Throw me some motivation, Before I hang it up for good

[knucklebrain1970]

Ok, I don't mind practice. I have to practice more and play less though. I understand the err of my ways and my counterproductiveness behaviors hindering me, and keeping me from getting where I want to be. I want to master this instrument of classical guitar. My frusteration is with some songs.

It seems that I make the same mistakes over and over and over. Like Bachs Bouree, the one everyone and their brother plays, the last 4 bars of that song, I play over and over and over, like 80000 times and I still make the same errors over and over. I'm about ready to hang it up folks. So frusterating. My problem is that I have to master this thing, with ZERO mistakes, or not play it at all, and that goes for every song.

I've always had music in my life and I've always been able to play anything with strings with minimal effort. Electric guitar was my forte for years and it became so boring, that's why I'm back here. I like a challenge and this is a challenge. I however get very very angry when I play the same 4 bars of a song as much as I do and I still don't improve. I am contemplating getting a teacher as well. I just don't get it. Why does it have to take so ******g long to get good at this thing.

Another song I'm trying to learn is El Negrito by Antonio Lauro and that song is getting me very very angry as well.

I suppose most of my anger comes as I am always burnt out from the job I do and usually have no time to play/practice

If I had my choice folks, I'd move to spain, be a bum and practice 24/7.

Maybee next time.

Kevin

[daniel711]

Kevin -
Dude, you just need a slight 'tude adjustment, listen up... Everyone here can relate to your frustration - I sure can. Striving for perfection will be your (our) undoing. The first problem is that the modern recording studio has raised the bar. But it's not a real bar - do you think anyone can play an entire Bach suite without dropping a note!?? Nope, not even JW - but the recordings make all of us feel like beginners. That's number 1 - number 2 is learning to relax and enjoy the PROCESS. Yes, the process!! Focus on making beautiful tones, enjoy exploring different phrasings, make fine adjustments to your technique. Stop thinking of practice as a means to an end, but rather an end in itself. Even the top pros spend 99.9% of the time practicing, and maybe .1% of the time performing. If you're just holding your breath until you can get through the music perfectly, you'll never get there, and will soon tire and quit (as is your experience now). To suceed you must enjoy the process, and not be waiting around for the final product. Hope this helps...

[cdikland]

It seems that I make the same mistakes over and over and over. Like Bachs Bouree, the one everyone and their brother plays, the last 4 bars of that song, I play over and over and over, like 80000 times and I still make the same errors over and over.
Wow does this sound familiar. Lagrima, 2nd part, B7th chord. I blow it every time. I figured though if I practice the section over and over again I would eventually get it. Right? Wrong!!! I became a master at making mistakes which seemed permanently stored in my muscle memory. Hence my signature, "Practice makes PERMANENT". Simply repeating a part over and over again does nothing to correct the problem. You need to analyse WHY you are making the mistake, correct it and then repeat very very slowly. This has worked for me on new material I am studying but I have had limited success with old material. Somewhere I read that to correct one mistake you must repeat it ten times correctly before you can eliminate the problem.

Check out this website. http://www.guitarprinciples.com/
The book "The Principles of correct practice for guitar" is a well worth investment

[knucklebrain1970]

Thanks for the advice. It was my misperception that the pros make no mistakes at all. So what your saying is this is not true ha? I no literally nothing about classical guitar, nor do I even listen to it really as I don't like 90% of the stuff I've listened to. I like a very selective ammount of material. When I search for a song, I look for something that motivates me and gives me chills up and down my spine. A lot of the old school spanish stuff does that to me, as well as JS stuff. El Negrito is one song that I told myself, if it takes me my entire life, I'm going to play that. :lol:
Yes, I beat myself up over stuff too much, especially this. I expect perfection constantly in all aspects of life and life isn't that way. Thanks for the swift kick in the ass. Gimme more, who's my daddy?

[nebula_34]

Hey Knuckle,

I certainly can relate to some of the frustrations you feel, and it usually comes when I want to take things faster than my body wants to. For instance, say I want to practice right hand guliani study no. 5 at 144 bpm but when I get down to it, I can tell that my a and m fingers feel like fish flopping on a dry boat deck at 140, then I can easly become frustrated. Dont stop there though!!! What Cdik mentioned is invaluable... practice certainly does not make perfect.... PERFECT practice makes perfect (And again - the notion of perfection is hard to come by - dont beat yourself up over mistakes - just take it slowly and try not to make the same ones again). To attain your goals you MUST (we all must) take things slowly, and work up to the speeds we desire.

Play through those last few bars in Bourre and take them incredibly slow, watching your right hand one time, then the left hand the next. Where are your mistakes coming from? (Right or left hand) which finger is making the mistake, where was it supposed to be (as opposed to where it was -which was causing the mistake).

Work up to what you need, and do have fun. As much as practicing scales and such is totally necessary - it's worthless if you dont want to be playing - or if it only upsets you. We all will be frustrated at some point, but break into a favorite song once in a while - have some fun... then dive back into practicing those scales, arpeggios, etc.
ROCK ON!
-Adam

[nebula_34]

by the by... classical guitar has tons of beautiful pieces... listen around and i'm sure you'll many you love

[Jubilee Valence]

Hey Kev! Well I'll get stomped on this one :( BUT every "once in a while",I'll repeat my playing/practice on the ol' comfy strat, flattop or flam(which is a cheapo classic w/ action slammed to the bottom-can't afford 1 now...)& will note problems there w/ different perspective..& where neb "looks" at each fingering--yes! &cd--"10 times"..(sometimes I'll go 10 hrs /days whatever 'til it's down) & dan-"beautiful tones"--that's what makes it worthwhile..NOW-no teacher eh?-I read somewhere that"he who is self tought has a fool for a teacher"-of course that must be taken in context & w/ an open mind-Segovia being 1 example of self taught..well they say we accelerate along w/ a teacher & I plan on it right after the holidays(although the Dr's located about 80 miles away& I run a business 24/7, I hope to be accomodated or referred down accordingly..)--ponder..Jubi 8)

[deAlmeida]

if you can't play part of a song correctly, you are playing it too fast... if you slow it down enough, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to play anything at all...assuming you have acceptable technique.. play it slow and correctly at first...then you can start playing faster... I don't know why you can't get better at it, but for me, if I play something slowly and correctly, I can play it faster as I progress, etc.

any time you learn something new, I think you need to learn it slowly, and be able to play it correctly, and then it is a matter of bringing it up to speed

[Todd]

The reason you keep messing up that one part, is
because you have built the mistake into the piece.

Unwittingly of course.

You will find that if you learn a new piece from scratch, while
paying attention to all movements right from the start,
very slowly, preferably with a teacher, you WILL be able to
play note perfect pieces.

The problem that occurs is, you make a mistake in a certain
part, and you begin to tense up whenever that part is
coming up. This short circuits the messages to the fingers.
The fingers start to act out of habit, and incorrectly.

Though this only happens when one learns in the wrong way,
and therefore practices it the wrong way, and in many cases,
unfortunately, for too long, causing almost irreversable habits.
In this case, i think you may have destroyed your chances of
playing this piece with no stress in that particular area.

You are IMHO, better off moving on to a fresh piece, and developing
"Good" technical habits within it, right from the start.

I have many pieces that i dropped from my list, because i learned
them too long ago, and too carelessly to clean them up to snuff.
Why spend time correcting a ten year old mistake/habit?
Start fresh. :)
Toddk

[Pepe Vergara]

Ok, I don't mind practice. I have to practice more and play less though. I understand the err of my ways and my counterproductiveness behaviors hindering me, and keeping me from getting where I want to be. I want to master this instrument of classical guitar. My frusteration is with some songs.

It seems that I make the same mistakes over and over and over. Like Bachs Bouree, the one everyone and their brother plays, the last 4 bars of that song, I play over and over and over, like 80000 times and I still make the same errors over and over. I'm about ready to hang it up folks. So frusterating. My problem is that I have to master this thing, with ZERO mistakes, or not play it at all, and that goes for every song.

I've always had music in my life and I've always been able to play anything with strings with minimal effort. Electric guitar was my forte for years and it became so boring, that's why I'm back here. I like a challenge and this is a challenge. I however get very very angry when I play the same 4 bars of a song as much as I do and I still don't improve. I am contemplating getting a teacher as well. I just don't get it. Why does it have to take so ******g long to get good at this thing.

Another song I'm trying to learn is El Negrito by Antonio Lauro and that song is getting me very very angry as well.

I suppose most of my anger comes as I am always burnt out from the job I do and usually have no time to play/practice

If I had my choice folks, I'd move to spain, be a bum and practice 24/7.

Maybee next time.

Kevin


Welcome to the club!! Patience seems to be the solution. I did not have it. Then I got into lutherie. My first 15 guitars were a mess, I stepped on them or burned them. I needed all the patience I could get to be a luthier. If only one thing I learned from lutherie was to be patience. Now, I notice I am learning to play much better. too bad I do not have too much time for playing but for making guitars.

[Beumont_suite]

Knucklebrain, you sound like a very impatient, instant gratification type of person when it comes to music. Classical music is something you dedicate your life to, you heart to, and your mind to. You can't expect to pick out a few pieces from the genre that appeal to you, throw the rest away, and hope to become accomplished. If you're serious you should find a good teacher, one that will motivate you firsthand, correct your mistakes and point you in the right direction. One thing i do when i'm stuck on a chord or passage is to slow it right down to a crawl and play it until my hand is trained to naturally fall where it should. Only then do i concentrate on getting it up to speed. It works every time without fail. And do yourself a huge favour...start listening to classical guitar CD's to discover what else is out there at your level. You will be surprised and delighted at what you find.

[sseow]

kevin,
there are 2 points i can share with u here...
1. spend sometime on technical practice like scale and appreggio stuff....those will really help u technically
2. in chinese martial arts, there is one school called "tai ji"....when u c someone practice tai ji in Asia, it is like watching someone throwing a punch in a slow motion movie playback at 1/2 time speed. many people may think tai ji is not life threathening....but do u know when tai ji people really engage in a real fight, they can make the killer moves on opponents who are even double their size. so the take away from this is: practice at ease and at slow speed...then gradually increase the speed when u have more confidence....and if u can cross this obstacle, u will c yourself making that killer move.
seow
singapore

[justinG]

my teacher takes taichi, and has told me about this many a time. he also compares slowing down in hard spots to simple things, like siting down and standing up...when you were a baby you learnt by doing these things slowly, and over time, it became like second nature. Guitar is the same thing practice it slowly and correctly long enough,,, you can bring it up to speed and play it well if somebody had a gun up to your head :twisted: !!

[knucklebrain1970]

Knucklebrain, you sound like a very impatient, instant gratification type of person when it comes to music. Classical music is something you dedicate your life to, you heart to, and your mind to. You can't expect to pick out a few pieces from the genre that appeal to you, throw the rest away, and hope to become accomplished. If you're serious you should find a good teacher, one that will motivate you firsthand, correct your mistakes and point you in the right direction. One thing i do when i'm stuck on a chord or passage is to slow it right down to a crawl and play it until my hand is trained to naturally fall where it should. Only then do i concentrate on getting it up to speed. It works every time without fail. And do yourself a huge favour...start listening to classical guitar CD's to discover what else is out there at your level. You will be surprised and delighted at what you find.


Yes, you are absolutely right about the first sentence. I do realize what you said however and I have great respect for the few masters. I do plan to take lessons. For now, I usually spend a 1/2 hour on techniques such as walking strings, tremelo, and some other stuff, a 1/2 hour on theory and a 1/2 hour on song memorization (1 song at a time)
I am impatient, but only when I practice something 89,938 times and still **** it up over and over. That's where the teacher will come in handy and I realize that. I am starting from ground zero folks and I had a moment yesterday. I was not "ON" if you will. Other days, I'm completely satisfied with my session and feel as though I progressed. It's when the feeling of progression is null that I get upset. However I read every word of every post in this thread and welcome and appreciate all advice. I do understand completely that this is a life long commitment. I've read before and played before and lost interest. It's not that I quit because it was too hard, I got bored and lost interest because I was not involved enough, playing with others, watching players, listenening to music. To play, you have to keep the fire lit. The fire went out 10 years ago when I played for 1-2 years and took lessons, caus I let the fire go out. That is not going to happen this time. I'm here to stay. I've played electric, I play and own banjos, I've sold everything except 1 banjo and I am sticking to the classical, with the occasional strum on the banjo. I got rid of the electrics as they do nothing for my progression on the classical and I don't want any other instruments to distract me. Having that banjo around is eating at me sort of, but that's the way I am with everything, all or nothing. A fault of mine? Definitely.
Thanks for the help ladies and guys.

Kevin

[fernsemer]

knucklebrain1970.........Hello!

I can feel for your frustration! I know what it is like to to practice and
practice, and yet it will not come together for you.

I've looked over the advise in this thread and most of it is pretty good.
However,...there is yet another way of looking at this that few people think
about or even stop to think is important. That is the traditional way guitars
are made. I say this because I have observed over the years that most
fingering problems on the guitar are nothing more than a string count
problem.

Consider for a moment!.....What an increase in string count can do to
help. More open string notes mean less notes you must fret. This means
less work for your fret hand for the same music. This means a gentler,
milder learning curve. A faster learning curve. A more fun guitar playing
experience.

It sounds to me whether you know it or not, that you are a customer for
an 8 or 10 stringer. Whether you know it or not you may be a candidate
for a non traditional guitar route.

Something to think about.

[justinG]

I havent had any expierience with >6 strings, but wouldnt they be more time consuming and harder to play...wouldnt you have to refinger all the music? DOest it even really matter if you have a >6 string guitar? do you get different sounds?

[Jubilee Valence]

knucklebrain1970.........Hello!

I can feel for your frustration! I know what it is like to to practice and
practice, and yet it will not come together for you.

I've looked over the advise in this thread and most of it is pretty good.
However,...there is yet another way of looking at this that few people think
about or even stop to think is important. That is the traditional way guitars
are made. I say this because I have observed over the years that most
fingering problems on the guitar are nothing more than a string count
problem.

Consider for a moment!.....What an increase in string count can do to
help. More open string notes mean less notes you must fret. This means
less work for your fret hand for the same music. This means a gentler,
milder learning curve. A faster learning curve. A more fun guitar playing
experience.

It sounds to me whether you know it or not, that you are a customer for
an 8 or 10 stringer. Whether you know it or not you may be a candidate
for a non traditional guitar route.

Something to think about. :? nice try ...... most noble.....perhaps what with 1 1/2 hr dedicated per day,our brother could squeeze in some jut keen do for discipline..(KG?)

[fernsemer]

justinG.....Hello!

Originally posted by justinG
"I havent had any expierience with >6 strings, but wouldnt they be more time consuming and harder to play...wouldnt you have to refinger all the music? DOest it even really matter if you have a >6 string guitar? do you get different sounds? "

I started out with 6 stringers, then I went to a 7 stringer, then to an 8
stringer, so I do know a little something about greater >6 stringers.

All the bad things you want to say about >6 strings is true IF, and that is
a big IF. If you are dumb and stupid in how you
string and tune the guitar.
The secret is in the tuning. If you get the tuning right, and in combination
with the higher string count, you can get more open string notes sprinkled
thruout the music you're trying to play. These are notes you don't have to
fret. This makes the burden on your fret hand less demanding, Which in
turn makes for a faster learning curve. A more fun guitar playing
experience. Which in turn leads to a better memory of the piece you're
trying to play. At least for me it does.

" DOest it even really matter if you have a >6 string guitar? " This I think
really depends on the individual guitarist and what their vision is for the
instrument, and the music they want to play. How they want to play it.

Some will say that with a 6 stringer, you have to spend more time
practicing. This is absolutely true. As the weaknesses in the current design
standards passed down from luthier to luthier are not going pass away any
time soon.

What you have to ask yourself is this. What is your time worth to you?
We have busy lives! As much as we love the guitar, we also have other
commitmits that also demand our time. The 6 string guitar because of it's
weaknesses in design is a very demanding instrument when it comes to our
time. So what is your time worth to you?

Personally.....As much as I love the sound of the guitar, I never have had
the neccessary time it takes to invest in the 6 stringer to make it worthwhile.
When I pull my guitar down from the wall, I don't have the time for
contorted fingerings, impossible barr chords, alternate tunings, or any other
goofy gimmick it takes to make the music work.

I need a guitar with an adequite string count, in a well thought out tuning
that makes sense. That is flexibel over a wide musical scale. That can
handle a wide range of key signatures and octaves with a minimum of muss
and fuss. But thats me! You may be different.

As to your question about different sounds with an increased string count.
The answer is not so much a different sound, but a fuller, louder sound.
Also the possibility of fatter chords.

I hope this helps.

[fernsemer]

Jubilee Valence.....Hello!

Originally posted by Jubilee Valence

"nice try ...... most noble.....perhaps what with 1 1/2 hr dedicated per day,our brother could squeeze in some jut keen do for discipline..(KG?) "

I think you're trying to say he just needs to practice more. Am I right?
Please Clarify!

[Faya]

Hey Jubi,
i think you mean "Jeet Kune Do", :lol:

i hear ya my brother. 8)

Peace

[Jubilee Valence]

Hey Bros!!! Nacio --see what happens when 'ya learn from a "book"-(can't even spell it right!!)-1 "el ka-bong" to me...1/31/05 I'm 49..let's see,isn't there a little "Vince" hittin' the camps a few days later..digits ok?..Ferm! of course! (I'd better not clarify on this one!) Where can we see pics etc & info on the >6 scene & the fan fretting?I was waitin' for Mischa to add more details...it's gettin' scary if you guys are understanding me!! Drac's even startin' to post like"damn Jubi"(my 'other' evil twin :twisted: ) 2005 in the "ZONE"...yo'da'little lady-hooo 8) edit:Vicente!(forgot to disconnect my Italian spell-pro...don't fly huh?..ok-2 "el-kabong"s) :wink:

[Faya]

hey... i can't spell either :lol: . Vicente due around the same time 8) can't wait.
Hand is gettin' better, thanks :D .
8) hmmmm...... :idea:

Vicente is Vincente is Vince. All the same my friend. No worries mate.

Peace :D

[fernsemer]

Jubilee Valence.....Hello!

Sorry if I had a hard time understanding you. I speak mostly plain English
or German.

If I understand you correctly....You wish more detailed information and
photographs of >6 string guitars. Try the following links.

http://www.novaxguitars.com/Pages/frame_GeneralInfo.html
http://www.novaxguitars.com/Pages/frame_Links.html
http://www.novaxguitars.com/Pages/frame_Links.html

It's a good starting point to understanding the potential of the guitar
beyond 6 strings. At least visually it is.

[justinG]

fernsemer, who was your guitar made by? Your amazing reply made me curious...im sick of having to bring seperate guitars to performances for tunings. Im not looking to spend a fortune here, just a decent >6 stringer.

[fernsemer]

justinG.......Hello!

My 8 stringer is a converted Daulphin 6 stringer built for me in the mid
1980's. The luthier was Kirk Sands out of Lagunna Beach, California.

At the time I didn't have a lot of money, so he suggested picking out a
6 stringer I liked and having the neck and bridge removed and a new neck
and bridge made for it. As this would be a cheaper way to do it. He did a
real good job.

However.....experience is a great teacher! If I could had known then, what
I know now, I would had chosen 10 strings in a fan fretted configuration to
get a much better range of octaves to work with.

Selecting the tuning you want to use is critical. The tuning I use on my
8 stringer is D, G, C, F, a, d, g, c Low to High. My tuning of choice for a
10 stringer would be A, D, G, C, F, a, d, g, c, f Low to high. In a fan fretted
configuration. But thats me. There are other options!

As far as getting a Luthier to build a >6 stringer for you....I only see this
happening in two possible ways.
1) You have to drag one off to his shop kicking and screaming before he'll
do it. They won't do it of their own will. They are too entrenched in tradition.
2) You have to bait them with money! And lots of it.

One possible source for a 10 stringer would be. Jim DeCava at

http://www.decava.com/

He specifically specializes in 10 string classical guitars. So far to my
knowlege he has yet to make one that is fan fretted. However....in an
E-Mail to me he did express an interest in building one that is fan fretted!
So thats a possibility!

Hope this helps!

[justinG]

thanks for the info! In the future i may have to get one of them :D

[knucklebrain1970]

Damn my thread got frickn pimped by the 8+10 string gods
:shock: :lol: :shock: :lol: :shock: :lol:

Kevin

[daniel711]

Really!!! And if you're not having enough trouble with 6 strings just add a couple more.....yeah, right :roll: :lol:

[Jubilee Valence]

Damn my thread got frickn pimped by the 8+10 string gods
:shock: :lol: :shock: :lol: :shock: :lol:

Kevin :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: ...I... :cry: :cry: ..wanna ...be ..a :cry: :cry: god :cry: ..too.. :cry: ..but..I ..only :cry: ..got.. :cry: ..six.. :cry:..strings.. :cry: ..3 notes..per string.. :cry: ..blazing..flippy..awwww :cry:..the pit... :? .. :) .. :D .. 8)

[fernsemer]

knucklebrain1970.....Hello!

Look at it this way. Usually what goes around comes around. Someday, if
you ever you have an 8 or 10 stringer, you may have the chance to move
in and ' pimp ' as you elequently say it, someone else's thread.
Won't that be fun?

[knucklebrain1970]

6 strings is plenty, you guys are nuts, what do you have 8" fingers or something? Jeesh

[Libre]

Back to the Bourree. Yes - I normally play the last bar or two with less than perfect accuracy. In fact, every single piece that I have ever played has one (or more) "spots". I deal with them in several ways. The slow it down and study approach is good. Refingering can also help (or not). No matter what, I can't play anything perfectly. When I am recording, I try to play perfectly and that causes my playing to suffer enormously, in terms of spontanety and expression. I can't even play one single note with total perfection, much less an entire suite.
We are NEVER going to do it perfectly. If we were synthesizers, maybe we could, but we're not so we can't. Do you love the music? Than blast it! Just do your best. I wanted to be a chess master but I couldn't so I stopped. I love Guitar more than chess, so I will never stop although I can't really master it.

[cdikland]

When I am recording, I try to play perfectly and that causes my playing to suffer enormously, in terms of spontanety and expression. I can't even play one single note with total perfection, much less an entire suite.
One of the best things about these forums is that one realizes one is not alone. Besides suffering from recordchokenytist, I dont do well when someone is within earshot of my playing either.

Without people and microphones I am a master and no one can prove me wrong... :wink: No, I am not conceded. Conceit is a fault and I have none... :P

[DJSouza]

Dear Mr. knucklebrain,

I don't think your problem is unlike any other and that we have all experienced this at one time or another. I think you have gotten some very good responses about how to get through the last four bars of the Bouree. Guess what? YOU'RE NOT ALONE!!
Part of your answer lies in the response you received regarding the process. Another key lies in the response regarding analyzing what you are doing in order to execute. Another answer has to to with your "tude adjustment" and slowing down to a crawl. I have two suggestions toward further implanting how to integrate.

First - patience. patience is a virtue. Practive being patient. Visualize to memorize. A teacher at a local University once told me. To memorize a piece you must memorize each note. This was difficult for me to do. I used the notes as a guide and began visualizing the movement of my left hand. Normally, I try to read through a piece once and take note of difficult/cumbersome passages, then I review each passage for fingering, mechanics and approach, I then focus on visualizing the mechanics of the passage as I play difficult sections. I do this two to three times. Unlike another respondent, I say, if you can play it three times without an error than you have memorized and conquered the passage/piece. Then, when I approach difficult passages like the last four bars in bouree, I close my eyes and let my fingers do the walking as I visuaize my left hand moving through part. My theory is that I am a triangle or prism behind the instrument. I can direct my thinking to the left or right hand individually or simultaneously or gravitate in or out of the Triangle's apex all the while visualizing, sencing and feeling the music pour out the sound whole like thick chocolate waves of sound.

Got Milk? Are you motivated now?

David

[knucklebrain1970]

Yeah thanks guys, I have good days and bad days, I had a moment. I'm not quitting though, I quit 7 years ago or so, but not out of frusteration, I couldn't find music I liked enough to play. Now with the expansion of the internet and whatnot and discovering new books and such I don't have enough time to play all I want to play, which is good I guess.
Kevin

[dap22]

Hi Kevin,
This is my first time posting here, I have been reading these threads for the past couple of weeks and finally decided to register so I could post and hopefully contribute in some positive way.

I have a question- How much technique do you practice each day? Do you practice rest and free strokes in every combination with every finger with you opposite hand fretting many positions on the neck? Do you practice slurs on every string with every finger combination in many positions? Do you practice scales? Do you practice finger independence excercises? Because that is what it takes to be a successful classical guitarist. That is what makes US different from THEM (the 'rest'). We focus and emphasize perfect technique. Sure, maybe we don't do all of these excercises in every sitting, it would take many hours, but you should be spending around an hour every day only on your technique. Do different excersices every day. How do you think Manuel Barrueco, David Russel, Xuefi Yang, Randall Avers, etc., practice?
In a masterclass with Stephen Robinson, I was told something which changed the way I forever look at guitar and practice. To quote him, he said: "We are NOT professional performers, we ARE professional practicers."
Look at Manuel Barrueco and David Russel, it seems like they are always on tour...but the practice more than they perform. So as professional practicers we need to learn how to be effective in our field of practice. Each time you sit down, set a goal, and not an unrealistic goal, but set a goal, and practice that goal. Maybe your goal is to not buzz a note, or change your tone quality in a section of a piece, etc. Thats what we, as classical guitarists, do. And not only do we do it, we love it to the point where it almost makes us cry, break down, or bleed. We practice controling what we are doing on our instrument. And at the end of the week or month or year, our reward is performing in front of an audience and being rewarded with claps of approval (hopefully!).
Healthy technique is probably the most important thign in classical guitar.
So I ask again, how much technique do you practice each day? I don't need a reply, just ask yourself that question.

The other thing is, El Negrito, by Antonio Lauro is a BEAUTIFUL piece. It grabs you at the beggining of the piece and takes you all the way to Venezuela and at the end of the piece, when you open your eyes, you realize that your excellent playing of that piece is what allowed you to escape your everyday problems and travel to the other side fo the world (unless you live in Venezuela...then maybe you will want to be playing Verdery, Harrison, Brouwer, York, etc.!!!) El Negrito is also not an easy piece. I am assuming, and I do apologize for assuming because it is a dangerous thing to do, that you are a begginner. And nothing wrong with that, we were all at that same stage, you can't be goodo before being a begginner. Actually, I still consider myself a begginner (its hard not to when you listen to people like Randy Avers, Xuefi Yang, Barrueco, Russel, Jouve, etc!!!) But an honest suggestion is that maybe you should be workign on something else. I don't mean to discourage you, trust me, I would love to be playing the Walton Bagatelles, and Concierto de Aranjuez, the Brouwer Sonata, etc., however, I am not at a technical level at which I can play those. Instead I am on some of the Villa-Lobos Etudes, and some works by Tarrega, and Morel's Sonatina. But after becomming proficient in those, it is one step close to being able to play other pieces such at the Walton Bagatelles...do you get what I am trying to say?
Barrueco didn't just pick up a guitar and play La Catedral by Barrios...he worked, sweated, and bled until he was able to play that.
So how do you know what level you are at?
My guitar professor emphasizes that if it takes you a long time to learn a piece, it is past your level. Imagine someone trying to learn the Villa-Lobos etudes who hasn't even done something as simple as the Stanley Yates Etudes Mechaniques...It would take them YEARS! Instead, learning a piece should take about a week or two. I mean, in that time you won't have it perfected, but you should be able to know where all the notes are, produce a good tone, not buzz most of the notes, and understand much of the phrasing and meaning of the piece. Those of us who are currently music majors in college know that we only have one week before our next lesson...and if you don't do well in your lessons you get a bad grade...and bad grades are no good. So play pieces that challenge you, but that are at your level. Just because you don't like the way a piece sounds, doesn't mean you shouldn't play it. Learn the techniques from easier pieces, that way when you get to more advanced pieces, you will not only learn them much faster, but you will also play them much better.
My advice to you is get Scott Tennants Pumping Nylon book and companion DVD. You will learn soooo much from it. Then get Frederick Noads 100 Graded Classical Guitar studies and work through them. After that, you will be looking at the pieces you are currently playing and not have the troubles you were originally having. Remember, learning an easier piece only prepares you more for a more challenging piece. And a piece is never perfected, that is why we keep playing guitar and don't quite after learning one piece.

BE PATIENT! Don't kill yourself on these challenging pieces just yet. Get a bigger understanding of classical guitar repertoire, get a teacher, get your feet on the ground. Remember, all the great guitarists at one point struggled with the same things you are sturggling...now they struggle on other things which are much more complicated!

Best of luck, you will get where you want to go only if you give it the time and patience necessary. Remember, we practice more than we perform, so make yourself the best practicer you can be. That doesn't mean to practice 15 hours a day, it only means that in the hours that you put in each day, however much time you have, practice effectively and get the best out of your practice time...in the end it will save you more time. Find a teacher, it will pay off in the end. And also, stay away from tablature, it will not imporve your musical interpretation of the piece, you won't understand rhythm, crescendos, decrescendos, etc. It won't allow you to be creative as to what position on the neck you play. You will be so limited to only play the piece as the recording of it that you hear, and whats the point in playing if you are only going to sound like a carbon copy of someone else.
We have all been there, and it is not fun, but trust me, stay with it, keep your cool, and strive to play the big hard pieces, but stay away from them until you have pretty much mastered the pieces that come before them.

Good luck, this forum is only meant to help; if you listen to all that we are advising you, who knows, you may just be the next best player in our world of classical guitar! It is such a beautiful instrument, and we are so very lucky to have the opportunity to play and master it. But nothing great ever came without much pain or patience. You will get there, just give yourself the time. Play the hard passages slowly, understand them to the point where you see them even when your eyes are closed!

Sincerely,
Doug.

[fernsemer]

knucklebrain1970......Hello!

Originally posted by knucklebrain1970
"6 strings is plenty, you guys are nuts, what do you have 8" fingers or something? Jeesh "

No, I come equipped with your standard three....err, four fingers and a
thumb,... per hand like most people. Although, sometimes I..... I almost
wish....

[knucklebrain1970]

Thaks Doug, I appreciate the advice. El Negrito is a difficult piece. I have it memorized and can play the first part of it with perfection. I hear you on the advanced stuff, but this is not something out of my league, really, just practice is all. It was kicking my ass, till I really slowed it down and analyzed my fingerings and mastered that 1/2 F chord thingy. However, I wish there was a set practice routine. Say 5 pieces of paper that had this on it.
Rest Stroke, Right hand. 5 minutes
String walking 5 minutes
Scales (what scales) 5 minutes

etc.

My problem is that I have too many books. I go from one to the other and nothing ever gets accomplished. I need strict discipline. Once I know what to do to get where I want to be which is upper intermediate / expert; I don't have the time to dedicate to become what I call a master, like Segovia and such, plus I'm a bit late at 34 starting again. However, I can get there no problem because I will develop a strict regemine of practice based on a preset practice routine that I do every day. That's my problem. I do have the Scott T book. What's the advantage of having the DVD? Can you actaully see and hear him playing the exercizes in the book?

Kevin

[dap22]

Hey Kevin,
While the book has more information, the nice thing about having the Pumping Nylon DVD companion to the book is that you actually get to see someone doing the excercises. Before I began my music studies at the university, I would watch the video and do my excercises in sync with Scott Tennant. It definitely makes doing technique practice more tolerable. I am not one who finds technique practice 'fun', however, it is absolutely essential to success, and thats why I put up with them every day, just being able to see someone with such good chops as Scott Tennant doing these excercises has helped give me more of a push. Here, at the university, we have technique practices, monday-friday, from 7:00-8:30. It's really nice because you have much more fun practicing technique excercises with friends. If you know of other people who live near you who play classical guitar, you should try and set up a time to get together to do technique practices, that way you can watch eachother to make sure that you are doing everything well.
The other reccomendation I have, is don't designate your practice requirements to a certain amount of time...just pick a few excercises and do them all the way through, regardless of time. If you are only going to spend 5 minutes on rest strokes, but the excercise actually takes 10 minutes...then you are missing half of the excercise. At the same time, if the exercise is only 2 minutes...then you have 3 minutes of tiem with nothing to do. Do you know what I mean by this? I mean, you don't need to practice rest strokes for 10 hours of the day...time doesn't matter, just do it until the excercise is done, whether it takes 2 minutes, or whether it takes 2 hours.
I also don't like repeating the same exercises every day. For example, one day I will do slurs, the next will be scales, then the following slurs, and after that then scales again, etc. Don't overwhelm yourself with the amount of time you spend on your technique, I usually spend anywhere from 40 minutes to an hour on technique each day, but its always different, I just spend the amount of time it takes to get the designated exercises done.

Don't kill yourself with 'strict' practices. Make your practices fun and enjoyable...sure, be strict in yoru practice schedule and disciplined in your studies, but make sure, most importantly, that you are enjoying what you are doing, if not it will only wear you out!
It's not too late to start. I would have liked to have started when I was 6 instead of 16....but there's nothing that can be done about that. That time is lost, so just figure out all you want to do in the time remaining. There is plently of time to become a excellent player!

You are obviously on the right track, just don't overwhelm yourself, its ok to take a break when needed, if not you will go crazy!!! I do highly recommend the Scott Tennant companion DVD, its a way of seeing that technique practice can be fun and doesn't take all that long. Scott Tennants warm up routine is awesome, and ST has amazing chops!

As far as too many books, while I sometimes wish that were the case with me, just work on one piece at a time. Obviously the more books you have the longer it will take to get through them, but you don't need to play every piece in every book...

You are already doing very well in figuring out what you need to do to become a better player, keep up the great work!

Doug.