson. BTW, I checked out your site and recordings, very nice :) !! keep it up.

[Hucbald]

I am something of a pioneer in this field, having been a Synclavier Guitarist back in the early 80's along with Pat Metheny, Al DiMeola, and John McLaughlin. I've also gotten to know Richard McClish (RMC of RMC Pickups) recently.

Hear's the deal in a nutshell. If you want ideal MIDI translation, you need an instrument designed with MIDI in mind from the get go. Back in my Synclavier days I tried every single guitar that came along that had the old 24-pin Roland system. By FAR the best GUITAR of the bunch was the Steinberger GL2T-GR: It played fantastically well and had an amazing sound with the most uniformly superior tone all over the fretboard of any electric steel string I ever played. What made the guitar "live" everywhere - no dead spots at ALL - was the uniform density and resonance of the synthetic resin it was made from. Unfortunately, this also compromised the MIDI translation because the rich harmonics would confuse the translation program. I called it the "Arabian Melody Syndrome" because as the synth mis-tracked across the various upper harmonics it had an Arabian kind of sound to it. Conversly, the least fun to play and only "OK" sounding guitar was the Roland G-707 (The weird looking one with the neck stabilizer bar). Of course, it was dead as a doornail compared to the Steinberger, but it also tracked with the reliability of a stone axe. Guess which one I used?

Fast-forward to today when I have given up every steel string guitar I ever owned except for my 1974 Martin D-28, which is the first real good instrument I got when I was in high school. Now, Richard's Polydrive is a world better than the old Roland system I used, but the same principles are still going to apply. An acoustic nylon string guitar with rich overtones will NEVER track as well as a guitar made expressly for the mission. The MIDI translation software of today is less likely to give you the old "Arabian Melody Syndrome" because it's gotten sophisticated enough not to be fooled so easily now, but it will make you wait until it figures out what you "mean" or simply skip the note entirely. Probably the best nylon string electric for the job is the Godin ACS Nylon, but it has the skinny neck we classical players hate. Next in line would be the Godin Multiac Grand Concert SA, which has the 2" wide nut, and is Godin's flagship electric nylon string instrument. I have both the Grand Concert Duet and the Grand Concert SA. Guess what? The Duet has a MUCH better "acoustic" sound, and is lighter than the SA. The SA has a lot less harmonic activity going on (But still sounds amazingly good IMO, especially after I suffered for 15 years with a Gibson Chet Atkins CEC) and so is obviously made from the outset to take maximum advantage of the RMC Polydrive.

Now, you may end up with acceptable performance of Richard's system on an acoustic, but if you're going to go that route, I would suggest a middle of the road model without all the exquisite harmonic detail of the top shelf guitars. Trust me, you'll have a better chance of a happy result if you go that route.

Hucbald

[senor_kasper]

Thank you so much for your input Hucbald, I wish you would have been around last June. As it turns out, I decided to install the RMC setup in one of my classical guitars, I picked an inexpensive but good sounding one, my Yairi C116. It was a 'do it yourself' project that I enjoyed greatly. The final product came out great! but as you could have predicted, the accuracy on tone to midi conversion was not perfect, we quickly learned that it wasn't going to be good enough for writing directly to the computer, too many errors. However, it is still a very fun instrument, excelelnt for all kinds of interesting effects and stuff such as this sample recording: http://www.websbest.net/vega/midi/si_quisieras_saber.mp3
This was recorded by inputing the syntheziser output directly into the recording interphase (via line) to one track, miiking the guitar into a second track and inputing the pickup output from the RMC pre-amp into a 3rd track. The mixture of the guitar sound contained about 10% signal from the pickup and 90% from the mic system (2 condenser AKG's) I hope you enjoy it.

Thank you again

[Hucbald]

Thank you so much for your input Hucbald, I wish you would have been around last June. As it turns out, I decided to install the RMC setup in one of my classical guitars, I picked an inexpensive but good sounding one, my Yairi C116. It was a 'do it yourself' project that I enjoyed greatly. The final product came out great! but as you could have predicted, the accuracy on tone to midi conversion was not perfect, we quickly learned that it wasn't going to be good enough for writing directly to the computer, too many errors. However, it is still a very fun instrument, excelelnt for all kinds of interesting effects and stuff such as this sample recording: http://www.websbest.net/vega/midi/si_quisieras_saber.mp3
This was recorded by inputing the syntheziser output directly into the recording interphase (via line) to one track, miiking the guitar into a second track and inputing the pickup output from the RMC pre-amp into a 3rd track. The mixture of the guitar sound contained about 10% signal from the pickup and 90% from the mic system (2 condenser AKG's) I hope you enjoy it.

Thank you again

That's very nice! Do you have a foot controller to bring the synth in and out? I used to have two: one to bring the Syncavier in and out and the other to bring the guitar in and out. If you can nix the synth in some of the more complex scalar and rhythmic passages and bring it up when you are playing more slowly and deliberately or sustaining chords you can get a lot of mileage out of those "swelling strings" type effects. I used to actually stand ON my pedals when I performed so that I could bring the synth and guitar in and out as I pleased. It was kinda weird to watch, but normal never interested me much :wink: (Fortunately I was 6'2" and a rock-star skinny 160 pounds in those days. I think I'd break those old Morley pedals today :shock: ).

Hucbald

[M. Stephenson]

Very nice. You play very well.

I assume that this was all in one take.

Your guitar has a very nice tone, better than I can get from my Godin.

You seem to be doing what I like, having a slow attack orchestra sound the bass notes and not on the melody. (at least I think that is what you are doing). Having teh orchestr voices duplicated an octave lower might add more depth, but that is just my opinion as I like the rumbling of a contrabass.

I think that there is a place for your set-up and I wish that I had the funds to have a real classical guitar equipped with the RMC system.

What type of midi converter are you using (Roland GR series?) or does your system convert directly to midi?

Keep up the nice work.

[senor_kasper]

[/quote]
That's very nice! Do you have a foot controller to bring the synth in and out? I used to have two: one to bring the Syncavier in and out and the other to bring the guitar in and out. If you can nix the synth in some of the more complex scalar and rhythmic passages and bring it up when you are playing more slowly and deliberately or sustaining chords you can get a lot of mileage out of those "swelling strings" type effects. I used to actually stand ON my pedals when I performed so that I could bring the synth and guitar in and out as I pleased. It was kinda weird to watch, but normal never interested me much :wink: (Fortunately I was 6'2" and a rock-star skinny 160 pounds in those days. I think I'd break those old Morley pedals today :shock: ).

Hucbald[/quote]

I am glad you liked it, yes, I use the Roland GR33 pedal, thank you for the 2 pedal suggestion. I checked out you music and your pictures :D . It seems you were into classical stuff at one point, a lot of Carulli influence in your themes, very nice. What kind of music do you play now? still composing?

[Pepe Vergara]

..... I would like to convert into a MIDI controller, mostly as a learning project, though I will probably have use for it in the real world as well. I bet (and hope) Pepe Vergara will have some good advice for me on this :)
Sorry. I do not know much about recording devices or sound amplification by electronic means on a guitar. I am Segovia type of guy!!

[senor_kasper]

Very nice. You play very well.

I assume that this was all in one take.

Your guitar has a very nice tone, better than I can get from my Godin.

You seem to be doing what I like, having a slow attack orchestra sound the bass notes and not on the melody. (at least I think that is what you are doing). Having teh orchestr voices duplicated an octave lower might add more depth, but that is just my opinion as I like the rumbling of a contrabass.

I think that there is a place for your set-up and I wish that I had the funds to have a real classical guitar equipped with the RMC system.

What type of midi converter are you using (Roland GR series?) or does your system convert directly to midi?

Keep up the nice work.

Thank you very much for the compliment. Yes, it was all in one take. I use the Roland GR33 pedal. You are right about the synth triggered by the low notes. Thank you for the suggestion regarding the lower octave strings, there are infinite ways one can play with this stuff. I am working on a polyphonic piece played fully with one guitar, including some percussion and various instrumental voices. I know that is a simple task for a keyboard player, but interesting for a guitar player, I'll try to post it when it is half way decent.

[senor_kasper]

..... I would like to convert into a MIDI controller, mostly as a learning project, though I will probably have use for it in the real world as well. I bet (and hope) Pepe Vergara will have some good advice for me on this :)
Sorry. I do not know much about recording devices or sound amplification by electronic means on a guitar. I am Segovia type of guy!!

WOW Pepe, you finally saw my request for help, it was posted last June, thank you for trying to help though. I am a classical guy too, but I like to experiment. I first enterd this forum when I was trying to find the best home recording setup and got great advice from people like Todd, the staff from the Guitar Salon and others. These are the first 2 samples recorded with the final setup, I posted them last june
http://www.websbest.net/vega/samples/a_mi_madre_061604.mp3
and http://www.websbest.net/vega/samples/capricho_arabe_June3_2004.mp3

Since then I have recorded a whole buch of other classicals, mostly tarrega and Barrios, that will be my next CD. I am also working on an Afro-Peruvian/Jazz fusion project which will include 2 percussionists and a bass player, this is a poorly recorded and poorly mixed sample of the idea
http://www.websbest.net/vega/nuevos/Palenque.mp3

I enjoy reading the numerous pieces of advice you give in this forum.

[Hucbald]

I checked out you music and your pictures :D . It seems you were into classical stuff at one point, a lot of Carulli influence in your themes, very nice. What kind of music do you play now? still composing?

Gracias, senor. I intentionally took a sabatical from music. A real, literal sabatical: "a week of years" off. SEVEN years. I was very burned out back in '97 and thought it would be a good idea. During that time "away" I made all of my money outside of music and just composed what I wanted to, played what I wanted to, or not. Sometimes a year or more would go by when I wouldn't pick up a guitar at all. I really spent most of my free time riding motorcycles all over the country. Then I came back to music very refreshed and inspired about a year ago and now I'm gigging three nights per week (soon to be five) and composing again. I play about 1/2 originals, 1/4 classical and 1/4 contemporary music in my set. It's really quite strange. For example, I'll play Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" but I'll play American folk guitarist Leo Kottke's arrangement of it. I'll play "Greensleeves", but I play British rock guitarist Jeff Beck's version of it. I'll also have Mason Williams, Eric Johnson, Eddie Van Halen, Joe Satriani, Chet Atkins, Jimmy Page and Steve Morse in my set. About the only "dead guy" that I play is Bach.

Carulli. I had forgotten about him, but I used to love several of his pieces. I need to get some of his stuff into my set. Thanks again.

Vaya con Dios,

Hucbald