Screw rest strokes

[Antigone]

I know you guys are gonna hate me for this
and i dont mean i hate rest strokes i mean i can play them well
and i do practice them .But free strokes is the way to go with scales shredding .Thats what i have been playing much more than rest strokes.
I also here the assad bro dont use rest strokes at all.

[daniel711]

I kind of agree... A WELL developed free stroke is a rare and powerful technique. J. Williams gets his big sound mostly from free stroke, not rest stroke. Alot of players haven't learned this, and rely too much on the rest stroke to get a big round sound. But the rest stroke slows down the RH if used too much. Free stroke adds speed and fluidity (that's why they call it 'FREE')! Anyway, the rest stroke is a great tool for emphasising specific notes - but it's over used, IMHO. I practice scales with both rest and free... but I can play them faster, easier with free stroke :o

[BigMac5]

I know you guys are gonna hate me for this
and i dont mean i hate rest strokes i mean i can play them well
and i do practice them .But free strokes is the way to go with scales shredding .Thats what i have been playing much more than rest strokes.
I also here the assad bro dont use rest strokes at all.

Have you told this to your teacher?

[Zak]

The rest stroke definitely has its place. Don't toss it out just yet. It doesn't have to be fast, first of all. I use rest strokes for slower passages, when I want a fatter tone. The rest stroke sets the string vibrating more perpendicular to the sound board, which makes for more volume and thicker sound.

For faster scales, the free stroke predominates, of course. A teacher once told me that "an eighth note is lighter than a quarter note, a sixteenth note is lighter than an eight," and so fourth. Not just faster. So, free stroke is suited for your blazing runs.

Does that make any sense?

[daniel711]

Makes perfect sense... I never said 'toss it out'. I said that players over use it. A well developed free stroke can yield a big sound, but many (advanced!) players don't produce a big sound with free stroke - and I'm not talking about speed...

[George Richards]

My experience is that if you can get a strong and full sound using free strokes for scales, a lot of the other aspects of your right-hand technique will benefit tremendously (arpeggios, tremelo, and tonal/dynamic balance). So even for those who prefer rest stroke for fast passages, practicing free-stroke scales will pay off.

By the way, I get my greatest scale speed (>160) from the i-m-a-m fingering, not the i-m or i-a ones most commonly used. Other players over the years have told me that's weird, so I only throw that in for your entertainment . . .

[Todd]

You guys are kidding right?
:roll:
TK

[daniel711]

Yep...We're here for your amusment, Todd - Been to any good guitar competitions lately?? :lol:

[M. Stephenson]

It is is easy to belittle what we can not do.

It was hard for me to accept that a problem technique could reveal the shallowness of my playing ability.

For a long time I fought learning the thumb reststroke - I did not really see a use for it. Now I see that it is the key to good playing. Concentrating on thumb-reststroke revealed fundemental flaws in the rest and free strokes of my fingers.

My instructor knew this all along and mentioned it on several occassions, but I could not see his meaning unitl I ventured into a thumb and index finger study by Gerardo Nunez

I realized that I was fooling myself concerning my playing ability. Once I started to understand the value of mastering the different right hand techniques, I realized that I was just a novice and that I have a very long road ahead of me.

Seeing this, I have "digressed" in my playing - it will be many months before I can play well the songs I used to play with ease. However, I understand that I will be on a much higher level when I can play the pieces again. I can see that my path, as rocky as it is, is the correct and most direct path to get me to my playing goals.

[dap22]

Hello,
this all sounds to much a bit like: "well, I can somewhat do the basic technique, but I don't apply my technique to pieces I am working on, and therefore, play what comes easiest, instead of work on what will in the end be the better result, regardless of difficulty."
The 'logic' many of you posted sounds as though it is correct merely by thinking about how it would work, however, it is not correct when you physically apply this to guitar.
Do you want to play the fastest most accurate scales? REST STROKE IS THE ANSWER! why rest stroke? You can pretty much 'free shoot' it without missing it and the I-M alternation comes naturally. Just make sure you plan your string crosses. Free strokes are generally weaker than rest strokes. Obviously, you aren't going to be playing rest stroke arpeggios...
One example:
Tarrega's Capprichio Arabe...all the scales are rest stroke. They sound the best with rest stroke.
The Assads don't use rest stroke? Hahahahaha, I am not going to comment on that. I am just wondering which little bird told you that one? Why don't you personally email Sergio or Odair and ask them before making such a ridiculous statement ;)

You are wrong in thinking that rest strokes produce only a warm sound and are usually thick and loud. Let me say that again. You are wrong in thinking and saying that rest strokes are used to produce only a warm, thick, loud sound. If you are bad at rest strokes, which I assume that those of you who don't use them are, then maybe it is the only sound you can create. You should be able to play rest strokes extremely lightly or control them and play extermely heavily. You should be able to create a very brittle naily tone or very thick warm tone with rest strokes.
It is not the stroke that affects your tone, it is the nail!
Iti s not the stroke that affects your volume, it is your control!

The fastest scales are usually rest stroke. The most controlled scales are usually rest stroke. Don't confuse the uses of rest stroke with free strokes.
So you aren't convinced. Listen to Randall Avers play "La Muerte De Angel." They are rest stroke scales. You will notice how much control of speed, volume, and tone he has. If you can play more controlled, faster, and delibrately with tone, and more musically than he plays, then maybe I will reconsider your opinion. I am only restating what has been told to me in lessons and masterclasses, and what I have heard in many masterclasses.
Its about control, not the stroke. Different strokes for different things. When "shreding" on fast scales, rest stroke is yoru best bet. Remember, just because it is fast doesn't mean it has to be loud. It is your nail position that affects your tone, not your stroke. It is the position on the string that affects your tone, not the stroke you use! If you are good, you should be able to create almost the same tone with different strokes at different speeds.


Doug.

[daniel711]

Hey Dappity-doo
You were the one who couldn't understand strummin'/arpeggios...right?? :wink: And you're still lecturing us illogical 'freestrokers', ...hmmmm.. I'm willing to bet that your free stroke is weak and thin, like very many, otherwise strong, players. You see, that was my whole point! Alot of players depend on rest strokes for their best tone, but those of us who can get a nice, loud, round tone with FREE stroke.......well, need I say more?? So......instead of lecturing, why don't you practice a little humility (before your scales), and then tell us about your experience... How about, "Different strokes for different folks" :idea: Get it?? :lol:

[dap22]

Hey Daniel711,
Name calling is really necessary here...isn't it? Definitely shows maturity.
Now, I was able to understand your first point. I understood that in no way is strumming a arpeggio, and vice versa. They have different names and are totally different things, not even somewhat similar, adn you are a fool for thinking so. If you think that a strum is the same thing as an arpeggio, it shows that you don't know much at all about guitar or music in general, as they are terms applied to many instruments, not only guitar.
As properly defined, a strum is a brush over the strings, either by the fingers or otherr apparatus (such as a pick).
An arpeggio is playing the notes of a chord or sequence consecutively, as a harp would.
It is one thing to 'arpeggiate' a chord, but arpeggiating a chord is not the same as an arpeggio.
I very much pity you for thinking so.
So, I correct you daniel711. You are wrong in thinking that a strum is an arpeggio or that they are similar. Can a strum 'represent' an arpeggio? to a certain degree. I have an Idea...Why don't you STRUM Etudes number 1, 2, and the C section of 11 by Villa-Lobos...after all, you are the one who thinks a strum and arpeggio are the same thing.
Ok, why don't you strum the arpeggios in Jorge Morel Sonatina? Oh, you are unable to do that?
How about strummign the arpeggios in the Mertz Elegie? Can't do it? Why don't you strum the arpeggios in Tarrega's Capprichio arabe? No luck? How about Preludes 1, 2, and 4 by Villa-Lobos? STILL NO LUCK? OH. Thats why you aren't having any luck...because you are STRUMMING. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A STRUM AN ARPEGGIO. We already had this discussion. You were wrong the first time, and you are wrong again this time.

In thinking that free strokes are the only way to go, you are wrong. In thinking that a strum is the same as or even similar to an arpeggio, you are also extremely wrong.

So I now how a question for you. Who is your guitar professor? Because the things he/she is telling you seem to be quite a bit innacurate. Also, how much music theory have you taken? Your definitions seem to be off. Have you taken any fretboard harmony courses or read any books about it? Your thinking is way off. Have you read Pumping Nylon by Scott Tennant? He talks about free stroke and rest stroke quite a bit. It may service you to read this. Oh yeah, I do believe the scale exercises in that book are rest stroke.

Nevermind me-it's not my opinion I am writing about, it is merely the words and advice of todays guitar greats.

Daniel711-I also like how you almost quoted the exact words of John Williams from the Fingerstyle Guitar Issue No. 55. You are confused though in what they are saying, go back to page 21 and reread it. Stanley Yates mentions how Segovia had the thick rest stroke sound and thin free stroke sound. He then says that if your free stroke is very powerful, it is not nevessary to use a rest stroke to get good sound. John Williams Agrees with him and then mentions how Segovia did have a good rest-stroke, but when he did arpeggios (oh, what a familiar word...arpeggios, not strum!) with free stroke, it was very messy. What I have just done is almost copied page 21 of the Fingerstyle magazine. You realize, all that is said by them is that it is not necessary to use rest stroke to get a good sound and that John Williams has a very powerful sounding free stroke. They don't say taht the mostly only uses free stroke though and that one substitues the other in terms of technique. Read this again, you won't make a fool out of yourself in your next post.

I don't know what you have against me, but you need to get yoru facts right, you need to realize when to use a free stroke and when to use a rest stroke and realize that they have different applications. Remember, we are no longer living in the time of Segovia, our technique has changed and been modified, and our strokes should no longer dictate our sound production or volume...at least it doesn't in good players, John Williams is an excellent example of this!

Doug.

[daniel711]

Ok DAP
I'll take you on....it's Friday night, and I'm just relaxing at home. I have nothing against you, I just call it like it is... Let me start by suggesting that all those great players that you've worked with may have helped your technique, but they've succeded in creating one hell of a snob!! You are so wrapped up in your guitar pedagogy that you are unable to just take a few seconds and CONSIDER an alternative view. So, I want you to take a deep breath before reading another word.............. Ok, once more............................, ahhh.. Now, as far as strumming/arpeggos - what do you get if you strum very SLOOOWLY??? That's right! You get individual notes of a chord! What is an arpeggio?? AHA! Yes, a semantic tack, but technically correct... Now, are you relaxed enough to just say, "ok, so that's what he meant!", and no, I don't think I can strum Villa-Lobos Etude #1 (wise guy). Next up - did I ever say that we should dispense with rest strokes?? Come on now, if you can't remember, go back and re-read my posts. That's right, I never said it!! Good, now we're getting somewhere. You see, I don't have a need to use big names, or tell everyone that I played in this or that masterclass, in order to express valid ideas. Perhaps if you could talk about you experience without justifying everything you say by telling us who else said it, or where you read it, your posts wouldn't be so arrogant, and frankly, offensive... I'll repeat my former advice - practice some humility, then practice scales :wink:

[Todd]

Yep...We're here for your amusment, Todd - Been to any good guitar competitions lately?? :lol:

Didnt mean to imply you're here for my amusement.

Just cant see anykind of free stroke, being as loud and
fat as a rest stroke.

I'm not biased, as i dont even use rest stroke.

I'm pretty sure my hybrid right hand style would
disqualify me from any competitive playing.
It would have to be some back woods headcutting session. :wink:

Can you tell how dissappointed i am?

:cry:

[George Richards]

Dap, you really ought to take it easy--you're gonna have a stroke or something! :wink:

It's great to have strong opinions--many very accomplished players are that way. But I've never been to a masterclass in the last 20 years where a player used such categorical language as you do (and I've been to many, many of these). It's hard for me to believe that this rigidity of thought has done anything to help your growth as a player or a musician.

I could line up dozens of virtuoso players who disagree with your statements regarding ths use of free stroke. That doesn't make what you say wrong, but it does suggest that there are other approaches that can work quite well. Maybe you'd be doing yourself a favor by opening up to other perspectives instead of shouting down those with whom you disagree.

[Zak]

Dap, you're gonna give yourself an ulcer.

I completely agree with your interpretations of the uses of rest/free stroke.

I dissagree with your idea that tone is developed from the nail, and not the stroke. I'm not sure where you're coming from...tone comes from both of those. Everything depends on the context and there are no definites. And of course the upper volume limit of a rest stroke tends to be higher than that of a free stroke - or at least for me.

I don't appreciate your tendancy towards know-it-all-ism, or your need to cite illustrious professors. I can do that also, but it's unnecessary.

[dap22]

Hey George and Daniel711,
OK-Yes, I ought to take it more easy. And in your last two posts really have 'softened' me. I apologize for comming off so arrogant and as a snob. In all honesty I am not (or at least try not to be!) and have no desire to be authoritative, snobish, or whatever. I try to help anyone in their process fo learning, as that is exactly what I am doing now, learning, and I do know I have needed a heck of a lot of help! (and still need a ton more!!!)
I am not a great player by any means whatsoever. As of this summer, in a few months, it will have been only my second year studying classical guitar. Sure, I played acoustic guitar before, but it wasn't until a little more than a year and a half. So I am just at the very beggining of this whole learning process we go through in classical guitar. I understand the fact, and do not dispute, that I am probably not nearly as a good a guitar player as many people on this website. But I am not here for a judging competition, I am here to learn, and help from the little I know. Thats why I think these forums can be a really great thing.
The reason I sometimes cite exact sources and examples is so that MY personal statement can somehow be backed up and validified, as I am not at a stage where I could make a statement and people would look at it and if not somehow agree with it, at least respect it. However, when guitar virtuosos and big name players tend to say stuff, it is often listened to. Basically, the same as performing an experiment to back up a hypothesis. In this analogy I would merely be the 'hypothesis' while the sources I cite are the 'experiments' that prove or support the hypothesis...I hope this is not too foolish of an analogy, but unfortunately its the only one I can think of.

Is there more than one way of doing things? Of course. Is there another way out there...not just one....many others, some of which probably haven't yet been discovered.
Yes, I am rigid in thought, however, I am still early on in the developmental state, and this is all too easily changed! Someone says something and I do it and live by it until someone else shows another way!
I am, as we all are, extremely passionate about the guitar. It is easy to become overwhelmed with emotion and just start blurting things out. It seems almost too easy...we all love guitar so much, it just takes a hold of us!
SO I apologize for comming off so snobish, these are just things I feel extremely strongly and passionately about, I hope you feel the same way too. Name-calling is not neccessary.

I know multiple times in this forum people have taken things I said and flipped them around . That bugs me the most. I just hate for it to happen to me, and hate for it to happen to others as well, as it happens all too much. Peopel (no names in particular) trying to be wise, and in the end, only hurting others and makign fools of themselves.
The one thing I did want to go back to was teh whole strum/arpeggio thing. I mean, I see where you are comming from, but it is just twisting words around, and in essence, a strum is not an arpeggio really. I understand where you are commign from with the whole creating an arpeggio from a broken strum. That is like saying a free stroke and rasgueada are the same except for the fact that in a rasgueada you do something of a flick of the strings on the guitar using the back muscles of your hand (while in free stroke you use the front muscles mostly) in order to create a percussive sound...like a powerful backwards free stroke. Yes, I know that example I gave is very exaggerated, but calling a strum an arpeggio is just twisting of words, I will buy into the fact that from a 'broken' strum yuo can create an arpeggiated chord, but for what they are, a strum and arpeggio are two totally different things.

The free stroke and rest stroke argument, I guess that is all personal preference. But I will say that you SHOULD be able to create the same volume and tone from either free stroke or rest stroke. As what affects volume is the pressure you are strokign the string with, and what affects tone is the position of the string and angle of your nail with which you play. I don't think you should substitute one for the other though due to lack of technical proficiency, if you can't do one well, work on it an learn it, when you can do it well, decide which you prefer more. Then your use of free or rest stroke is totally valid and you can back it up. The nicest thing about rest strokes when doing scales, especially crossing strings, is that with a planned fingering pattern, its pretty much impossible to miss, it can basically be all blind and its pretty much surefire. That way you can focus on other things such as speed, tone, and volume. When you do free stroke on scales, its a bit of a gamble. And then you throw in the fact that if you are performing for an audience and you do get nervous...with rest stroke you don't need to worry as much about yoru hand shaking, in free stroke, a shaking hand could totally throw you off on what strings you are playing. But then again its all on personal preference. For example, in Rosita Polka, I prefer free stoke in many of the short scale bursts, but then in Capricio Arabe by Tarrega, I feel the two scales have to be rest stroke.
I guess find what works best for you, I apologize for comming off the way I did. I just felt as though I had been offended, especially after being called 'Dappity-doo' and being humiliated publically.

We all feel very strongly about this. Sorry for loosing my 'cool', it is just somethign I feel very very strongly about.

Doug

[a333a]

Pumping Nylon Scott Tenant

First Book for the Guitar Frederick Noad


All I have to say.

[George Richards]

Doug:

There's a great tradition of playing that relies heavily on the rest stroke--including the Great One (Segovia). A great way to learn all the ins and outs of rest-stroke use in the Spanish tradition is to work through the etude books of Sagreras. The first and second books are pretty easy, but beginning with book 3, you'll find a long series of etudes with fingerings carefully marked and the pieces sound great. The last book is #6, and those pieces are difficult. But if you work your way there gradually via the previous books, the pieces will not seem hard at all by the time you get there. There's a lot of new pedagogical material out there, but sometimes the old methods can be the best.

BTW, the Scott Tennant exercises are excellent, but the Coordination Exercises by Manuel Lopez-Ramos are much more comprehensive and well worth considering.

[Libre]

Hey dap22 and daniel711-

dap- language is flexible to a degree. Outside the relm of hard science, there are few words or expressions that have one single connotation.
There are certain implications of the concept of strumming that border on certain implications of arpeggiating. Nobody ever said they were identical, but they have some overlap, if you can see what I mean. I think you don't like the word strumming because it conjures up images of Roy Rogers or Hee Haw, which wouldn't sit well with your masterclass professors. But give the guy a break. A strum is a broken chord, an arpeggio is a broken chord. That's all daniel was trying to observe, I believe. But strumming Villa Lobos Etude #1. You had me peeing in my pants. And the little bird thing. My sides were (and still are) aching. But lighten up, guy. I think you were slightly furious and not without any reason, daniel you did wave the red flag at him.
Dap, I completely agree about rest strokes. I just wouldn't say it so strongly. THere are times you need to play a free stroke like tremolo or arpeggio (not strumming) but I don't know why anyone would rather play a free stroke scale than a rest stroke scale. If there's a compelling reason (can't think of one) then I want to hear it. String shifts may make it desirable to throw a free stroke in there, but otherwise rest strokes are the way to go, for me at least.

edited-
Dap, just read your last post, and see you have lightened up. Or trying to. We're here for you.

[cdikland]

Seeing how some like to treat CG playing as an exact science, here is the precise dictionary definition of arpeggio

The sounding of the tones of a chord in rapid succession rather than simultaneously.
A chord played or sung in this manner.
A chord whose notes are played in rapid succession rather than simultaneously

Huh... No mention of the technique that is used to produce this rapid succession. This must mean that a strum AND (gasp) yes even a rasgueada falls within the definition....

[Antigone]

I never said i was gonna thorw the rest stroke out i still practice it and use it

[George Richards]

Seeing how some like to treat CG playing as an exact science, here is the precise dictionary definition of arpeggio

The sounding of the tones of a chord in rapid succession rather than simultaneously.
A chord played or sung in this manner.
A chord whose notes are played in rapid succession rather than simultaneously

Huh... No mention of the technique that is used to produce this rapid succession. This must mean that a strum AND (gasp) yes even a rasgueada falls within the definition....

Ah, but take it a step further: a 13th chord uses all seven notes in the diatonic scale, therefore a rapid scale is an arpeggio. That suggests that arpeggios might be played using the rest stroke, so I'm going to start playing Villa Lobos #1 this way . . . :wink:

[dap22]

Howdy folks,
I appreciate teh understanding of some who realized why i became so 'furious', and also those who acknowledge that the red flag was waved at me, as opposed to vice versa.

Libre-I appreciate your post. Its nice to be reminded that there are people here (such as yourself) who truly do care about the guitar and have a logical way of thinking and understanding and don't only make smart-%ss comments.
CDK- I see you have taken a fance to picking on me. How old are you again? You sound very uneducated.
Also, an arpeggio is not required to be fast.
Just keep twisting words around...I am sure your opinion will be respected by many ;) A slow strum (or fast one) can create an arpeggio, but a strum is not an arpeggio. They are two different things. A strum is a method of playing the strings...you don't stum a piano though (unless you are playing a contemporary piece using prepared piano). You go further on with a rasgueada...dude, you really need to quit with this.
Everyone else accepts the fact that an Arpeggio is DIFFERENT than a strum...we also accept that fact that a strum can create an arpeggio...but a STRUM is defined differently than and ARPEGGIO. You can play an arpeggio on a piano...but you don't strum a piano! Silly rabbit!

George-I have an edition of some sagreras etudes, I am not the biggest fan of these, however, I do agree that they serve their purpose of improving technique. As far as technique excercises go, the Carlevaro are excellent. You should definitely check these out.
I am assuming, and very much hoping, that you last post about the Villa-Lobos etude #1 was a joke. If it wasn't a joke...well, I am not going to comment on that. Just listen to the Fabio Zanon or Manuel Barrueco recording and you will understand the purpose of the etude! Etude des arpeges...hey, etude #2 is also etude des arpeges. Etude #11 has a great arpeggio sequence, check it out! Prelude #2 has a great arpeggio sequence as does #4. And the end of Mazurka-choro...ah, there are sooooo many, and they are all soooo good! We are very lucky to be gutiarists indeed.
The problem with going back to Segovias use of the rest stroke, you need to understand that this was many years ago. The tone he got from playing a free stroke was very thin, and he got a huge thick tone from playing rest stroke. We all now know that this is not the case for us, especially when John Williams comments on this in Fingerstyle magazine. There are many ins and outs with rest stroke as are ins and outs with a free stroke. This is why generally if you look at successful guitarists play super fast scales, loud or soft, you will notice that they are using rest strokes, and if they are playing super fast arpeggios, such as those of Etude #1, #2, and #11 by Villa-Lobos, they generally use free stroke. It is because the ins on fast scales favor the rest stroke more than teh free stroke, and the ins on fast arpeggios favor the free stroke rather than the rest stroke. It for this reason you would play Estudio de Concierto #1 by Barrios using free strokes (it is an arpeggio study) and Estudio de Concierto #2 by Barrios using rest strokes (scale study.)


Doug.

[hiracer]

I'm a brand new classical guitarist. Last week I got my first piece/etude that requires a "rest stroke." (From a Stanley Yates book; can't recall the book or song.)

First, the rest stroke is really, really hard when playing a chord and some of the notes are to ring free, but other notes in the chord are to be cut short. I'm having a hard time with that one. Expecially when one note of the chord is sticcato. Grrr. I guess technically that's not a rest stroke, as much as its dampening. But it leads me to my ultimate point.

Second, sometimes there is no other way to make the required sound other than the use of the rest stroke. The string is supposed to go quiet, end of story.

Third, I've watched my teacher play, and he gets just as fat and loud a sound from free strokes as he does from rest strokes--if that's the sound he wants. His sound is independent of stroke used.

So, from a complete ignoramous perspective, I conclude that the purpose of the rest stroke has nothing to do with the "sound;" it's to quiet the string. In other words, rest strokes have more to do with the absence of sound, than the production of sound.

What I'm missing is the point of people arguing about whether to use rest strokes. How else do you quiet the strings, if that is the objective? Or is the argument about the question of whether there ever is a need to quiet the strings???

[Libre]

hello, Hiracer -
let me set you straight on several points. FIrst off, the rest stroke has ZERO to do with quieting the strings, although I guess that does happen. The rest stroke affects the string you are playing, not the string that you are ultimately "resting" on.
A rest stroke is much fatter, thicker, smoother, juicier, better, more sustain, more volume, projection, [fill in any adjective that means superior to] than a free stroke. If your teacher has a gorgeous free stroke, than his rest strokes are even gorgeouser (how's that for an adjective?). That's because the rest stroke sets up the vibration of the string in it's optimal plane, parallel to the sounboard. It is simply because the string has the most room to vibrate fully, without crashing into the soundboard, fretboard, or its string neighboors. That's as opposed to the least optimal plane, the one perpendicular to the soundboard, as a free stoke approaches. Actually, the better the free stroke sounds, the more it approaches the plane of the rest stroke.
Making one single note in a chord ring out by using a rest stroke on that note and free stroks on the other notes, takes mucho trabajo aprendar (I don't speak Spanish, but I like to pretend). It's easiest when the rest stroke note is the highest (and also the most common) or even the lowest (making the bass note prominent) but can even be executed with one of the middle notes, as I said with much work learning how.
Now you may want to ask why anyone would ever play a free stroke. For one thing, some people can play free strokes faster (not me, I don't get it). For another, it is the contrast between the redolant REST stoke and the comparitively weaker free stoke that brings out the melody notes and accents that you want.
Many Sor studies, Carcassi, Giulianni, Coste, all the standard guys concentrate on the technique of making a melody note ring with the rest stroke while supporting notes are less prominent. Try the 20 famous Sor studies first (at least the first 10 or so). By the time you get to study 7 or 8 you will have a good rest stroke. Or you will die trying.
Libre

[BigMac5]

I think, for beginners, it comes down to what stroke did you learn first and used the most at the beginning. My teacher had me practicing rest strokes first. My first week that is all I did. Practice rest strokes on all six opened strings. The second week I was doing two different chromatic scale exercises, two diatonic scales, and a left hand exercise using all rest strokes. After that he gave me songs to learn using all rest strokes except for a few two or three note cords. He had me play those chords with rest stroke with the thumb and free stroke with i and m. That all we did for the first two months. Today I practice five different chromatic scales and two diatonic scales every day using rest strokes. I use a metronome when I practice scales and have been getting a little faster every week. I also practice Giuliani's 120 right-hand studies (some of them) everyday (which help practice free strokes).

Also, every time I play a song i will use rest strokes any where i can. Unless using a rest stroke would mute a string that needs to keep sounding for example. I feel just as comfortable and secure playing both rest and free strokes. But i must say that i feel my hand is more stable and in control when doing rest strokes. Specially when playing my fastest. I guess that is why the majority of accomplish guitarist play scales using rest stroke.:?:

Antigone I don't know how long you have been playing classical guitar. I have only been playing eight months. You said that frees strokes were the way to go for shredding ( I thought that was a term used only by heavy metal players :?:).
I don't think that speed is that important right now. I rather play a pice really slow but correctly than fast and sloppy. Speed will come with time as i get better.

Quoting from Pumping Nylon- Misconceptions about speed.
1. Without speed one in not a good player. The fastest players are not necessarily the best players.
2. Speed is a goal-rather than a tool. Speed is something we use towards a musical end.

Antigone what did you learn first free or rest stroke?

I guess those players on this forum who are advanced can debate about the tone of both strokes. I don't think that applies that much to us beginners. We need to master both free and rest stroke. Advanced players can do what ever they want since they can do both with good tone.

[Libre]

Big -
You made some good points. But...
<<Also, every time I play a song i will use rest strokes any where i can. Unless using a rest stroke would mute a string that needs to keep sounding for example.>>

Some notes call for free strokes, some rest strokes. It depends on what you want to hear - that governs what you are going to play. You really need to get command of both, if you want to be in command of your sound.
Don't think these considerations are unimportant to beginners. How do you think they become advanced? True, don't get overly hung up on the type of stroke, just keep playing. But never stop listening to yourself, beginner, intermediate, or advanced.

[BigMac5]

Big -
You made some good points. But...
<<Also, every time I play a song i will use rest strokes any where i can. Unless using a rest stroke would mute a string that needs to keep sounding for example.>>

Some notes call for free strokes, some rest strokes. It depends on what you want to hear - that governs what you are going to play. You really need to get command of both, if you want to be in command of your sound.
Don't think these considerations are unimportant to beginners. How do you think they become advanced? True, don't get overly hung up on the type of stroke, just keep playing. But never stop listening to yourself, beginner, intermediate, or advanced.

True. I posted this before seeing your post. Good advice. :D

[daniel711]

I have to jump in here again - After reading and re-reading some of these posts, I think I can make my point a little clearer. I shouldn't have implied that a free stroke can provide a bigger, fatter sound, it can't. But overuse of the rest stroke hinders the right hand, especially when playing phrases where the notes are not close together, UNLIKE scales. BigMAc, you say you play rest strokes as much as you can. That is exactly the problem I'm trying to address here. I said in an earlier post that many players don't develop a good free stroke, and their playing suffers for it. According to some of the posts, teachers are teaching rest strokes, and having students practice ONLY rest strokes! What Libre says about getting the optimal sound by using rest strokes is correct. But in the context of playing a musical passage, over use is a problem. Agility, and fluidity in the right hand is sacrificed by playing too many rest strokes. My point is that fewer players ever master, or even develop, a GOOD free stroke. I'd like to know why students are taught to practice scales only using rest stroke?? THAT's the problem IMO

[Libre]

Well, for one thing daniel711, if it is true that teacher's don't teach scales with free strokes (I don't know if it's true, but if it is) it might be because scales are the one place that rest strokes are really preferable, in every way. Better free stroke practice would be arpeggios (not strums - gotta be very careful when I use that word), tremolos, in other words, free stroke sort of techniques.
Throw in a coupla free stroke scales in your practice too, though. Sometimes, in the middle of a passage, you have a quickie scale and don't want to shift the right hand upward to a rest stroke position (beginners, don't even ask) so you want to keep it low and use free stokes for the scale. But that is in special situations. Generally, scales just scale better with rest strokes. I think.

[dap22]

Hey Daniel,
your post made me quite curios. As I seem to get the exact opposite feeling, I do think though we will both agree on these points (I hope!).
I was under the impression that not enough learning guitarists (which I am one of) do rest strokes and only focus on free strokes. The first thing I teach my students is a basic P, I M, A pattern using free strokes. Hand a non-guitarist a guitar and ask them to play a string, I assume they would play a free stroke instead of a rest stroke...of course it probably won't sound very good, but it is an assumption I have that they would play a free stroke instead of a rest stroke. I feel as though a free stroke comes more naturally. THIS DOES NOT MEAN FREE STROKE IS EASIER. By no means do I intend to imply that one is easier than the other, I just think that a free stroke is the first choice. They both requrie a lot of work to control and do well.
I do not think you should only practice one or the other. YOU SHOULD PRACTICE BOTH! Thats all there is to it. As a good guitar player, you should be expected to do both well.
As far as tone goes, what ultimately defines your tone is your nail shape and position of the string you play and what your nail position is when it strokes the string. As far as volume goes, that is with how much pressure you stroke the string. An excercise I practice sometimes is just stroking the strings, first a rest stroke, then a free stroke, in a goal to create as similar a tone that I can with as similar a volume. Naturally, it seems rest strokes are louder...this is true to the untrained hand. You should focus on controling your rest strokes in volume as you should in your free strokes as well. Naturally, maybe rest strokes seem to offer more potential power, however, in the end, a good controlled free stroke should be able to deliver almost as much power as a rest stroke.
In some fragments you will use rest strokes in others you will use free strokes. A fair generality to make is that blazing fast scales are rest strokes. Why? Because of the control and speed a good rest stroke offers. With doing fast scales using rest strokes, you do not need to focus as much, as once you have understood the proper alternation and string crosses, teh fingers naturally seem to fall in place. Also, with rest strokes, speed should be achieved, because in rest stroke, it is a misconception to think your finger stops to rest on the string it touches, rather, you should understand that once it touches that string it bounces right back off immediately. this is a reason flamenco guitarists are known to have such blazing fast scales, the well developed muscles on the back of their hand from rasgueadas enables their fingers litterally to bounce back off the strings. The other generality that is fair to make is that in cross-string arpeggios you generally want to use a free stroke. In Villa-Lobos Etude one, using a free stroke would most likely slow you down, and certainly break the natural over-ringing string flow. Also, a rest stroke would be extremely difficult to use in this case! Same coule be said for the arpeggios at the end of Mazurka-choro, you definitely want to use a free stroke here!
Now, understand, not all arpeggios are done with free stroke, and not all scales are done with rest stroke, but it is a fair generality to make that arpeggios are generally understood to use free stroke and blazing fast scales are generally known to use rest stroke.
In the end though, its not about what stroke you end up using, its about how much control you have over the stroke which you are using. As a guitarist, you should be able to, and expected, to do both very well. Only being able to do one of the strokes would be like a cellist only knowing one way to stroke the strings with their bow....if they can only move the bow from left to right, but not right to left, it will not only break their sound, but also limit the amount of sustain they have, and probably won't be recognized as being a very good cellist! Same goes for guitar. If you can only do one of the strokes, you better work on your other. Its all about control and intention and being able to create an excellent tone with both strokes. Don't limit yourself to only rest stroke or free stroke.
So which should you practice more? Whichever one is not yet developed, then spend time improving the one which you already have developed. Its a constant goal to always improve. Why limit yourself? The possibilities are endless, really.

doug.

[daniel711]

Ok Libre, so then rest stroke for scales, free stroke for arpeggios?? That's fine, but what about NON-arpeggio single line passages? How do you practice that? I'm just saying that by doing free stroke scales you develop a strong free stroke. Arpeggios take advantage of the opposing force of the thumb, and therefore aren't the best way to develop a "strong" free stroke. But I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm really addressing the problems of technique development, which, I presume, don't apply to you at this point...

Dap - Sorry,I just saw your post....I'll get to you later..

[daniel711]

Ok, I'm back
In my last post I meant to say that arpeggios were not the best way to develop a strong FREE stroke (I had written "rest" by mistake). Dap- I agree with everything you say here. I just want to add, or re-state, that IMO free strokes should be practiced without the thumb, same as rest strokes. In this way they get equal development. Just to drive my point home, try an experiment (you too Libre).. Turn on the metronome and play a couple of Segovia scales using ONLY free stroke. Come back and tell me that this is NOT difficult or awkward for you. If you do, then you've developed a good free stroke, if not I rest my case..........good luck!

[rumbamaster]

I love this forum! 4 pages of what's better a free stroke or a rest stroke? I happen to like both EQUALLY. Sure, it makes sence to play scales with a rest stroke because they are fat, loud and fast. But useing a free stroke on scales gives a delicate sensitivity that can not be acheived with a rest stoke. This is very apparent in the recording studio. (I'm not sure how many of you guys record.) With a nice microphone volume is no longer an issue and you can really get soft and delicate. That's not to say that you can't get soft with a rest stroke because you can. But a free stroke will give you another color to paint your musical picture. Now who can be against that?

[brian richardson]

when doing the segovia scales i use the free stroke for the major and rest stroke for the relative minor. the next day vice-versa.
also i think, i could be wrong since i don't read every line when the sparks start flying round here, that there was a question/problem with volume of the free strokes. just don't push the rest strokes so hard and you can even it out that way. begining to sound pornografik :lol:

:twisted: wie gehts junge?? :twisted:
not much time lately been getting in gear for deutschland. i'll update via mobile sat assisted typing thingy........ 8)
:twisted:

[Libre]

You know, sometimes describing in words to someone, something that you do very naturally, can yield some very strange, even innacurate information. Down boys! I mean on my part. It's like if I give someone directions to get to my home (no danger of that happening here) I might make a mistake in my direction giving that I would never make if I was just driving.
Now rest strokes free strokes. What in blazes do any strokes have to do with driving directions. I was re-reading this thread, and especially my own posts (ok I'm vain) and I realized what I wrote is not what I really do. It was what I thought I do. Fact of the matter is, I don't even know what strokes I do when I'm not playing the piece. Oh, I can visualize some of it. I rarely (if ever) notate free or rest in the arrangement though. When I get to the note, I just know.
I said you should play scales rest stroke, and other stuff free stroke. I'm now saying that is bull. When in a piece does the music stop and wait while you play a simple ascending and descending diatonic Segovia scale (actually doesn't sound so simple when I say it like that) but the answer is almost never. There are jumps and other voices and phrasing to consider, bass lines, and usually other things happening. When there are lots of other things happening, I think I would normally play a free stroke because the right hand seems to have more range and be able to cover all the strings (at one time) in a free stroke position, but not a rest stroke position. That's a notion that really hasn't come up yet here, and I'd be interested to see what y'all think of that.
I didn't mean to blow by this point earlier (when I said beginners don't even ask). You should ask. And the answer is that (at least for me) there is a subtle difference in right hand (and shoulder) position in a free stroke versus rest stroke position. If you are rapidly switching back and forth, then you have to maintain a neutral position. But if you are going into an extended section of mostly rest strokes or mostly free strokes, you change your position. In fact, when I get set to play the Recuerdos (almost all free stroke), I adobt my Recuerdos position in which not just my right hand, but my entire body shifts with respect to the guitar. I'm trying to optimize my angle into the strings. You need a real low angle to get a really clean tremolo - you want to avoid the string below the tremmed string. My head shifts a bit to the right - further from the left hand (which is relatively easy in this piece) in favor getting closer to the right. THe neck and fingerboard get shifted forward, angled out a bit. All this is a matter of inches. But it makes a huge difference, in your ability to execute powerful free strokes. You get the guitar to where you can dig into the strings, almost, and come off them powerfully, while still avoiding the string below. A simple walking rest stroke, compared to this, is, well, a walk.
Then other times I'm doing something super complicated with my left hand - say a Scarlatti sonata for an example - where there are stretches and inner trills and all sorts of fireworks on the left. Then I'll shift my head over to the left - my eye might be over the 5th fret - or even lower. That frees up the left hand a bit, but puts the right out of it's optimal position.
I can do free or rest in either of these positions, though.

[dap22]

Hey guys, seems like this thread is winding down to a comfortable end and people are seeming to agree, if not at least respect the others opinions and uses.
Daniel-No it does not feel awkward or more challenging to do free stroke scales. I will admit that it did at first, but I practice scales, both free stroke and rest stroke, almost every single day with the metronome. This goes the same for slurs, left hand independence, arpeggios, shifting, and rasgueadas (while I do not play flamenco (wish I could though!), I practice different rasgueadas in order for more strength and stability in my left hand)
Your case however, is completely rested. I agree 100% that you should be able to do these scales both free stroke and rest stroke.
Libre-In most pieces, I feel it is somewhat important to know exactly what stroke you are using, at least when learning the piece. After it is a conscious effort, it does become automatic. This way, you should play using the same strokes in the same passages of the pieces. Say with a Bach Cello suite, its not a guessing game...you need to know what fingers you are using, what alternation, where the melodies are, and what strokes you are using...if not...well, I personally find I am lost and have trouble finding my way back in the piece!
At first, all my practicing is a concious concentrated effort. After lots of thinking, studying, memorizing, metronome work, it should become somewhat automatic. Once it is automatic, and I move on to other pieces, I might not have a complete memory recall of each stroke I use in each measure, however, when it is time to play them...using those specific strokes at those specific places in the piece is the only way I know how to play it! It's not a guessing game. You should know where to go, and how you are going to get there. Knowing this gives you more room to be free in thought and musical in your performance...and isn't that what we strive for? First you learn all the little pieces, so that when you put them together, the audience can see the big picture....and not only that, you are the one that adds color to the picture.

This has turned into quite a good topic, although we are somewhat off topic to a certain extent, the topic of rest stroke scales has developed into some good thought! thanks.

Doug.

[Libre]

Doug-
Quite right, it's best to work out all the left and right fingerings and nuances. And I do, initially, as you do. Thing is, I've been playing so long that rest or free really is second nature to me. Right hand fingering is kind of second nature as well, unless there is a hitch or a trouble spot - and there are plenty of those. On a typical day busking, I might play the Bach Cello Suites (1 and 3) like, 5 or more times. I'm not so sure it's necessary to so completely chart out how you are going to play something. I just take it from measure one and go. And I never play it the same way twice. I know this seems undiciplined. TO the audience, it seems spontaneous, and live. Can you imagine how hard it must be for a theater actor to deliver lines like he really means them, every day and twice on Wednesday? It's a challange for street players too, who play all day long and back the next to do it again. I just do it on the weekends, though.

[Mischa Z]

Hi, Folks,

For years, I have listened to guitarists play very wierd phrases, due to using the rest stroke whenever they can, even when they can't play several notes of a phrase due to notes on the adjacent string. This is very detrimental to the music, of course. Still, a relaxed rest stroke has a lot to offer, the tone can be very striking, far richer than a free stroke.

I see some discussion of thumb up strokes on this website today as well. It was my pleasure to study a bit on China's great instrument, the "chin," and my teacher was a master musician, renowned for his pipa playing. Around 1940, R. H. Van Gulik wrote a wonderful book on this instrument, "The Lore of the Chinese Lute," and sometimes Tuttle reprints this book. The chin has a 3000-year history, even Confucious played it. Tonal variation is EVERYTHING with this instrument, so one finger is never substituted for another, since each finger has a unique quality of sound. There are something like 26 types of vibrato, one being a slight increase of left hand finger pressure, so the blood's pulse is transmitted to the string. There are techniques where 2 fingers sound the string. There are techniques where 3 fingers sound the string! There are up strokes and down strokes with each finger! So, using the rest stroke for its particular tonal variation is hardly scratching the surface of the guitar's possibilities. It is quite magical, really, the fact that we classical guitarists have direct contact with the string. Like the Chinese, we can also wake the memory of the wood to its home in the forest, to sing once again of High Mountains and Flowing Streams. and tonal shading is one of our finest resources.

So, I also studied with Ali Akbar Khan for 3 years at his College of India's classical music in San Rafael, California. Since this music uses only one melodic line, I found that there is nothing like the rest stroke for matching the volume of the sitar and sarod players in these classes, and the rest stroke is just more beautiful to listen to. Therin lies the magic of the classical guitar, and I've had many an Indian musician expresses great admiration for the sound of my Ramirez 10-string, and this particular Ramirez has a ravishing sound. Yes, the tone of a great guitar playing say, the Concierto de Aranjuez's second movement cannot be rivaled by many instruments on this planet, and it is the rest stoke that produces the tones that captivate so many listeners when a great artist performs this piece on a great instrument!

This is a nice thread, folks, thanks for your thoughts.

All my best,
Mischa

[flamencofreak]

I know you guys are gonna hate me for this
and i dont mean i hate rest strokes i mean i can play them well
and i do practice them .But free strokes is the way to go with scales shredding .Thats what i have been playing much more than rest strokes.
I also here the assad bro dont use rest strokes at all.

Hey, Antigone, I used to live in San Diego (Pacific Beach, Windansea, Mira Mesa), and cut my flamenco teeth there taking lessons at the Blue Guitar (then on Midway Drive) from a guy named David Cheney. I think it's just called the Blue Guitar Workshop now, but I don't remember where it is these days.

Depends a lot on what kind of sound you want whether you use rest stroke or free stroke. In flamenco playing you use a lot of rest stroke. I'm trying to imagine playing scales using free stroke...wow...seems strange to me. :)