Is the "a" finger bound to be a problem child?

[MatthewB]

For a while I've been dissatisfied with my progress on Villa-Lobos' Etude no. 1, and recently I think I've isolated the chronic weakness of my 'a' finger as the heart of the problem. So I'm working to strengthen it using a-m alternations, single finger scales, arpeggios that work it hard, and so on. Progress is slow. Take, say, a p-a-m-a or p-m-a-m arpeggio. Getting my speed above mm 100 (clicking every p-stroke, of course) is tough.

Now I'm looking at the Canadian conservatory technique book. It seems to imply that you should treat m-a alternation as equivalent to i-m alternation. So, for example, at the highest grade (grade 10), the scale speed requirement is mm 116 (16th notes) using all of i-m, i-a, and m-a alternations. Now for me, getting a-m alternation that fast and secure would be very hard work. And I'm wondering whether you all (particularly those of you who teach) think that the practice required to get that degree of facility with the 'a' finger would really be repaid in practice. I mean, granted I started out by complaining that my own a finger is not up to playing a basic repertoire piece, but still I think I could get the Etude no. 1 arpeggio up to speed without being able to play continuous m-a alternations quite that fast.

What do you think?

Matthew

[M. Stephenson]

My instructor often prefers i-a over i-m for playing scales because he says he gets a more even sound (I can not tell much of a difference). He is every bit as fast with i-a as with i-m. He never really emphasizes m-a.

I think that anyway you attack the problem will yield results. Sometimes results take many months - as I am all to aware with my own practice.

I play all the combinations, but there is a great deal of difference in the speed. For example I may be able to do 16th's with i-a, triplets with i-m and 8th's with m-a.

I am in the midst of totally upgrading my right hand technique from classical to flamenco and I often spend 20 minutes on a specific aspect or fingering - this has been going on for about 6 months and I am just beginning to get confortable with the new techniques. I know that I have another 6 months before I am back to my old speed and before the movements become automatic.

Pick some short excersises and stick with them for the long haul. It takes time for the muscles, nerves and synapses to develop.

[guitarplayer12217]

well arpeggio for villa-lobos's etude no. 1 is quite simple in some aspect. You could try a different fingering for the arpeggio. Instead of p-i-p-i-p-m-i-a-m-a-i-m-p-i-p-i your could play it with the fingerings p-i-p-i-p-i-p-m-i-m-p-i-p-i-p-i or whatever feels natural to yourself.

[MatthewB]

M. Stephenson dit

I am in the midst of totally upgrading my right hand technique from classical to flamenco and I often spend 20 minutes on a specific aspect or fingering - this has been going on for about 6 months and I am just beginning to get confortable with the new techniques. I know that I have another 6 months before I am back to my old speed and before the movements become automatic.

Pick some short excersises and stick with them for the long haul. It takes time for the muscles, nerves and synapses to develop.


You're absolutely right, of course. I've been going at the problem a few weeks, and it is just going to take longer than that. Thanks for the perspective.

Cheers,
Matthew[/quote]

[dap22]

Hey,
I recommend, for your own benefit, to avoid as much as possible M and A alternation. Once again, AVOID IT AT ALL COSTS! The combination of M and A is the weakest finger combination for classical guitarists (if we used our pinky, then I suppose the weakes and slowest finger combination would be the pinky and A finger, but we hardly ever use the pinky; this being the case, A and M are the weakest!)
A bit more than a week ago it seems now, I made a somewhat long post about the villa-lobos etude 1, in it I mentioned two fingerings, in order to save space and not spend time writing them again, they are the same ones that guitarplayer12217 has posted. The first fingering which uses the A and M alternation on the high E and B strings are the villa-lobos fingerings for the piece as published. The fingering using only P, I and M are a fingering that I believe Ben Verdery uses, as was taught to me by Stephen Aron. The P, I, M fingering, with no A, is much faster, stronger, more controlled, and more efficient.
As far as practicing, there are many ways which I reccomend, and will post up some tips. Practice it slowly. Duh! Of course everyone knows this sure...but heres a tip from Stephen Robinson that will teach you about practicing slowly with the tempo in order to gain speed. Although this is not the tempo, it will merely be an example of Dr. Robinsons point. Imagine the tempo of a piece you want to play is 200. Learn it and develop it (at least the difficult passages) at, well, lets just say, 80 bpm. Once you have that down and are confident...don't jump up to 200...that is BAD!!! Slowly notch it up. Go up to 90, then to 100, then 110, and so forth, until eventually you are up to concert tempo. Of course you do not need to do this with the whole piece, but certainly in your practices, do fragments, so that you are able to understand, play, and recognize the piece at different tempos. With the Villa-Lobos, I would spend about 10 minutes practicing just the right hand arpeggio sequence, and then notch it up, then 10 more minutes, then notch the tempo up even more, and so forth. This will make you a confident and strong player.
Next, in your practice, don't only practice it at the exact beats. Since it is all sixteenth notes the entire piece, don't only practice the arpeggio in sixteenth notes. Instead...do dotted sixteenth notes...so you will have a dotted sixteenth followd by a thirty-second, and so forth. This will help you with your string changes and shifts. Then flip it around, then try it in triplets, and so forth.
Next, emphasize certain beats. first emphasize all the I, then the M, and then only the P, and then mix it up and do every other I, and every other M, etc. This is something I was told the Assad brothers recommended in a masterclass. If they reccomend it...you should do it!

I would like to make one final point about finger alternatiosn to avoid confusion. I said avoid A and M at all costs. What I mean by this, is avoid them in pieces. You wouldn't want to be playing a Bach courrante or gigue using lots of A and M alternations! however, in your daily technique practice, be sure to work on scales and arpeggios with a large focus on doing A and M alternations, this will help improve your hand steadiness, strength, control, and make your I and M alternations seem blistering fast! I don't like the idea at all of doing I and A scales...as the fingers are relatively appart. Note that I said scale and not arpeggio...the Bach Chacconne uses a great I and A arpeggio sequence. Do scales with I and M, they are your two strongest fingers. Regadless, do practice I and A as well as M and A scales for strength and control, however, in a complete piece...doing scales with M and A, and I and A, is not your best bet. why use your weakest fingers when you could use your strongest? Also, I and A are relatively strong and fast together, but making a good tone in a fast alternation of I and A is harder, sure your hand feels even with I and A, but M and I are your best bet!

good luck, the VL etude 1 is a GREAT piece!

Doug.

[MatthewB]

Doug: That's a great post, with several weeks or months of practice tucked into it.

And guitarplayer12217 thank you, too, for suggesting the alternate fingering.

I guess I'd avoided the p, i, m only fingering in part because I thought "well, this is a study, after all" and also because the teacher I was working on this piece with uses the fingering with "a". But it is also a great piece and the rule to play to your strengths and practice for your weaknesses applies.

I'm interested in the subject of working up a piece or a technique using a metronome, because I've been told and read several different methods for doing so. May be I'll ask about that in another thread sometime.

Cheers,
Matthew

[M. Stephenson]

I am not familiar with the tune being discussed, but I can say that if you ever get around to learning "Leyenda" (Also known as "Asturias"), you will do the following "arpeggios":

p-m-i (m & i on the same string)
p-i-a (i & a on consectutive strings)
p-i-m (i & m have an unplayed string ot two between them)

All three have to be done at the same tempo and executed with no hesitation in switching between the different fingerings.

The good thing is that there is no need for a p-m-a ;-)

[dap22]

Hey M. Stephenson,
you definitely should listen to music by Villa-Lobos. Its probably the most famous music written for guitar in our repertoire, if not, right up there. Sure, people are familiary with Asturias from the into of Spanish Caravan from the Doors, but all classical music fans are well aware of Villa-Lobos, as he composed for a bunch of instruments. It seems like Bach and Villa-Lobos never had a bad day composing!
You should listen to the 5 preludes, and the 12 etudes by villa-lobos, and also learn them. They are fundamental in classical guitar repertoire. The 12 etudes are very difficult, as well as some passages in the preludes, but they will make you a better player technically, and a better musician.
Manuel Barrueco has recorded the 5 preludes as well as the 12 etudes. his recordings are great.
Fabio Zanon has a CD with all the solo guitar works by Villa-Lobos. His recording is incredible, and probably the best available.
When you hear etude 1...you will note that the arpeggios compared to those in asturias are totally different. Etude 1 is a repeated arpeggio pattern using all six strings in a sequence. It should sound like a wash of notes really fast, yet extremely expressive and beautiful.
You could probably find a bunch of recordings of this on the internet as well.
good luck!

Doug