To Hell With Scales?!?!

[miramadar]

I read Manuel Barrueco's interview with Eduardo Fernandez. Everyone here should read it:

http://www.barrueco.com/interviews.shtml#interview-fernandez

As you'll read in the interview, Mr. Fernandez does not practice scales because they have "nothing to do with music". But my music teacher, and most other classical guitarists I've ever read about for that matter, swear by scales!

This leads me to another question...

I'm currently working my way through the Carcassi method. As we all know, most of the material is simply not the most "musical" music ever written. So, I'm wondering, why should I spend a year learning it all? I'm about half way through the method. Sure, the songs are okay, but I'd rather be playing something else. So, why shouldn't I follow Mr. Fernandez's advice (albeit I realize I'm expanding on his premise) and learn things I want to play? I'm currently trying to learn Asturias. The going is slow...but I'm getting it. I really am. I'm about 3/4 through it and it's not THAT hard. It's tough...and I figure it will take me 6 months to a year to really get down...but, honestly, I'd rather spend the next year of my musical life learning Asturias than learning the next 12 Carcassi Estudios! Is that bad of me????? Am I going totally down the wrong path here?

I've recently downloaded (from Eythor Thoralksson's site...thanks Sandra!) Albeniz's Cadiz, Mallorca, and Granada, Granados' Spanish Dance No. 5, Tarrega's Recuerdos De La Alhambra, Scarlatti's Sonata in E (K 380)and Bach's Suite Prelude No. 1 (BWV 1006a). So, I'm faced with an important decision. Should I spend the next 12 months of my life trying to learning some (surely not all!!!) of these pieces, or should I concentrate on finishing the Carcassi method?? I really need some help here. I don't have access to a real teacher...so you guys have to help me along.

[TheEvan]

I'm with Eduardo on this one. Except for Aranjez and a few other virtuoso level numbers, where do extended fast scales exist in real music? The most you'll find are 4 or 5 note runs, which can be practiced in the piece itself, or using Tenant's "speed burst" method.

On the other hand, I'd caution you against tackling Granados, etc too early. And once you do, you'll be imprinting the music on your muscle memory & your soul. Therefore I'd get a good edition of these pieces. I regret the few things I've learned from his site. The editing just isn't very good and there are mistakes. My opinion of course...

[Quinbus]

I've been working through Noads books for the last year or so. Very nice repetoire. I'll be happy to have learned most of what he has set forth.....

Perhaps you'd be better off with a different set of method books....

I also practice Segovia's Major and Minor Diatonic scales daily. All I do is run through each one once. As I'm learning more about the keyboard and music theory it has helped somewhat for me to see the patterns of these scales. Its also a good warm up.... but I can't see the benefit of hours and hours of scale practice. For my time Tennant's book has been the best return on my efforts.

[daniel711]

As for scales, they are fantastic for warm-up, and they are solely for the purpose of concentrating on good form and technique. When we play a piece we very often compromise good form and "go for the music". This is how it should be. So scales are the time to "go for the perfect form" (very valuable to me). As for learning all the Carcassi studies - I totally agree with you. Most of these are uninspiring, and new players need inspiration more than anything. My teacher recommends starting Bach as early as possible, as it is some of the best music AND provides all the elements of technique, interpretation, and reading skill. My study consisted of going completely through two method books (Shearer 1 & 2), a few Carcassi & Sor studies, and then right into advanced material. Good luck...

[Pepe Vergara]

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!! Scales has nothing to do with music!!! That is a big statement!! Let's see. If all I want to do is be able to pluck the guitar chords and memorize a piece, I wonder if that is music. Maybe it is, I am not an expert yet.

Let's see if an analogy can help. The alphabet (at least the one we use) has 24 letters. They combine to form words. Depending on how the words are formed, we have written languages, such as English, Spanish, German, Italian, etc. Incredible that with just 24 letters we can create such a mess. However, each language has a whole science and history behind it.

I think of scales as small languages created with some of the twelve letters (chromatic scale). It is incredible that Country music uses only 5 letters, Blues uses only seven (or five?), flamenco uses certain letters organized in different ways to represent their music. Scales are not the music itself, they are a language that interprets the music created by certain cultures. There is a lot more to this, I just want a true educated musician to help here. But definetly, scales are music and they exist, wether we represent them as scales and notes in our books, or if they are reprenented by other symbols like in many other cultures.

[C-1R]

Sorry Pepe, I do believe that we have 26 letters. Although I use to think there was only 22. (LMNO is just 1 letter, Right?!)

[Crazy_Horse]

Each etude you study should have a specific purpose with respect to developing some technical facility. I've been playing for over 30 years as a serious amateur, and have played many of the Carcassi studies, but found many of them relatively worthless. I still use #1 & #16 for warming up. Number 25 is a good technical study. I recommend developing each technique using etudes and especially pay attention to the right hand using a mirror or video tape yourself. Don't get too caught up in exercises; most of the time all one is mastering is the exercise itself. Seek out music that will develop your technique. Practice will be much more fun. I also recommend the Pumping Nylon video and book. I wish I'd had that when I was starting out.

[daniel711]

Pepe - I think your analogies are very well taken, however, I think the question went to whether it is important to PRACTICE scales, not to whether it is important to understand their significance. This begs the question, does one need to undersatnd music theory in order to play well? Most great musicians understand theory, but not all! Example - Luciano Pavorotti does not read music (believe it or not!), while Placido Domingo can memorize an entire operatic score on a plane! Who is the better singer? Certainly a matter of taste... But one thing is certain - learning theory can't possibly hurt. :idea:

[DWPC]

Of course Fernandez can afford to abandon tedious scales practice; he's a virtuoso and most of his energy is on maintenance and refinement, not building basic skills. I wonder what kind of scales practice he did to become that virtuoso. Would he have attained the same level in the same time without the tools of the scales? I think that's the real question. The skilled craftsman can built a house with fewer tools than the apprentice, but that doesn't mean the apprentice shouldn't use all the tools needed to thoroughly learn his craft.

[Pepe Vergara]

Sorry Pepe, I do believe that we have 26 letters. Although I use to think there was only 22. (LMNO is just 1 letter, Right?!)

I knew something was not correct. I learned in my kindergarten abut it. Since I went to Spanish school, we considere LL a letter, the ene (N~), another, CH is another letter. My Brazilian friend has one more. Ball park, it is about that.

[Todd]

My 2 cents is,, you really need to practice your scales.

You need to practice all techniques as much as possible.

There's nothing wrong with seperating technique practice time, and playing music time. You need to practice scales, as well as arpegios, tremelo etc etc...
Doing so prepares you for many pieces you will or may play. Practicing "a piece" prepares you only for that piece. Of course, performance aspects, and making the instrument "sing" is another matter.

Imho, far too many people jump too far into the rep well before they should.
I mean this relative to what the goal is. If you're just playing for fun, just play whatever you feel like.

If you want to be a great player, then that's something completely different. You dont want to just jump in to advanced pieces. You'll have to be Much more thorough. If you ever want to play flamenco solos, then make sure to double up on that scale practice time. :) Eduardo's methos may work fine. But the technique practice approach worked great for me, and still does.

Just my opinion.
i'm a long time pro.
Toddk

[Pepe Vergara]

I just talked to my friend who plays blues. His response is: If you want to improvise (like they do in blues many times), you need to know your scales very well.

[Pepe Vergara]

Picasso used to say to break the rules, you must know the rules. Mr. Fernandez probably knew the scales too well that decided that he did not need them for what he was doing. Again, all depends on what everyone wants to do. Sabicas could not read music (I am not sure he could read anything at all). However, his creativity came out in his compositions (yes, he composed, eventhough he did not write music. He just memorized it). Since he saw the benefit of recording (in writing his music), he asked a friend to transcribe his own music and print it on paper (smart thing). As a thank you, he gave him his famous Marcelo Barbero guitar (what a present!!), the one that he bought from Carlos Montoya. Yes. Music came first. Music writing and music theory was developed from music itself.

[APERTURE]

After reading the interview I think its important to point out how surprised Manuel Barrueco was by that statement and that he went on to say that he does encourage his students to practice scales.

[RNE2D]

It is very important to realize where Fernandez is coming from. If you have read any of his book Technique, Mechanism, Learning then you will understand. The question is, why practice something you will never play? Understanding that Fernandez studied with Carlvaro also helps to explain this type of thought. There are plenty of good players who practice their scales, but when it comes time to perform they freeze up. I know because I was one a year ago. It is much more satisfying to learn a peice and play it well than to rip through a scale of any type.

[daniel711]

RNE2D
What in the world does performance anxiety have to do with whether or not to practice scales?? If you have any tips on overcoming performance anxiety we'd all love to hear them :?

[RNE2D]

I realize, after re-reading what I wrote, that I wasn't very clear on that subject. What I meant was that if you were to take the time that you spend on scales and apply that to making music you will be prepared for your performances. For me, performance anxiety was all about being confident in what I was playing. Instead of thinking about if I will miss a note or a position I try to think of what I want to sound like. That leaves little room to think about being nervous. BTW, thanks for the link, that was an excellent article.

[Jubilee Valence]

It is very .... than to rip through a scale of any type. :twisted: I resemble that remark!! (it's all i know :lol: ) 8)