Cedar or spruce?

[frank]

I'm sure that this has been addressed 100 times, but I was wondering: For all around versatility which top cedar or spruce do you prefer?

[daniel711]

I prefer cedar....but how does that help YOU? :?

[deAlmeida]

for all around versatility? I would have to say spruce. Easily. Spruce (specifically European a.ka. German spruce) is generally regarded to be the best tonewood available today and many years ago. It is the preferred wood of instrument makers throughout time. Cedar has only been gaining use for about 40 years. Spruce will also last a lot longer than cedar. In terms of sound, that is really going to be up to the player.. it is a matter of preference. But if you are asking about versatility or sheer tone production, spruce is the way to go.

[Pete]

A lot of makers offer either cedar or spruce, but do certain makers do better with one or the other? For, example, is a spruce top Ramirez 1A better than a cedar top, or can any conclusions like this be drawn?

[Travis_Warner]

I've always prefered a nice, canadian cedar top, I think it give my guitar a warmer tone when i play romantic era songs. Spruce, in my opinion, has a "poppier" sound, more bright, and best suited for the boroque period pieces. However, I can't afford 2 guitars :roll: , and cedar and spruce can play all styles very well. I just like cedar...

[Pepe Vergara]

I like and use both. I prefer cedar if I have to. Because of the close structure of the wood fibers, cedar is less succeptible to humidity changes. It also develop faster (once the guitar is done, it is ready to go).

[Roberta]

Get a cedar top guitar

I actually prefer the sound of spruce for fine classic guitars but few manufacturers use high quality spruce. Most spruce trees grow with a twist and produce inferior tone-wood. This poor quality spruce is what you'll find in most factory made guitars.

Western Red Cedar trees on the other hand are very straight growing and rarely have much twist. The vast majority of the cedar used in the guitar industry is of a high quality. That's why I recommend cedar over spruce.

The spruce I use to build my classical guitars is acoustically superior. It comes from straight growing trees which I have harvested and processed myself. Here is a link to an article published by The Guild of American Luthiers about my spruce company — The Sante Fe Spruce Company. I no longer operate the company but I do have a lifetime supply of wood.

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[Pepe Vergara]

We have to be careful to distinguish between truth and advertisement. Factory guitars not necesarily use the worst spruce. I have witnessed meetings between the purchase person of a big manufacturer (for example, Martin) negotiating with the Canadian or Alaskan dealer of spruce. Those companies will not take less than the best. Maybe we are talking factories in China, Mexico, or in some other places so obscures that the manufacturer does not want to say where the plant is. There is indeed a quality in German Spruce that it is hard to match.

[Miguel Angel]

Of my 3 guitars 2 have spruce tops, and one cedar. I think it is a matter of taste, an excellent guitar will come with either top, and viceversa. Cedar being mellower, warmer and the sound comes straight to you is my favorite for romantic music, modern baladas,and latin boleros. Spruce sound is deeper to me and goes around you will fit more to classical music. I think is to soon to say that spruce will last longer than cedar, for this last wood has been in use for guitar tops for only 40 years, and spruce tops have been around for hundreds of years. :) 8)

[deAlmeida]

I think is to soon to say that spruce will last longer than cedar, for this last wood has been in use for guitar tops for only 40 years, and spruce tops have been around for hundreds of years. :) 8)

no, I meant that the wood literally lasts longer. the spruce has a longer lifespan than cedar. :)

[Pepe Vergara]

I think is to soon to say that spruce will last longer than cedar, for this last wood has been in use for guitar tops for only 40 years, and spruce tops have been around for hundreds of years. :) 8)

no, I meant that the wood literally lasts longer. the spruce has a longer lifespan than cedar. :)

If you treat them well, they will both last beyond your grandchildren. I suppose you do not want them for your greatgreatgreat children to keep as a collector's item. If you want them for your playing, I am sure they will last beyond your life time, so what difference does it make?

I personally want my guitars bein discussed in forums in the year 2250. Again, that is a luthiers point of view. Unless you are Dorian Gray, you would not be playing around 2250 :)

[Miguel Angel]

:? The true story is that everybody keeps saying that a spruce top will last longer than a cedar, but freinds there is no way to prove this theory with only 40 years of building guitars with cedar tops. We will have to wait a................long time before we can say that for sure. We just hope to be around!!!!!! :roll: :?:

[MWA]

"no, I meant that the wood literally lasts longer. the spruce has a longer lifespan than cedar."

Did you mean the spruce tree lives longer than the cedar or spruce lumber lasts longer? I thought you were referring to the tree in natural state.

I have heard that spruce top guitars retain their sound better over time than cedar, but I have a 1978 Ramirez 1a that still sounds excellent. Also I don't see vintage cedar top guitars selling for less than Spruce models. Its funny that I was hearing of the short life span of cedar tops in the mid "70s when the guitars made with this wood were 10-15 yrs old. However, to the best of my knowledge, the shops are not full of dead guitars from the 70's. Quite the contrary, you are likely to spend 5-10 times the original purchase price for a (quality) guitar from this era. I suspect that other things such as how the guitar is maintained over its life and how it was initially built have as much or more effect on the life span of a guitar than the wood itself. Could it be that the theory of short lived cedar top guitars is just another urban old wife's tale?

[Miguel Angel]

Yep MWA, you nailed this issue "it is another urban old wife tale", there are other factors that contribute to the durability of a guitar: maintenance, use, playing styles, storage, etc. There is no evidence whatsoever that can prove that a spruce top lasts longer than cedar. If we are talking of the trees, both cedar & spruce have to be many hundreds of years old so their woods can be used to make guitar tops. :!:

[Jubilee Valence]

Miguel,..ay chi!...the "tree lovers" are everywhere!If they get their way,we'll all be playing govt. approved Rainsongs, & :shock:we'll all be...."investigated"...by....... :wink: --sshhh-- :wink: you know who....wanting to see....certificates.. :roll: ay chi....our now collectable R's & A's et al, will soon become valuable collectables :idea: ....how old'd you say them trees were? :twisted:

[Travis_Warner]

has anybody ever played a rainsong??? are they any good?

[Stefan*]

I have several different guitars with both spruce and cedar.

I've read that the Spruce top should be 'brighter' and sound better as it ages, while the cedar top should be 'warmer' and won't really get much better with age. What you get when it's new is how a cedar top guitar pretty much stays.

So that's the theory ... now in practice ... I have spruce top guitars (10-40 years old) that sound warmer than newer cedar top guitars and cedar top guitars that are quite bright. Strings and bracing and wood quality and playing style all come into play. Given the same bracing, player and strings ... I still think you can get warmer spruce tops than cedar given the 'right' wood. Its' all a question of the wood used.

I think what the one fellow said is true ... cedar has more uniformity so you're likely to get a decent one. With spruce you may have to hunt for the good wood in the guitar.

If it was me, I'd look for a 10-20 year old guitar and just find one that you like the sound of for the kind of music you play. (Or buy one guitar for each style :) )

There's also the cosmetic question of whether you prefer the reddish front or a more blonde look.

Stefan

[hiracer]

If you check to see what the best players in the world use, you will find that both woods are used, I think that is a clear indication that it's an entirely subjective determination.

The type of sounboard oversimplifies many things too. Kind of like asking, which makes a better wife, a brunette or a blonde?

[Pepe Vergara]

If you check to see what the best players in the world use, you will find that both woods are used, I think that is a clear indication that it's an entirely subjective determination.

The type of sounboard oversimplifies many things too. Kind of like asking, which makes a better wife, a brunette or a blonde?

Is that a good reason to get two wives? What about the redhair ones?

[daniel711]

Hiracer - Great analogy :lol: That sums it up perfectly :!:

[GSI Fan]

I suspect that other things such as how the guitar is maintained over its life and how it was initially built have as much or more effect on the life span of a guitar than the wood itself.

MWA, I agree. The only thing I would change would be to leave out "as much".

Look beyond the world of wood instruments and the same principle applies to anything made of wood. The quality of the makers work and the care the finished product received creates beautiful antiques.

I'm sure the luthiers out there will want to chime in on this example.

Take a pillet of the oldest most stable and expensive wood - cedar, spruce, whatever - and put it in the hands of a hack. Now take scrap - basically cheap stuff - and put it in the hands of a talented luthier. Who do you think will make the better, longer lasting and beautiful instrument?

Just a thought. To answer the original question, I have both. I prefer my cedar top mainly because my ear loves warmth. Change that, I prefer my spuce because my ear loves warmth. That's strange, I guess I can't decide!

[Miguel Angel]

Many members of this forum have expressed their preferences bettween cedar & spruce tops. At least cedar that is not a true cedar, and is really a cypress is only one species, but with spruce you have German, European, Englemann, Sitka, and even the Japanese Hokadio Spruce. All these spruces have different qualities, and can also produce a difference in sound. It is said that German spruce is now very rare and that many suppliers sell Englemann saying that is German or European. Even the one called European is a variation of the German species and come from different countries such as Romania & Russia. Do spruce fans consider all these factors? Is there a difference bettween all these species of spruce? I would like to hear opinions of this. :? 8) :roll: :?:

[Pepe Vergara]

..... At least cedar that is not a true cedar, and is really a cypress is only one species, .............. I would like to hear opinions of this. :? 8) :roll: :?:

Michelangelo: Can you expand on this please?

[Armando]

Hello Miguel Angel

To my opinion the whole thing with german spruce is just a marketing trick. Spruce sold as german spruce is most likely not from germany. Nowadays it comes mostly out of former Jugoslavia, Romania and Ukraine. Whether this spruce is better or worst than spruce that comes from germany is a matter of ongoing dispute. I have no experience with spruce from eastern europe because i use to buy my spruce in Switzerland and Italy. This two spruces have different propperties regarding its visual, phisical and tonal aspects.
However, we are talking about small differencies which have an influnce on the final sound of the instrument but not to a large extend. There is good and bad spruce wherever you buy it. Last year i went to Milano in Italy to select personally the best sprucetops from an îtalian supplier who sells the famous "fiemme spruce". I have noticed big differencies between different sprucetops even within the same quality grading.
If the guitar itself is well built, it doesn't really matter where the spruce comes from. An excellent luthier is able to built a guitar made of inferior tonewoods that sounds better than a guitar built by a unexperienced luthier using top quality materials.

regards

Armando

[C. Vega]

The term "German spruce" is a misnomer.
Virtually none of the spruce marketed under this name actually comes from Germany and hasn't for many years. The wood dealers are there but not the wood, at least not the stuff of musical instrument quality.
The European spruce most commonly used in the lutherie trade is Picea abies (aka Picea excelsa) which grows over a wide range in Europe. The country of origin means very little. No matter where it comes from it's all the same species. The trees don't care about political boundaries.

Take a look at Paul Hostetter's informative website for a revealing look at the European spruce trade.
www.lutherie.net


And as has been stated, the Western red cedar, Thuja plicata, that's used for soundboards is not a true cedar. It is more closely related to the cypresses and junipers.
The so-called "Spanish cedar", Cedrela odorata or Cedrela fissilis, is not a true cedar either. Botanically speaking, the true cedars are of the genus Cedrus.

[Armando]

"No matter where it comes from it's all the same species. The trees don't care about political boundaries."

Yes, that's correct, trees don't care in which country they grow, but they care about climatical eposure and altitude. It is widely accepted by luthiers, that the best spruce grows in an alpine climate on altitudes between 1200 and 1700 meters above seelevel. The colder the temperatures and the longer the wintertime, the slower the wood grows. This conditions will make the tree growing slow and this produces finegrained spruce which is desired for the luthery. Where ever spruce grows under such conditions it's likely that there is wood that qualifies to be sold as tonewood.

Armando

[C. Vega]

Agreed, but those growing conditions exist in numerous locales in Europe.

There's a lot of smoke and mirrors in the wood business just as there is in the guitar trade in general. Marketing hype abounds.
In the real world, does anyone really believe that one could identify the source of a particular piece of spruce based on the sound of a finished guitar? Methinks not. And in a blind listening evaluation of several instruments, many would probably be hard pressed to consistently distinguish spruce from cedar.

There are just too many other variables that make a good guitar what it is and the specific species of woods used and where they came from is only a small part of the equation.
So often one hears things like "Spruce sounds like....." or "Cedar sounds like..... or "Brazilian rosewood sounds like.....". Total horsehockey.
The sound of an instrument has more to do with it's design and execution and the skill of the maker than with the woods used in its construction.
Take, for example, a well made older guitar of the Madrid school made from spruce and Brazilian rosewood with a big body, long scale, etc. and compare it to a typical Granada school guitar made of the same woods but with a smaller body, lighter overall construction, etc. Very different animals.

A good soundboard is a good soundboard no matter where it came from or what species it is. Each piece has to be judged on its individual merits and not on where it supposedly grew or any fanciful stories attached to it. There's plently of both good and not so good "tonewood" out there.

[Miguel Angel]

Hi Pepe
I think that C. Vega answered correctly your question. Western Red Cedar also called Canadian Cedar is not a true cedar, but a cypress. Its scientific name Thuja Plicata, and it only grows in Western Canada & US, and as far as I know there are no other varieties. True cedars (Cedrus) are not native to America, they come from the Mediterranean region & India: Atlantic Cedar, Atlas Cedar (North Africa), Lebanese, Deodar (India).
Western Red Cedar has been called cedar because its odor resembles the one of true cedars. The same happens with the one named Honduras cedar, that is not even a conifer, but a decidous tree that grows all over the tropical regions of America, and is really a relative of the mahogany species.
Pines, spruces, cedars, cypress, junipers, etc. all belong to the conifers, and that is all that they have in common.

[Armando]

Hello Miguel Angel

There is another north american species which also doesn't belongs to the true cedar family. The wood in question is Port Orford Cedar or Oxford Cedar. This wood is native to Oregon and belongs also to the cypress family. This species seems to be a good tonewood.

I have in mind to get some of it for a trial.

Has anybody experience with this wood species?

[Miguel Angel]

Hi Armando
Very interesting that of the Oxford Cedar. First time I ever hear about it.
I hope you can be sucessfull with your trial with this tonewood, it would be a great contribution to guitar making. Keep us informed. :D :D :D :D

[hiracer]

[quoteIs that a good reason to get two wives? What about the redhair ones?[/quote]

OK, three wives. I'm not afraid. You go first. :shock:

-John

[jdschoe@juno.com]

Armando,

For Port Orford cedar, a good source is Oregon's Les Stansell. (www.stansellguitars.com). He builds guitars and he also harvest Port Orford cedar for tops for other luthiers. And if you want to try any other timber native to Oregon such as Oregon myrtle for back/sides, he's your man for that too.

Hope you will have a chance to try some.

[Armando]

Hello jdschoe@juno.com

Thanks for the hint. I know stansellguitars.com already and it will be the place where i order the PO cedar.

I consider PO cedar suited for the backs and sides rather than for a top. I still believe in euro spruce to be best suited for flamenco guitar tops.

regards

Armando

[daniel711]

Adrian Lucas uses Port Orford cedar for his tops. Check out this review at www.newmillguitar.com.

[Miguel Angel]

In Luthiers Mercantile International www.lmii.com they are selling Port Orford Cedar tops for guitars. :wink:

[timbo71]

8) Hey, Check out the page on my website, www.guitarria.com (under guitars/tonewoods). You'll find some info. on the two commonly used classical guitar top woods here.

[sseow]

i ever see an italian guitar with combined spruce and cedar top. not sure why they make this way...? the best of both world..?
but there is a saying about spruce and cedar...
spruce: it is for young guitarists who have plenty of time to practice and open up the sound of the guitar
cedar: it is for oldest guitarists (or concert guitarist) who don't have the time to play-in the guitar to open it sound. they will prefer to get a cedar with fast open up of sound.
... just share some thought...
seow
singapore

[dennis]

sseow,

Are those the Tacchi guitars you are refering too? I've seen some phots, but never heard one yet, did you get a chance to hear them? If so, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on them.

[sseow]

dennis... u r right... it is tacchi. since the guitar is featured on a competing web site, i will not show the link here .... but u can try this for some of the sound clip on tacchi...
http://www.guitarnation.com/tacchiclassical1.htm
:lol:
but tat strange combined cedar and spruce top tacchi is somehow over priced!
seow
singapore