Ok, Time for the TAB vs. NOTATION Discussion

[knucklebrain1970]

Ok folks, I'll get this forum woken up, It's time for a tab vs. notation war, ahem, cough, cough, discussion. I see not war needed for this. I do however feel guilty when reading tabulature. There is a tune El Negrito that I'm learning, but I've not found it in any book, just tab on a website. My main problem is feeling guilty for using tab caus it's easier. It however does not help me progress with my music reading. Should I just stay away from tab altogether? Should I feel guilty?

Kevin

[daniel711]

Wow, you're really into some heavy CG soul searching this morning... The problem with tab is that it's only good if you already know the music in your head before you try to play it. Even then it's lacking. If you don't know the tune, tab will never give you the timing to get it right (it's also missing a s**t load of other useful information). And there is some music that you could never learn with tab - a Bach Fugue for instance...there's just no way!!! Don't feel guilty though. Examine your horizens. What do you want to achieve on the guitar? If you're satisfied to learn just a few well known pieces that you like, then who cares. But if you want to become a good musician, toss the tab and learn the notes..

[keith]

point #1 why either/or and not both? many books have tab in the bass clef area and standard notation in the treble clef area. you get the fingering plus time.

point #2 if you have a good feel for the time but do not have the notes, tab can be great if that is your only source.

point #3 one can have an understanding of standard notation--it is playing at speed trying to figure out those dots and the corresponding note that can be difficult.

point #4 tab gives you what you need--the notes only is skips the middle man (those damn little dots). a good tab can also give you the time.

for my money, give me tab (not the soft drink). when i am given a sheet music, i convert it to tab anyways.

[brian richardson]

there is a book by jerry willard called, ' easy classical guitar gig book'
it has standard notation and then tab underneath each measure. so when in doubt, just look under where you are and the tab is there.
50 pcs. some harder than others. plus there are pcs. w/e dropped to d and g to f#. with the tab it helps to clear up these changes.

all in all, lotza nice pcs. and is designed to bridge the gap for steel stringers, electric players to play classical, as well as pcs's that classical players will find new. but anyway.................

[JerryO]

I tend to agree with Keith. Both are valuable and I use both for all of Keith's reasons. I mostly use notation for time, melody, dynamics, etc. and I use tab (when available with the notation) to help me work out the fingering. My choice -- notation first, tab second

[Jubilee Valence]

there is a book by jerry willard called, ' easy classical guitar gig book'
it has standard notation...

all in all, lotza nice pcs. and is designed to bridge the gap for steel stringers, electric players to play classical, as well as pcs's that classical players will find new. but anyway................. :idea: Hmmmm..I wonder if I could wade thru... :twisted: I'll begin search... :wink:

[brian richardson]

jubi,

there are two books by willard:
1. easy classical guitar gig book
2. fifty easy classical guitar solos w/cd i believe.

i have the first book.
the second might also b helpful. a bit easier w/ help of cd.

just be careful on your s&d, want you back in one piece with the book you want. :twisted:

[deAlmeida]

I don't read music... BUT... I can't even grasp the idea of learning a song that I had never heard before... learning even the smallest amount of material is very time-consuming, and I am picky about what I want to learn. also, the process of learning a song, listening to a recording of it while I am learning it, and just in general being familiar with how the piece sounds has always been how I've learned material

[Libre]

Give me the notation every time. Notation has the advantage that it actually LOOKS like what it sounds like. And, it conveys so much more, as a previous poster noted. Complex rhythms and multi-line textures defy tabulature (which, by the way, has been in existance as long as or LONGER than standard notation).
By the way, interesting that Jerry Willard is mentioned - I've known him for 30 years and studied with him for some of that. He's the best sight reader of NOTATION I ever saw, on the guitar.

[keith]

although tab cannot express time as well as notation, i am very puzzled how it is any less adequate in expressing the notes? when you really think about it, tab is nothing but the notes put on lines whereas notation are dots that need to be converted into notes--essentially tab skips the middle man here.

for example, if the notes of a given chord are e e and e , notation would show one dots way below the 5 lines, one dot at the first line and one dot in the top space. tab would show this as open 6th string, 2nd fret 4th string and open 1st string. if you are using notation you are going to convert those notes into what tab already would show.

for both systems you could alter which string/fret makes the desired note, but the end result is that the 3 notes are going to be played.

as for time, a good tab can express time reasonably well. the best solution, in my opinion, is the combo of notation and tab.

[Sandra]

I mostly use notation for time, melody, dynamics, etc. and I use tab (when available with the notation) to help me work out the fingering. My choice -- notation first, tab second
Same here. Tab can actually be useful if you're having a hard time figuring out where to play the note and the regular notation doesn't always spell it out. Then again, sometimes I may finger something differently. Music that was written specifically for the guitar may have a natural "lay" on the fretboard, but in general I consider the fingering to be merely a "suggestion" that is not cast in stone.

But, as someone who learned to read music long before being introduced to tab, I find it a bit annoying sometimes for taking up so much space on the page and creating more page turns. I've actually been known to photocopy a piece, slice it up to remove the tab, tape the notation down and make a new copy just so I didn't have to deal with it.

[brian richardson]

libra,
i also studied with jerry (4yrs). did you check out his new cd?

as far as tab vs. notation goes, most music is in notation and when playing with other players and they hand you the sheet music, and you can't read it, well your screwed. i still think reading notation is the best way to go, that being said, origional lute/early guitar was written in tab so...............
i prefer notation for it's 'universal' usefullness. but i find that if more people play as a result of tab, i'm all for it. whatever floats your boat folks, as long as it doesn't sink your ship.

jubi any luck? :twisted:

[knucklebrain1970]

Thanks for the responses fellas. What I don't understand is why tab isn't written with the same stuff that notation is. Bear with me on this, I don't know the theoretical names for notation yet as I'm still learning, but say you have a triplet in tab, it will be written as

-0-0-0 -



In notation it will be written as


____
-d-d-d-


with the line on the top to indicate that it's a triplet. In tab, this is lost. You have no idea if it's a triplet or whatever. What I'm getting at is why don't they make tab with all the same symbols as with notation, but instead of notes, you got numbers. What would be the difference?


I will learn primarily from notation though, as I believe that is the key to mastery of the instrument and a more proud feeling of intellegence and intellect is involved from mastery of reading music. When I speak of mastery, I'm speaking in terms of my own mind. When I'm at the point where I don't have to look at a note for 5 minutes to figure out where or what it is, especially with position playing, which is really kicking my ass at the moment. When I can look at a piece of music and figure out the notes and timing without staring at a single bar for 15 minutes, I'll consider that mastery from my standpoint, the rest is just working out the kinks and making it sound performance worthy.

My primary goal is to build up a repitoure (sp?) however my secondary goal is to learn to read AGAIN and this time for good, not letting the knowledge slip away as I've done several times already. The key for me is keeping myself exposed to the music for inspiritational purposes. When you think you've mastered something and are getting bored. Go watch people play or watch videos and realize how much you still suck. That's motivation enough for me. Thanks guys and ladies.

Kevin

[brian richardson]

good for you kev.
crawl :arrow: walk :arrow: run
rather than watching people who are better than you and putting yourself down, turn it around and make a small recording of yourself, forget about it, try hard, and in a few months, record the same thing again, listen to them both and realise how much you've improved. half full/half empty thingy.

[Jubilee Valence]

good for you kev.
crawl :arrow: walk :arrow: run
....half full/half empty thingy. :twisted: thats not like the springy-thi...never mind :lol: Yes -Gryphon has both books but w/out cd--saw cd in search but was 4 another book(accompaniment) :wink:

[brian richardson]

:twisted: found them at amazon.
run/walk/crawl-half full/empty also a typical bender. should i say blender?
blender?- didn't even know er! sorry

[Jubilee Valence]

:twisted: found them at amazon.
run/walk/crawl-half full/empty also a typical bender. should i say blender?
blender?- didn't even know er! sorry :twisted: gryph was cheapest but no disk;therefore i will springy-thingy there with most haste(but no chaste) 8)-please tell us -NO full moon tomorrow..brian- when do ya hit Deutschland-alps? -Yo da little lady-who??

[brian richardson]

:twisted: in orbit- full moon 24/7. pants up.
deutschland-alps? yup. probably march/sept.
info not in my hands. waiting on a friend. if it works out-7th heaven 8)

[Travis_Warner]

Once you learn musical notation, I won't say everything becomes easier, but music, in my experiences, will be less frustrating. You will not have to hear the song before in order to play. But, tab still has it's use. When there is a complex fingering that I couldn't figure out, I used to go to tab. Now that somebody on this forum printed that roadmap of the frets, I no longer really use it for classical guitar. I still use tab all the time for country and rock music. So don't feel bad that you read tab, but I would suggest you learn notation if you have the means. It won't come overnight, and believe me, even after ten years of reading notation, sometimes you look at sheet music and just draw a complete blank (I hope this happens to other people and not just me :roll: ), but it all works out in the end.

[deAlmeida]

What I don't understand is why tab isn't written with the same stuff that notation is. Bear with me on this, I don't know the theoretical names for notation yet as I'm still learning, but say you have a triplet in tab, it will be written as

-0-0-0 -



In notation it will be written as


____
-d-d-d-


with the line on the top to indicate that it's a triplet. In tab, this is lost. You have no idea if it's a triplet or whatever. What I'm getting at is why don't they make tab with all the same symbols as with notation, but instead of notes, you got numbers. What would be the difference?


Dear Kevin,
they do make this sort of tablature. In fact, I believe it is the norm. Only 2 of my books don't have that information in the tab, but in both instances, it has the notation right above. In my experience, tablature music that you purchase will have those designations.. as a few people already mentioned, GOOD tab has these elements so you know the timing, etc.. tab that you download off the internet is another story

[Ted]

I started out with standard notation using Shearer's "Guitar Note Speller", and am glad I did. In Frederick Noad's book "Solo Guitar Playing, vol 1", he makes this comment for the study notes to a piece " The right fingering in the first measure continues until otherwise indicated. In the same way the left hand fingering is demonstrated only at the beginning and where it is unusual. This makes you read notes rather than fingers, which speeds up your recognition and memorization of new notes."

This way ones knows the time duration of a given note. I do agree that it's good to have some idea of what the piece sounds like. Just because one can read standard notation does not mean he knows the tempo of a given piece.
This is where the book "Fifty Easy Classical Solos" by Jerry Willard has come in handy. It comes with: standard notation, tempo, tab, and CD.
Now I have a question: Where can one find the tempo for a piece? I as yet haven't obtained any sheet music other than what is in the method books.
Does the actual sheet music show the tempo (e.g. d= 120).
Happy New Year guys!
Ted

[MatthewB]

Now I have a question: Where can one find the tempo for a piece? I as yet haven't obtained any sheet music other than what is in the method books.
Does the actual sheet music show the tempo (e.g. d= 120).

Hi Ted:

Usually (there are exceptions), if you get individual pieces of sheet music they won't have metronome marks. They will usually have performance marks indicating tempo: adagio, moderato, allegretto, etc. I think these indicate how the piece should sound to the audience (is it relaxed, moderate, or easily fast?). It's up to the performer's judgment to interpret them. Or a teacher will tell you. Or it might be a particular kind of dance (minuet or waltz), so that helps.

Some collections, such as Noad's collections (Renaissance Guitar, Baroque G., Classical G., Romantic G.) or the Canadian Conservatory series do give tempo indications in terms of metronome marks.

Hope this helps,
Matthew

[MegaBrawn]

Sorry for entering the discussion so late, but honestly, I never saw the point of tabs. For fingering, provided the guitarist has been given proper training, the guitarist should be able to come up with the appropriate fingering even if it's not provided.

If I'm not mistaken, tabs has indeed been around longer than notation historically. But to me it's too big a crutch. I feel that classical guitarists should give up this crutch and as a teacher, I don't see any time in a student's development in which this tool would be beneficial. I've seen far too many beginners rely solely on tabs after they've been introduced to it to the point that their sight reading suffers. And more advanced players shouldn't have to rely on tabs IMO either.

Guitarists in general (that includes classical guitarists unfortunately) seem to have this rep. of not being musicians. At least that's the impression I get. Making music isn't just about theory, but I feel the ability to coordinate with other musicians is lost if one avoids notation incessently.

I totally agree with Libre, notation looks like what it sounds like. The ability to sight read well gives guitarists more versatility.

I feel tab is best served on the internet, where not many have access to notation software, and tab is a cheap and easily recognised way to putting down music. Sure, tabs, like notation is just a means to an end; writing down music. But my philosophy is for classical guitarist to be more versatile, so tabs isn't really a tool I use at all.

[Ted]

Hi, MatthewB! Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the info. I'm glad that you mentioned that pieces will have performance marks indicating the tempo, and that it's up to the the performer to interpret them.

How slow is lento? If it's too slow, it would be "Muy lento". Just kidding! Really, though. Other than listening to how something should sound-how does one know?
E.g. I've seen the tempo for Greensleeves as slow as d (1/4) =90 and as fast as 120.

[MatthewB]

How slow is lento? If it's too slow, it would be "Muy lento". Just kidding! Really, though. Other than listening to how something should sound-how does one know?
E.g. I've seen the tempo for Greensleeves as slow as d (1/4) =90 and as fast as 120.

That's the fun part! On one side there's Horowitz asked why he played something so fast and answering (supposedly) "because I can". And then there are the constant debates among conductors about tempos for particular movements in Beethoven or Mahler, say.

And then there's the instrument joke about guitarists:

Q: How do you get a guitarist to play largo?

A: Put the score in front of him.

Cheers,
Matthew

(The views expressed in the joke quoted above are not necessarily the views of this poster!)

[Libre]

To those of you that aver that TAB is EQUAL to NOTATION, it's just DIFFERENT, well, I disagree.

For example, Keith said:
<<although tab cannot express time as well as notation, i am very puzzled how it is any less adequate in expressing the notes? when you really think about it, tab is nothing but the notes put on lines whereas notation are dots that need to be converted into notes--essentially tab skips the middle man here.>>

Tab relates to notes like binary numbers (0 and 1) relate to language. While it's POSSIBLE to convert anything written into binary, and back again, much of the ART (let's call it) of the language would be lost.

How would you identify a key, a mode, a harmonic or melodic motif, or any of the other incredible complexities of printed music? Notation shows how the voicing is related by use of stems and beams. And it shows, really, the composer's intention much better than tab. Can you look at a string of numbers and see a G Minor chord? If so, you spent more time learning tab than it would have taken you to learn notation.

Let's look at the printed word, for comparison. Suppose someone wanted to come up with an easier and faster to learn system, than letters and words. A series of dots would do the trick.
. = A
.. = B
... = C
etc.

My name would thus be written: ............. . .................. ...

Is it POSSIBLE to read it? SURE! My name is Marc (good thing it's not Zacherias or Ezikiel!).

With this system, sure you would save time initially, because you wouldn't have to memorize all those funny squiggly little symbols we call letters. You could maybe write a short note or even a paragraph, but try to actually write a book with those dots. As we get more and more fluent with text, we cease to see letters and words and almost begin to see thoughts - direct from the writer's mind to the reader's. Notation is the same for really good readers - not that I'm there.

The printed word requires application and practice to learn to read, and is well worth the effort. Printed music is much the same, the way I see it. I only wish I could read music as fluently as text.

[daniel711]

Libre
Very elegant, and clever, comparison! Our boring jobs give us much time to THINK :wink:

[Libre]

Yes Daniel. I guess that's why I (we?) have a boring job. I spent a lot of my time in school thinking, rather than learning what they had to teach. So after all that schooling, I'd thought oceans of thoughts, and learned very little - at least about things that get you jobs.
Seems kind of ironic, but there it is.

And thanks for the compliment about my post.

Are you the EPA scientist by the way, or is that someone else?

[daniel711]

Yep, that's me... "Education" is not always the same as vocational training, and vice-versa :wink:

[Libre]

<<Education" is not always the same as vocational training>>

It might even be antonymous.

[DJSouza]

I never really liked using TAB. Not that I am a snob. It's just that I have never found TAB that is accurate. Also TAB written by others locks you into their interpretaion of how a piece is to be played. I not saying that well fingered notation doesn't do the same; however, I feel more comfortable in being able to follow the mechanics of notated and fingered parts. I can see how the mechanics develop and the tonal considerations that are also taken into account in terms of string choice. Like some have responded, there is just more information available in notation (besides rhythm) that not only allows one to explore the designated course "por la letra", but also gives way to the examination of variation. I think this is more easily examined in notation, than in TAB. For me, TAB has been a reactionary form of musical translation. It does not readily allow for dynamic interpretation at a glance, nor does it take into account tonality. As you can tell, I much prefer notation, especially because the classical guitar is an instrument that requires a multi-disciplinarian approach. I don't think TAB meets the need of the musician from a performance view, nor do I think it respects the nuances of the classical instrument.

Now for Rock 'n' Roll --Bring it on. It's a useful tool!

Notation wins!

Dave

[a333a]

Is this discussion still going on?

IMHO I believe that if you are studying classical guitar you have to do it in notation, in any school you have to learn some theory that includes solfeo (the reading of notes) and harmony (the correct use of 'chords') and the tabs are obsolete for that porpose because they are just fingers, not notes, besides a piano player (or other instument) that wants to play your piece to hear it may not be able with tab notation, don't you think?

But if you learn for hobby learn however you want, from ear, tabs, standar notation, whatever makes you happy.


8)

[dap22]

Hey guys,
its surprising that this discussion has gone on so long, I guess it doesn't help on my part by adding another post! Both DJ and a333a bring up great points. In my opinion, notation is far better than tablature. What it comes down to, is that with notation, you can play a piece as it was meant to sound in proper time with proper crescendo's, decrescendos, staccatto, grace notes, etc. With the tabs you find online that can't be done. Its pretty much impossible to play an online tab and have it sound 'good' without having already heard the song. And if you have heard the song and learned it from tab, you are pretty much playing a carbon copy of what you hear, so if you are playing and sounding exactly the same as the recording you have heard....whats the point in being a classical guitarist....what makes you different and better than the recording? Well, with tablature, nothing, but with notation, it opens up room for interpretation.
Plus, all music theory courses are taught in notation...not tablature. There is a 'musical' feelign about notation, not tablature. All tablature tells you is what notes to play.
With notation, you can refinger notes, play the same notes in different positions on the neck to whatever ism ore comforatble (ex, Open 5th string A as opposed to fretted fifth note 6th string A.) Notation allows you to be musical and be yourself.
We are musicians and classical guitarists. The least we can do is put a little bit of effort in to learning and interpreting the piece!
Plus, when i look at tablature, it feels like i am cheating!
Stick with notation, it allows for you to not only be a better player and locate notes on the fretboard and sightread, but it also allows you to be musical, the most important of all!

Doug.

[MatthewB]

But if you learn for hobby learn however you want, from ear, tabs, standar notation, whatever makes you happy.

Good point to bring up the third possibility. I can read music (not well enough), can barely follow tab (and don't care), but what I really wish I'd learned to do when I was beginning is to play by ear. One of the music instructors at the local University (not a guitarist, I admit) told me that, in her opinion, children beginning should be taught to play be ear first and only taught to read music when they are reasonably competent. Why? Because you want to be able to do both, and once people can read well (again, in her opinion), it's much harder for them to learn to play well by ear.

Cheers,
Matthew

[a333a]

[quote]Because you want to be able to do both, and once people can read well (again, in her opinion), it's much harder for them to learn to play well by ear.
Matthew

I'm like that, but not even playing but melodic and harmonic dictations are extremely difficult for me and the intonation with my voice too.

But I tune my guitar almost perfect :twisted: (just kidding, not that perfect)

[Jubilee Valence]

well, now we hear from the un-educated rank(s),-Kev's question is easy- no to guilt & yes, apparently, it can help, but from the "ear only" guy, there comes the point when the complicated sections of established works from our masters can only be learned by example: ie interpretation of information contained in sheet medium, or to be "shown"the particular section(s).True guilt comes from true--"crime..": "ripping off" or copying from an unwilling example as opposed to watching an experienced player/teacher who will graciously show others who have "sticking points" or whatever...Thankfully, there are now many honorable,brilliant "stars" available who "enjoy" sharing their skills & the fruits of their "labors". Examine your motives-delusions of grandeur?,sheer love of music?..other?..& pursue your quest!...hmmm..almost time for my electro-shock therapy...Hasta! ZZZAAPP :twisted: :roll:

[Sharstrom]

I suppose whatever works...however, I agree that tab is useful mainly when one already is intimately involved with the piece--as far as being familiar with how it should sound. Consider also, at least as has been my experience, that reading and using notation becomes easier and easier with use. If I move away from classical for some time, like a year, I am playing other styles then find it takes some time to get back into reading notation. However, it comes back before too long. There is much more music available in notation than in tab, unless I'm hopelessly behind in info'. I go thru a new piece [new to me] slowly at first, determining what fingerings I want, which fret, etc., and pencil the more difficult ones in above the notation. After i've played the piece a while, of course, I often discover a much simpler way to do it and erase the fingering and write in the new ones. On the other hand, I know people who loathe notation and avoid it and are, sadly, much better players than me. To balance my little opinion here, I admit I prefer tab for other types of music, such as Tommy Emmanuel or some bluegrass run that is too fast for my ears to decipher.