rosewood fingerboard and ebony fingerboard

[et041053]

rosewood fingerboard or ebony fingerboard does it really makes any difference?

[MWA]

Probably no effect on the sound, but ebony does not wear as easily and some people think it looks better. The only effect it has on sound is by association, better guitars have ebony fingerboards.

[Zak]

Wears better, looks better, and for some reason, I think it feels better.

[Pepe Vergara]

I prefer Brazilian (not Indian) rosewood for flamenco guitars

[Jubilee Valence]

! as the fingerboard of my '04 R1, has above all it's other attributes, the natural ability to ALARM me--when--conditions are either A) too dry; or B) not too dry;..batting 1.000 for both A) & B);A)-1 event....B) every day :wink:ALSO....only other ebony is on Jazzer---Semi-Acoustic...it's bound all the way around to nut and never a problem....all others --rosewood-"worry free";except for 2 "MAPLES",strat & tele...Pepe? is maple ever used in "our" realm of nylon strung instruments...it's abundant in electrics & semi's...

[Armando]

Hello

Ebony is the traditional wood used for fingerboards on all kind of stringed instruments. This is, as already mentioned, mainly due to it's hardness and because it makes visually a nice contrast with the guitartop and the frets.

My opinion about ebony is, that there are much better woods from the acoustic point of view. Just take a blank of brazilian rosewood and a blank of ebony and knok them. You will notice a big difference in the sonority of this two woods. Therefore i agree with Pepe, that brazilian is most probably the better choice. I have not yet built a guitar with a fretboard made of brazilian to be able to tell the difference, but the knoking indicates that Pepe is right.

However, ebony remains to be the tonewood favourized by most luthiers to build their better guitars. This is like an image thing. A top of the line guitar must have an ebony fretboard. This is expected by most buyers.

Armando

[Jubilee Valence]

.....ivory?nah never work.........eyes?nope..........wait,that's it! ebony bridge!...like on ALL "top of the line"......non-nylons & nylons alike....aaaaahhh!

[deAlmeida]

advantages of indian rosewood vs. ebony: the indian rosewood is more stable in terms of hygroscopicity and is more colorful. it is also significantly cheaper.

I don't think it matters about the acoustic point of view and about sonority of the woods that Armando is talking about. The fingerboard is not involved in tone production. I sincerely doubt any claims to discernable differences in tone production of two identical instruments made with rosewood and ebony fingerboards.

[daniel711]

Yeah, what about that?? Ebony bridges? :idea: Steel strings have them, and I happen to have a Martin (C.F. that is) classical with a big 'ebony' bridge....

[Armando]

advantages of indian rosewood vs. ebony: the indian rosewood is more stable in terms of hygroscopicity and is more colorful. it is also significantly cheaper.

I don't think it matters about the acoustic point of view and about sonority of the woods that Armando is talking about. The fingerboard is not involved in tone production. I sincerely doubt any claims to discernable differences in tone production of two identical instruments made with rosewood and ebony fingerboards.

Hello DeAlmeida

I agree, that the fretboard is not a part that contributes to a large extend to the sound of the guitar, but in the electric guitar community it is doubtless that guitars with rosewood fingerboard sound sligtly different than tose with ebony fingerboards, so why this should not be the case with acoustic guitars? Of course we are talking about small nuances, but in my opinion a couple of small improvements can make a significant difference in an instrument.

regards

Armando

[Pepe Vergara]

advantages of indian rosewood vs. ebony: the indian rosewood is more stable in terms of hygroscopicity and is more colorful. it is also significantly cheaper.

I don't think it matters about the acoustic point of view and about sonority of the woods that Armando is talking about. The fingerboard is not involved in tone production. I sincerely doubt any claims to discernable differences in tone production of two identical instruments made with rosewood and ebony fingerboards.

I was talking about Brazilian rosewood versus ebony. There is a big difference between Brazilian and Indian. Here it goes anther curve: I love bridges made of MAHOGANY for flamenco guitars. Too bad it wears out faster, otherwise, I would use it in my guitars that I sell. I onlyhave it in one that I play.

I certainly disagree with everyone who says that certain parts of the gutiar do ont contribute to the sound. EVERTHING CONTRIBUTES TO THE SOUND PRODUCED BY THE GUITAR, even the way you grab the guitar, the way you touch the guitar with your chest, legs, etc. Someone mentioned the NUANCES of the sound. Isn't is what EVERY players in this forum is trying to find? Everyone here is trying to get this guitar of the other. Do you think it is just the name in the level that makes the difference, or all the materials used, and the wht they were assembled? Antonio de Torres and other luthiers before him mentioned in their writings (collected by Jose Romanillos) that ebony was used mainly for aesthetic purposes. It looks good. It is the less resonating sound. It is being used by luthiers to explote that characteristic. If you want to use it for classical and negate any vibration from the fretboard/neck, then that is your wood. If you want to make the fretboard/neck participant in the sound of the gutiar, then use Brazilian rosewood or any other wood. That is the reason I like BR for flamenco. I want all the guitar to participate in the sound of the guitar, like Robert E. Brune said once: "I want to get the feminine voice of the guitar", the sound or voice that he heard once in Andalucia when from a window a woman called his man and said: "Oye Pepe, ven para aca" ("Hey Pepe, come over here").

Also: Be aware that every black fretboard is not necessarily made of ebony. Many alhambra flamenco guitars (lower end) have their fretboard made of several other woods that you would never imagine but dyed or painted, whatever C. Vega says.



Bottom line: There are no absolutes in guitar makings.

[Kris Chae]

Robert Brune? Or Richard Brune'? :D

[jfrench]

Surely you mean Richard Brune, but the bigger issue is.... Writings by Torres???

I would like to know Torres' opinions on many things, but unfortunately we have none of his writings or notes on guitarmaking - only what we can deduct and surmise from his work after the fact.

Could you please provide a reference as to where in any of Jose's books or articles the acoustic properties of ebony is mentioned and what maker is the source?

Best wishes,
Joshua A. French

[Pepe Vergara]

You are right. It must be Richard (my Spanish memory does not work well with Anglo names). Also, Jose's book shows very little in term of Torres' writing. Maybe a letter or two. I do not remember the exact page, but the quote may have been Torres or Pages. It is referenced here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0933224923/qid=1111095059/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-1232620-3360039?v=glance&s=books

[jfrench]

There were no references on that webpage, just an opportunity to buy a book I already have... I've read the book probably at least 20 times over the past several years.

The closest thing resembling a quote from Torres anywhere I could find is in a letter from Juan Martinez Sirvent 39 years after Torres death. He was quoting a conversation they'd had at least 39 years before, in a letter to Sr. D. Francisco Rodriguez Torres. This letter doesn't say anything about ebony either.

The closest thing to be found to Torres' writings in the Romanillos books seem to be debt assessments and such which mention but were not written by him. Nothing about his thoughts guitars or otherwise.

It is not of paramount importance, but we do need to remember that what we know of Torres is from our impressions of the remaining guitars, not his.

Best wishes,
Joshua A. French

[gjo]

"I want to get the feminine voice of the guitar", the sound or voice that he heard once in Andalucia when from a window a woman called his man and said: "Oye Pepe, ven para aca" ("Hey Pepe, come over here")."

I wouldn´t like my guitars to sound like that woman! He is usually drunk and she is angry!

[Tomas-Lobos]

IMHO, any wood or material used anywhere on the guitar that will vibrate and absorb sound waves will subtract from the vibrations that reach the soundboard (except the bridge). This will in turn affect the or even dampen the soundboard to some varying degree. A fretboard material that is very dense and absorbs very liitle vibration would seem to be the material of choice. There must be a reason other than appearance for the use of 'ebony' by all the great luthiers in this critical part of the classical guitar.

[jfrench]

The choice of ebony for a fingerboard is certainly not going to ruin an otherwise good guitar, and it does exhibit the characteristics most important to its primary function (to hold frets, etc).

A cursory glance at some things that actually are in the Romanillos book gives the impression that Torres favored ebony for his most expensive instruments, and used rosewood for his simpler work.

best wishes,
J. French

[gjo]

[quote="Pepe Vergara"]You are right. It must be Richard (my Spanish memory does not work well with Anglo names). Also, Jose's book shows very little in term of Torres' writing. Maybe a letter or two. I do not remember the exact page, but the quote may have been Torres or Pages.


Pepe Vergara

Many years ago I translated 50 % of the Torres book into german (the other half was done by my friend Tobias Braun) and I am quite sure, at least 150 %, that nothing of Torres´ writings survived or is known.

We don´t know anything "first hand" about his personal preferences or what he himself thought about his work, including the famous cardboard guitar about which many people seem to know exactly what he wanted to show. How can they do that. Most of what we know is coming from his instruments and other documents like, as Joshua French wrote, the letter of Martínez Sirvent

If you want to quote from a book of that quality you should have read it or better not refering to it.

Might be that your "spanish memory" works better with the spanish version which was published last year (ISBN: 84-8108-306-2)

With very best wishes

Yours sincerely

Gerhard J. Oldiges

[Pepe Vergara]

I am very impressed with the academic rigour that some people view these posts (for certain aspects of it). But for the others, they do not have comments. I will make sure that the next time I write somthing, I will have the library available and a Ph.D. next to me to guide me in the comments made here (as loose as any other made here). To claim translation of a book and to claim to have read a book 20 times and do not recognize that there is a paragraph dedicated to the use of ebony for fretboard mostly for aestethic reasons is unbelievable. I only read the book once in English, and I certainly remember the reference. I am not going to bother now, searching for the page to proof what? That you are better or worst than another ? See my quote below in my signature. I leave the task to find out the reference to ebony to you. I do not have to proof I am right, you have to proof I am wrong, and definetly not with your background and education or knowledge of other languages, but on how you treat others. At least that is what the son of a poor carpenter taught me long time ago.

[keith]

uhh? the son of a poor carpenter? is this jesus? torres' son? roscoe whose father was a carpenter?

pepe: in reading the comments made by others i do not see how these folks who have a history with the publication and have provided information about the publication have misbehaved (i.e., how one treats others) to the point that would justify the invocation of the son of a poor carpenter. what exactly did this son of a poor carpenter say?

[Pepe Vergara]

uhh? the son of a poor carpenter? is this jesus? torres' son? roscoe whose father was a carpenter?

pepe: in reading the comments made by others i do not see how these folks who have a history with the publication and have provided information about the publication have misbehaved (i.e., how one treats others) to the point that would justify the invocation of the son of a poor carpenter. what exactly did this son of a poor carpenter say?

I am afraid to say, I do not have my Bible with me. The truth is I only read the Bible once (not sure if I completed it). I am not sure either if he would have favored ebony over rosewood if he were in the lutherie trade.

[gjo]

[quote="Pepe Vergara"]

To claim translation of a book and to claim to have read a book 20 times and do not recognize that there is a paragraph dedicated to the use of ebony for fretboard mostly for aestethic reasons is unbelievable. ...

I do not have to proof I am right, you have to proof I am wrong, ...


Pepe Vergara

You seem to have misunderstood me. I refered to your statement about Torres´ writings. We don´t know of any writings and in literature there are no references to any personal writings of Torres. This subject is to serious to be taken and handled in your easy way - independent from whatever you mean.

You claimed that there are personal writings and you should proof it, not me, I wrote that I don´t know of any - and if you can´t you should be decent enough to admit that you have been wrong.

With best wishes

Gerhard J. Oldiges

[brian richardson]

gjo,
tread lightly new friend. :twisted:

[jfrench]

There is one extremely important point here - that everything we know of Torres' instruments is based on our own understanding of them, because he did not leave behind any of his impressions as the maker.

I consider it a matter of respect to someone who has had an overwhelming influence on the development of the intrument to not try to put words in his [Torres'] mouth in an attempt to substantiate our opinions.

I also consider it a matter of respect to not misrepresent or misquote the work of Jose Romanillos. The amount of time and energy he has put into unravelling and recording the history of the Spanish guitar - both in his biography of Torres and in his reference work on the Vihuela de Mano and the Spanish guitar - is nothing short of a gracious gift to us all. These works have filled an incredible void in the history of the guitar.

One paragraph in the Romanillos book does state that ebony is used more for its "exotic origins than for its acoustic qualities" [page 81]. Yet this statement is not made by Torres, it is made by Pablo Nassarre who to the best of my knowledge was not a guitar maker. Further, he is speaking in regards to the use of ebony for the back and ribs, not the fingerboard, which is where your confusion must lay. Further to this, the only reason he gave for thinking ebony was not a good idea is that "its qualities are not what they are supposed to be". How profound. And this opinion from 1724 did not seem to dissuade anyone from using it for their fingerboards.

But the deeper issue, and an important point is that as a maker of guitars you are presenting an opinion, and trying to back it up with things that do not exist. Then when asked, you still provide no evidence for such things. It does us all a disservice for you to perpetuate incorrect information, especially when given in a persuasive manner. When someone asks a question they are either seeking the advice of others who have more experience or seeking the opinions of their peers. When answering such questions, we owe it to them to check our facts before answering if we want our opinions to carry any weight.


Best wishes,
Joshua A. French

[Armando]

Hello

It makes no sense to blame each another or to insist to be right on this issue. I think none of us has really an idea about why Torres used which wood for which part of the guitar.

I just want to mention something that has been left out so far. It's the availlablity of certain woodspecies in the time when Torres was building his instruments. It is mentioned in this book as well, that Antonio de Torres didn't had always access to the appropriate woods suited for guitarmaking. Some of the woods such as Rosewood was expencive and not always availlable. I can very well imagine that he was sometimes forced to work with the wood that he had on hand. He was resawing wood which was destined for carpintry. Some of his guitars feature backs made of different smaller pieces of wood. Nevertheless he was able to build excellent guitars that where far ahead in comparisson to guitars made by other makers in his time. This indicates, that it is not the kind of wood used but the skill of the maker which desides about the final quality of the instrument.

btw. Richard Bruné wrote an article in the GAL Magazine issue nr. 49.
He named the eight most important points to consider for building a great guitar. Wood was not even mentioned as a factor.

Armando

[jfrench]

Armando - I agree for the most part. Torres could likely make a good guitar out of anything, as evidenced by his cardboard guitar.

If someone likes rosewood instead of ebony its no problem. I don't disagree with this. However, being that I have a great interest in Torres and his guitars, I find it difficult to let someone basically quote him with references that don't exist. Jose Romanillos is a friend for whom I hold immeasureable regard (as is Gerhard Oldiges), and if someone makes a claim that is incorrect and attributes the source to Jose they are treating his hard work and research with disregard.

The most important thing though, is that if Torres wrote down any of his opinions on guitar making I really want to get my hands on them! I would be most pleased to be wrong on this matter.

Best wishes,
Joshua A. French

[Pepe Vergara]

I stand as corrected.

Best wishes

[Jubilee Valence]

gjo,
tread lightly new friend. :twisted:gjo,
tread lightly new friend. :twisted:Lets add a couple more names to that list....Kieth!?-chill-"on how you treat others"..no reference to invocation,merely a reminder on--how you treat others...Joshua(...the stonecutter comes to mind),while it is indeed noble to come to the aid of a "friend",(in this case apparently both JR & GO--"immeasurable regard")can you do so when waving the banner of "..disregard" as it is possibly wavering across your field of vision?Not in a real joust, and not here. If I may,I would like the opportunity to,as you have demonstrated,stand up for my "friend", in whom I hold "immeasurable regard"--spawn from association with the man here,and prior to my arrival(not long ago;think "quality of time",rather than "quantity"), by assessing his character as it were,in referencing his archives.I will say he is of fine charactor;caballero;and is prone to let slip his humanity as is anyone else,..but lets establish this fact--here and now;in this chapter,in this book, in English.Pepe Vergara did not intentionally deceive anyone or smear Torres or make "knowingly false" claims about "quotes" from the "book".That is a fact based upon my knowledge;One person only can dispute that fact,Pepe himself. I am under the impression by reason of your fusilade of nit-picking at the error he made, over and above any reasonable corrective advice & in keeping respectful aknowledgement of a genuine language barrier issue,that perhaps you and your associate(s)have somewhat differing views.If so,stand & be recognized as such.Dispense with your superior attitude and finger pointing;it doesn't hold a candle to the dark accusations that Pepe,in relaying his best recollections of a related subject has committed a foul crime against the entire guitar culture & ,EEK,this crime is therefore transgressed entirely upon your good name(s) as the caretakers/defenders of the "book".Perhaps it is I who is overly melodramadic in this view,if so,I most graciously apologize for reading---"something else"---into your.........comments.Gentlemen,do I need to point out that in his discussion with deAl, he "recalled" your book,Torres,and relied on the authority that it portrays in his mind;Do you gentlemen know of the additional peculiarities involved--in only that 1st post?Of flamenco?;Of mahogany?;Of BR?;Of "certificates"?;Of "cutting power to the grid"?(yes the EPA!)...Tread lightly indeed!Carry with you the oak itself!...This book!--In that you have imagined such vile deeds against --as you impugn a fellow luthier in giving credit due in a mish-mashed fashion to one or another of it's subjects...does it not say to the relevence of ebony as an aesthetic(page 81?),but! --by a non-luthier!-- In the greatest work in all of recorded history!--About "braces"!..Was this "opinion" in the greatest "book"-- quoted as the prevailing thought of the day?Is Torres in this "book";Is it fair for someone reading in their best English,to understand that what little we do have--Thank the Saints! that it's all in one "book"!;--in which(up 'til now--I dare say)Pepe felt was a "Rock";A compendium of Grand Universal Knowledge to hold dear to his heart!That heart gentlemen, beats for his love-of his trade,& the music that it represents.I thank Sr. Vergara for bringing up the spirit of the "book" & what it represents;I can also thank you gentleman for your gracious understanding in a simple language picadillo,& in your exemplary humility in helping to bring the relevent points out in the open,so we can all gain wisdom in our love of the guitar & afford Sr.Romanillos y Sr.Torres et al, the respect that they so truly deserve;Certainly gentlemen of such calibre would not advise a fellow thus:"If you want to quote from a book of that quality you should have read it or better not refering to it."--Or even dally with the notion that a certain Mr.Brune makes "odd" statements to be tossed about with "disregard";Such is not the true musings of gentleman;Rather perhaps of those who would never imagine the consequences that such ideas might have in reversing perceptions and,thus, the loyalties that coincide with "immeasurable regard" get quickly and resolutely "disregarded". Joshua French,Gerhard J. Oldiges,--How say ye?

[gjo]

Keith,

are there any rules for this forum like:

Never question an incorrect information !

I would be very grateful for a serious answer.

Thank you very much.

Gerhard J. Oldiges

[Jubilee Valence]

Obviously discretion is no part of your "valor";of which you possess-none.Did you understand any of that?If you cant understand me when I'm talkin' right AT ya' ,then you damn sure aint got no business judgin'...This aint about a book,liar!You made that obvious when you were mouthin' off about Mr. Brune...it's painfully,dreadfully obvious pardner,you aint got a clue about class,discretion,valor,or even self-respect!Damn! Do you know what "stand and be recognized" means?Do you know what "stand" means?Ask Pepe Vergara!;Remember him?He said: "I STAND corrected"...I'm "standing" right now!GJO,don't play games cryin' ta' Kieth!Who else do you need to "invoke"....What say ye,RF?..p.s..add the obligatory "Misinterpretation" "Escape clause"....works both ways pardner,my creed mandates I offer it to ya'.....-to the point of no return...your choice.

[Jubilee Valence]

Keith,

are there any rules for this forum like:

Never question an incorrect information !

I would be very grateful for a serious answer.

Thank you very much.

Gerhard J. OldigesWant rules?...This ring a bell?-QUOTE:"You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws"END QUOTE(...GOTTA TELL YA' THAT-CUZ YA' DIDN'T FIGGER' IT OUT THE FIRST TIME,SEE?)...just on this thread alone, I'd say you're good for blowin' 5 outta' 7+,pretty tame if ya' ask me...but...ya' didn't! :P LOLOLOLOLOLOL...so :P ......what? :P LOLOLOLOL...which two? :? :arrow: ....RRRRRRRRRUUUUUUUUUFFFFFFFFFFFF. :?: :arrow: ..........MMMMMMMMMMBBBBBBBBBBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :?: :arrow: ......oh,never mind!Toodle-loo!Kisses!--------JUBIDUBIDUBIDUBIDUBIDU-YA!!!!!!!!

[Faya]

"Toodle-Loo! Kisses!".........., :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OK!!!!!................, now that's just plain FUNNY!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

[keith]

gjo inquired whether there are rules in this forum about questioning information--well i am a poster and not the moderator so i cannot provide the authorative answer about specific rules. however, i have been posting here for quite some time and i have seen many statements questioned.

with any discourse the right to question should be allowed. if i make the statement, 2+2= 5 i will be questioned, or should be questioned, and it is incumbent on me to prove that 2+2=5. it is also incumbent on me to acknowledge that others may question me and since i made the initial statement, it is on me to verify that statement.

pepe made this comment: "I do not have to proof I am right, you have to proof I am wrong, and definetly not with your background and education or knowledge of other languages, but on how you treat others. At least that is what the son of a poor carpenter taught me long time ago."

when i re-read the posts i did not see how the posters were mistreating him (pepe) . they were holding him to a very basic principle: when we state something as fact it is our responsibility to back it up.

it was the last sentence that i made reference to with respect to invoking whoever the son of the poor carpenter may be. i am not slamming pepe as a person but i think he should have not made reference to those who disagreed with him as mistreating him. my perception was that he saw himself boxed in a corner and made reference to others mistreating him which i believe they were not.

as to jubliee: i did not come to anyone's defense nor do i believe anyone was acting in a nefarious manner. as to the other comments....i will leave well enough alone.

[gjo]

Dear members of this forum,
dear moderator (sorry Keith),

I did not expect that everybody agrees to my opinion when I started to question an information that I thought was not correct. I must admit that I enjoyed the slightly polemic way the discussion went on and if we look at other threads we can find quite a bit of polemic, but I definitely don´t enjoy the style of the last posts.

Reactions like these freighten me,

they freighten me to death!

Never in my life I experienced so much anger and hate and I am not going to react and communicate to this style.

As I said, I don´t expect anybody to agree to my posts - but I expect that this forum and its members disagree to this style.

Gerhard J. Oldiges

[NGiorgio]

Peace, brothers .........

[Jubilee Valence]

Dear members of this forum,
dear moderator (sorry Keith),

I did not expect that everybody agrees to my opinion when I started to question an information that I thought was not correct. I must admit that I enjoyed the slightly polemic way the discussion went on and if we look at other threads we can find quite a bit of polemic, but I definitely don´t enjoy the style of the last posts.

Reactions like these freighten me,

they freighten me to death!

Never in my life I experienced so much anger and hate and I am not going to react and communicate to this style.

As I said, I don´t expect anybody to agree to my posts - but I expect that this forum and its members disagree to this style.

Gerhard J. OldigesBitte,I concur!;I defer;dankansie ja

[Jubilee Valence]

......we haf a sayink here undt this lands;"fight fire with fire!":gut ja? Auf..p.s.KIETH!...right on!...but I did..."detect"...a little...over reaction(?)..hence....I too(as usual) will follow your lead,you "peacekeeper" you!Hasta, or as we :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: have been known to say: OPRE ROMA!....entonces,Adios y Vaya con Dios!!

[J. Francis]

Jube:
This is a comment over your first post. When I was 16, I volunteered to go to Vietnam. They did not accept me, I was too young. When I was old enough, the war was over. I would have loved to serve next to you. I know I would have been safe. I have no comment on the other stuff. I think it was blown away of proportions. Considering that most of the people who post on this forum has no clue about guitars. I have read Pepe's other posts and noticed that he has been very humble in his opinions trying to help others here. To the point that he has recommended many luthiers but him. I do not think a miss-quote like this is going to kill anyone, but the response from others creates an Inquisition type forum in this peaceful site.

[jfrench]

In a private email to me from Jubilee Valence - if I remove the threats, profanity, accusations, personal insults and attacks on my character (which were numerous and quite vile) - it seems I can almost rationalize Jubilee's agressive hatred and anger.

He seems to feel as though somehow Pepe Vergara was wronged or "hurt" by being corrected in this thread. I do not believe this to be the case, and I sincerely hope Pepe Vergara does not feel that way. This was certainly not the intention.

The points raised in this thread are points I consider important. I don't believe any of us should let our tempers and egos get in the way of ultimately finding the correct knowledge.

It is better for me to get a headache reading these exhaustive posts and email then for anyone to come away with facts that are inaccurate. When did political correctness become more important than factual accuracy?

Call me anything you wish, so long as truth will out.

Best wishes,
Joshua A. French

[Pepe Vergara]

Jubelee, Joshua, Gerhard:
Peace be with all of us!!. Let's move on, let's talk guitars. Joshua is a luthier I admire too much to feel offended by him. Jubi, you are owesome! I do not know Gerhard, but I am sure I have a lot to learn from him too. Keith: the son of a carpenter I refer to was my father-in-low, who worked as a French-polish finisher in Valencia for several years before moving to the US. He actually taught me French polish. I am going to post one of his photos on my website. He never made it as a luthier, I guess he prefered the smell of booz :D

[jfrench]

Pepe,

I am pleased to know you aren't offended. Thank you. Did your father in law FP for anyone notable? Seems like in Spain most of the good makers have someone else doing their polishing...

Cheers and best wishes,
Joshua

[Pepe Vergara]

Joshua: I do not think so. He may have done some work for Antonio Aparicio in Valencia, that is a name that he frequently mentions. Nowdays, his memory is gone. He was working for a shop, not independently. I have spoken with Antonio, and he could not tell because of that. However, he still remembers how to polish the guitar with bear hands. I noticed you are building with tornavoz. I may ask you a question or two about it in the future.

[Jubilee Valence]

In a private email to me from Jubilee Valence - if I remove the threats, profanity, accusations, personal insults and attacks on my character (which were numerous and quite vile) - it seems I can almost rationalize Jubilee's agressive hatred and anger....Call me anything you wish, so long as truth will out.......B**/**s,Joshua A. French.......a couple of pertinent things...Don Pepe,"con su permiso"...This is a quote from JFrancis--:"...I do not think a miss-quote like this is going to kill anyone, but the response from others creates an Inquisition type forum in this peaceful site."...he brings up-- precisely!-- THE TWO POINTS that I became concerned with as I read in astonishment &, sorry to say, a day late...However, :D if either of the two GEE, GOLLY! had merely(and justifiably so, perhaps...) corrected Sr. Vergara on a confused issue-ONE TIME each, then this statement,quoted above,while being keenly perceptive with no bias whatsoever,could be taken by some :shock: as to be an unnecessary re-hashing of a past,"over" event.(as opposed to nothing at all--& thank you JFrancis :twisted: for a good "stand up" call)This primary issue(which Mr. Francis refers to)was indeed over this morning as all men of good charactor STOOD to be recognized-even the "nuetrals"-including one called by name for a supposed respite or at best, sympathy.Sympathy!While ridiculing :roll: in print-our forum rules & treating another forum member,myself, as a non-entity :shock: worthy of no response,mirroring the GEE GOLLY! that he had shown earlier against another member as if he,himself 8) occupies a great lofty realm in a "draconion"[edit:...not you,Sorin!] caste system...Indeed!It's truly unfortunate that that issue is done as I would enjoy nothing better than to provide further lessons :wink: on "how to treat people"[edit: like I'm doin' now?]-- if I may borrow a saying from a now famous, poor,thirsty,french polishin', son of a carpenter.But,stand I will,upon the brevity of the end of it;fire vs fire;suddenly,no more fire!--just as suddenly!- the GREATER fire;had ceased,fini.The gentleman referenced stated"I am not going to react and communicate to this style."That is a wise statement & if anything was learned :roll: ,"that style" should not ever confront him again."That style" is what stopped the forementioned issue from continuing ad infinitum, until another member on perhaps another forum said something unpleasent in the presence of the "royal caste",or any other "fair" game ie "2 on 1"..."That style" is ever present in this world;it is THE basic principal in which Kieth was referring of several virtues that must be "invoked"(again,Kieth), when situation warrants;............Hence,.....the GEE GOLLY! that occupies the upper segment of this post;Indeed-the sole reason for this post,-An entirely different issue altogether! And,I'll point out,"signed" as warrant dictates by definition;sealed;You,Joshua French,are GEE GOLLY!probably a nice guy :roll: !What you have printed, Joshua French, is a *big fat no-no*!You are a GEE GOLLY!-little bit off :roll: ....Your own words,in each of your posts here,convict you of your true intent,as you GEE GOLLY!(ahem--"say") each time in a supposed alibi or cover story(smoke screen) in your ** attempts to appear "innocent", AND of all things-"virtuous"! You talk out of ** of your mouth -in each post!You haven't missed one!--"Pepe,I am pleased to know you aren't offended"-stop right there!....What in the world would give you the idea he was offended,something you said, over & over?*[not YOU!..right?]*-I said?...sure, I made it up...Hey if he's mad at me,what are you worried about?...oh! your "virtue"....the kind of "virtue" that you feel for all men,of course,you said so, right here:"When did political correctness become more important than factual accuracy?"...in other words,your "royal **-ness"[uh-oh!], your duty is to go against political correctness(usually considered as discreetly guiding your brother to better himself:get it right;instruct respectfully;teach, not by embarrassment and threats of further humiliation! -but "by example of virtue"-which you do not* -are workin' on!-* clue) because something you call factual accuracy is more vital...like, for instance,your "***" up top there...don't worry Joshua French,we'll expose that "***" in due time.Back to your last post-and don't worry Joshua French,if it's confusing,or EEK! -a trick!-by using two posts....no trick;no "changing the context"--NO WAY [sir]GUY!...so, back...after you state "how pleased to know" he's not offended **-now you're using him(*which IS politically correct!*).First your beliefs say-you don't care if you hurt someone"when did political correctness..."--now it's...Gee! Golly!* I'm so pleased!fib,fib! Either you're #[confused]# about your belief--"it's more noble"--as in,"You know, just like the rest of us,that hurting someone is wrong(especially if it can be avoided-but that requires virtue-never mind!), but being that you got "caught" :P -you'll tag it with a noble,IMPORTANT,connotation...OR you're *[confused again]* about being "so pleased" that he isn't hurt--one or the other-fib!*-- either way or even both!."...and definitely not with your background and education or knowledge of other languages, but on how you treat others"..that's from Pepe...READ THAT 20 TIMES,[please,thank you] LIKE JOSE'S BOOK,if you're sincerely in belief that he wasn't offended,why in the heCK*,would he say that--to you both-together!????Who is he addressing,..plenty of clues... READ IT YOU PIECE OF GEE GOLLY!-then tell everyone- "I do not believe this to be the case, and I sincerely hope Pepe Vergara does not feel that way. This was certainly not the intention."OK! IF you expect us to believe that- "I do not believe this to be the case,"then you're calling Pepe & me & anyone who thinks different --GEE GOLLY!**[Confused again...!]---MAN, HOW ARE YOU GONNA CONVINCE ANYBODY THAT YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THE MAN HIMSELF,WHAT'S IN HIS HEART?, & YOU NEED TO TELL US ALL--"He{JUBIDUBIDU-YA} seems to feel as though somehow Pepe Vergara was wronged or "hurt" by being corrected" ..." I do not believe this to be the case," :oops: ! "and I sincerely hope Pepe Vergara does not feel that way." :oops: ! "This was certainly not the intention." :oops: ! the best you got for an excuse is to say you didn't read it,THAT would be closer to the truth,& dead ta' nuts on yer'-"When did political correctness become more important than factual accuracy? "WHY WOULD YOU EVER,EVER,EVER,SAY THAT?????? UNLESS ---YOU KNOW YOU'RE!AND TRYING TO JUSTIFY THE [oooh! better delete that!] EVER TO COME OUT OF SOMEBODY'S MOUTH,--well,except for this-"put words in his TORRES mouth"-meaning Pepe...the reason?-"to substantiate"--sounds like you're acusing him of intent,which I "*councelled*" YOU AGAINST--THE FIRST TIME.....I ASKED YOU TO[please, kind sir] STAND UP![please, kind sir] SAY IT! THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID--"He seemsEDIT think so? to feel as though somehow Pepe Vergara was wronged or "hurt" by being corrected in this thread. I do not believe this to be the case, and I sincerely hope Pepe Vergara does not feel that way. This was certainly not the intention." WHICH IS IT [ouch!,better clip that one!]**?...you know what Mr. French,[sir*]?...I don't think you know...You are one of the [no! no!, not nice!], I've ever seen!!!---HERE IT IS FOLKS--JUBI GONNA LET 'CHA IN ON A SECRET!--GOT TO!---I GAVE THIS GUY MUCHO CHANCES[he's tryin' right?] TO 'CONSIDER' THAT JUST MAYBE![edit-just maybe]...PEPE--MISUNDERSTOOD SOMETHING!...& JUST MAYBE![edit-just maybe]--THEY & I "MISUNDERSTOOD"[edit: just maybe]--SOMETHING...& ALL WE GOTTA DO IS SAY,GEE! GOLLY![that's NOT an edit!]...MAYBE IT'S NOT ALL THAT[edit-just maybe] BAD,JUST A SIMPLE COMMUNICATION[edit-just maybe] BREAKDOWN,LET'S MOVE ON[edit-please]........LIKE EVERY OTHER CLASSIC--"HE SAID/SHE SAID."[EDIT:...sure!]....& WITH EVERY,MULTIPLE,(EVEN TO YOUR E-MAIL GUY!!)--CHANCE(S) FOR YOU TO MAKE THE CALL,TO SAVE FACE,YOU THOUGHT YOU CAN STICK WITH YOUR {*whoppers?}???LIKE WHAT??YOU AND YOUR {oh,no!ouch!} ARE GONNA PREVAIL???OVER ME???WITH WHAT??THAT B.[of]S.UP TOP??--THROWING SO MANY [*no-no's*] OUT THERE GUY,HOW YOU GONNA EXPLAIN IT???TOO LATE---READ THE TOP OF THIS POST GUY! YOU WROTE THAT!!! YOU GOT NERVE[(*good quality,I'm sure!*)]!!BUT WHO IN THE HEck DO YOU THINK IS GONNA BELIEVE THAT I NEED TO THREATEN YOU?????YOU ARE (oh,no!!ouch!!)!!!!IF YOU HAD ANY [b][*juevos rancheros*],& I DID ANYTHING,[edit:WHO ME???] I MEAN ANY ONE THING THAT YOU SAY I DID[EDIT:WHO,ME???] YOU WOULD SURELY CORRECT ME[EDIT:who,me?] PERSONALLY,WOULD YOU NOT?????"Call me anything you wish, so long as truth will out"--YEAH THAT'S SOME TUFF TALK![meanie!]...RIGHT UP THERE WITH "MOMMY!!![yeah!]" OR BETTER YET--"GSI STAFF!!![don't--"wake the dragon!]---HELP,I STARTED IT[yeah,I saw 'im],BUT IT DOESNT MATTER BECAUSE I"M JOSUA FRENCH!!! MY MOMMY SAYS SO!!!MY IMMEASURABLE WHATEVER BLAH,BLAH,BLAH,...SAYS SO TOO"[yeah,so there!].THEN WHILE YOU GOT 'EM DISTRACTED ---IT'LL BE "NYAH -NYAH -NYAH" TO ME...GUESS WHAT[*..heard it before...*]----LET'S HEAR FROM SR.ROMANILLOS[please,thank you]--REMEMBER THE E-MAILS--THE REAL ONES??--HE'S 73 YRS OLD..& STAYIN' BUSY,YOU TOLD ME!.DOES HE KNOW THE REAL YOU[*kinder,gentler...]????WOULD HE EXPECT YOU TO TRASH & FLAME GOOD FOLKS--IN HIS NAME[not YOU!..kinder,gentler...]???----DON'T EVEN GO THERE *gee golly* -BOY--YOU KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT ONE----IT MIGHT TAKE AWHILE FOR SOME FOLKS TO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE SUCH A PIECE OF [aaggghhh!--owww!]BUT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY![edit:HOW SOON THEY FORGET!]....IF I WAS YOU I WOULDN'T THROW NAMES AROUND FOR AWHILE[edit:well,maybe mine!]....BUT YOU WILL[edit:SEE?]....I WAS RIGHT THE FIRST & SECOND TIMES HEck*,I'VE LOST COUNT--BUT YOU DO JUST THE OPPOSITE OF THE RIGHT THING...& YOU WILL AGAIN[edit:SEE?]--EIGHT MINUTES AFTER THE NEXT POST THAT YOU DON'T LIKE-"[edit:--Damn!my watch break?]-----TSK,TSK,TSK,ALL THEM CHANCES TO STAND UP & BE A MAN,?? MAN YOU WOULD GET E-MAILS FROM THRU-OUT THE KNOWN GALAXY[*or further] IN PRAISE--NOW WHAT?PEOPLE ARE GONNA WONDER WHY IN THE HEck* THEY BELIEVE ANYTHING ABOUT YOU ANYMORE!!!....EVERY CHANCE POSSIBLE...IT'S AGAINST MY CODE TO RESORT TO THE *** YOU SAID!!!EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT!!I DON'T GO OUT LOOKIN' FOR IT,sir*!--BUT SOMEHOW...IT ALWAYS FINDS ME!!!WHY,CUZ I'M A CRAZY WHATEVER[edit:you don't have to,ahem,ANSWER that one...] YOU'RE TRYIN" TO SAY???IT WOULD BE A BLANK SCREEN EVERY TIME I LOGGED ON!!I GOT MY COPY OF MY E TO YA',and YOURS-HA HA BACK to me...(doo-doo!) I TOLD YOU TO CLEAN UP YOUR[doo-doo] MESS -IN MY E-MAIL #2 BACK AT 'CHA...JOSHUA FRENCH,YOU CAN'T CLEAN UP YOUR[doo-doo] MESS HERE[unless you.."doo"..try!]...BUT YOU COULD'VE BEEN A HERO IN THE LAST BIT,EVEN SAYIN ZERO!-I WAS DONE WITH IT AT NOON!....NOW THIS?HOW SOON THEY FORGET WHAT?YOU JOSHUA FRENCH CALLED ME A *big fat fibber!*,..HERE,RIGHT HERE! LETS LOOK AT YOUR "WARRANT"--SIGNED---SEALED & DELIVERED!...BY YOUR OWN HAND!!--QUOTE-"In a private email to me from Jubilee Valence[edit:who the hell's this guy anyway?] - if I remove the threats, profanity, accusations, personal insults and attacks on my character (which were numerous and quite vile) - it seems I can almost rationalize Jubilee's[edit:..from that John Wayne picture show?] agressive hatred and anger."--end QUOTE--In every(I hope, or I'm slippin')post,I tried to be sure that "an intelligent fellow"(that...*?excludes*? you*?,..I didn't know you were that **[opposite of smart]!),would clearly see that "if I understood you correctly", then you were deserving of all insults,IF NOT,[opposite of smart-again],THEN " I " HAD MADE AN "ERROR"....DUDE[edit:"real surfers don't say...THAT! word...sigh...busted!],YOU ARE BEYOND "DESERVING OF ALL INSULTS"[edit:DUDE!]..to the Nth degree!...accusations?--only of the obvious ones,[opposite of smart, again]!...attacks on character.......what character?....profanity?I FORGET!......but you had to slip in the MAJIC WORD...threats[edit: I thought it was "abracadabra"].....threats.....so you think I'm stupid[edit:SEE?-"opposite of smart!"] enough...or better yet,[**] boy,[that]you're "immeasurably"anything,-to where I'm going to threaten you...for what[?],now yer sayin' I wanna beat up a little [owww!-yickyyy!] like you? to risk jail[NOW THAT IS PROFANITY!--SORRY!] or whatever,or maybe you think everybody else is scared of ya ,man,I'm confused :? but go ahead French,try to [?!?] some more,to all these new folksTHEY FORGET ALREADY!!....by the way,*sir*,who[m] do I hate;this,-- in my aggressive. immeasurable,.....B.[of]S! ONE MORE THING JOSHUA FRENCH.DON'T FORGET.....YOU WERE *councelled;APPARENTLY YOU DONT LIKE BEING *councelled;I'll venture to guess that if you would have done the right thing,yeah,I know,it not fun-bein'[councelled]-that that would be "IMMEASURABLY" preferable to what you get behind this door![EDIT!.....DOOR # 1! LOLOLOL]My code is inflexable;my creed is the same-to finality-let me know when you've had enough-cuz you've[maybe....?] just insulted EVERYTHING I stand for;apologize,simply--PUBLICLY;not another word can be said if you do the right thing-all tuff talk aside-I can't refuse an honest apology,good luck,*[kind sir,good buddy ol' pal!!!]! :DI FORGET!

[Jubilee Valence]

Subj: I aint hard ta find;always respond in kind...GUITARS...............JUBI
Date: 3/24/2005 5:16:46 AM US Mountain Standard Time
From: Snoshoesvet
To: jfrench@frenchguitars.com



I was impressed when I read your site--LOVE the tornavoz;Too bad that I'm so good at readin' between the lines,your comments to & about Pepe were not mere chastisement,your psyche's showin' & it's weak;or better for your interpretation, out of balance.One good man can correct one good man & you'll have two good men.Two vein, superfluous men can only spread as much trash as they can whip up in their feeding frenzy.You've still got the one good man,but he's endured an unnecessary amount of trash from trash.I suggest we carry this filth up to the level that you claim in your delusional mind to champion for.Is Sr. Romanillos alive?I'm sure he would feel most proud in your technical prowess shown in rescueing his & that of Sr. Torres good names.I don't have time to play games,but if you insist,you will not,I repeat,YOU WILL NOT, further trash anyone unanswered;it is a losing battle in which your friend has pulled you into.I do not build guitars.I do not get invited to trendy parties.I do not trash people for honest mistakes,nor will I allow it on my watch.He explained in his mannor repeatedly,DISCREETLY,how "perhaps" his "acknowledged" error "may have happened".In this I have a better perspective in understanding his "ways".In this he has shown that he is better equipped to discuss sensitive issues to a satisfactory end in public,than you could ever hope to do;he tried repeatedly but was refused; he was flamed; he was also personally attacked w/ the snipe,snippet,no--backstab & not even in context with your alleged "cover" complaint remarks reg: Brune...Obviously you haven't read my post yet-sleepin'-I sometimes am forced to keep odd hours-not an insult....I suggest Mr.French,that you read my post ALOUD IF NECESSARY,& see if you can understand it. Are you an American?Have you heard "2 wrongs don't make a right"?.....You ****ed up,you're human.Be a man & do the right thing,or you can, as your friend chose to do UNWISELY, mock me & further insult everyone in "crying out for support"...in the end you'll stand alone to answer to me: why?what did it accomplish?what can you do ?& WHY DIDN'T YOU DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE? I am bound by the code Mr.French,those who truly know me,know this.You do not know me,you do not know the code;strange though...as yet you claim to be-yes!-somewhat of an expert of history....history...."History is as old as my grandfather" is a famous quote,& is dead-on accurate...If you're an expert on history Mr.French,then you DO know who and what I am,why I am & why that it's not possible for me to relent in the pursuit and elimination of such a vein and ignomonious endeaver as yours with it's equally disingenuous purported purposes!...opposite timetables of sorts...I suppose I'll hear from you this evening;....consider;...."Bushido", Joshua is not something that you'll learn from a book,movie,the guy in special forces(but he'll be the more complete..) or any of that!;...liken it's comprehension to perhaps that of the same in your quest of the mysteries of Sr. Torres....know ye this;You have been presented opportunity to "save face" ,as well I suppose as of that of your friend...liken the opportunity to that of the determinate rate of the setting of the sun;in each case,different but certain;as on the mountain tops-'"so";as in the deeper valleys-"so";as with your decision to end this charade of yours & move on to more profitable enterprise-"so"-or not....I am the certainty-"so".In this I am bound by immovable aspects of my character;from my "clan";from birth...ah...so...... Jubi /Snowshoes/Philip

[Faya]

Ahhhhhhhhhh...........,Yesssssssssss.............!
The Bushido Code!!!!!

In the words of my bro.........,"Zen is for Men!!!"

8)

[Tomas-Lobos]

As a new member I have followed this thread with great interest. Jubi, you are truly an intellectual. Pepe, you are no doubt a master craftsman...an artist! French, you are obviously a truth seeker. Enough has been said. Admin, please kill this thread. I'm going to go practice Capricho Arabe!! :lol:

[Faya]

From my understanding..........., and from what my good friend has told me,(Who's a skilled Luthier.), Braz. Rosewood is a much better fretboard material, especially for Flamenco guitars.

But ..............., then again to each their own......................... :|

[Faya]

............come to think of it............., i wonder what Honduran Rosewood would be like as a fretboard ????????? That stuff REALLY RINGS.

[Jubilee Valence]

As a new member I have followed this thread with great interest. Jubi, you are truly an intellectual. Pepe, you are no doubt a master craftsman...an artist! French, you are obviously a truth seeker. Enough has been said. Admin, please kill this thread. I'm going to go practice Capricho Arabe!! :lol:...heavens knows!,I've tried!! :mrgreen: LOLOL...............JFRANCIS!!!....sorry,...been kinda"busy"....Here!...try this on-- :twisted:--"one size fits all"...remember,now...a "wise master" & true example of the "bushido",has advised thus--"Zen is for Men"!---Thank you,maestro Felego! --:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:..... :twisted: :?:......duty calls must run!