Who's RH is playing?

[JoeAlders]

A few days ago I bought some cd’s with classical guitar music on it, played by very talented young guitarist who’s name I had never heard of.
After listening to all of them (only a few pieces for each player) I realized that they all played beautifully but their RH “tone colour” was (at least according to my humble ears) almost the same and I was not able to predict who was playing when I, without looking at the label, again put a cd into my player and listened.
When I was a young man (around the mid 60s of the 20th century), I owned a few vinyl records (cd- was introduced “ages” later) of famous guitarists like Andres Segovia, Julian Bream, Alirio Diaz and Narciso Yepes. At that time I could distinguish without hesitation who was playing because of the distinct “tone colour” their RH was producing. Also at that time a classical guitarist was very seldom heart via the radio and when it happened, I could guess who was playing because on such an occasion I “recognized” the RH of the guitarist (Segovia, Bream etc.).
Nowadays, classical guitarists are more frequently heart via (classical) radio (at least here in Western-Europe) and most of the time, although they all have beautiful RH tone production, it is impossible for me to say which guitarist is playing because their tone production sounds almost identical (at least to my humble ears ). Is this due to perhaps the same excellent education on technique guitarists are receiving at the music academies all over the world?
What has the Forum for an opinion, am I (partially) right or (completely) wrong?
Joe.

[JoeAlders]

Dear forum,
Nobody seems to want to respond on my start of a new thread. Did I do something wrong?
Joe.

[edwardcav]

hi joe

i think as the maturity of the guitar expands due to a growing repertoire and the standard of players in general gets better, PERFECT RH tone production is completely necessary.

I think this allows players (there are more these days, too) to be seperated aurally by musicality, interpretation and imagination - not necessarily a specific tone - be that generated from a speceifc guitar or RH tone.

doesn't answer anything, but i felt sorry for you. no one replied. thered e more people out there with more experience in life and more records than me that will have more worthwhile comments.

8)

[JoeAlders]

Hello Edward,

Thank you for your kind response. Of course, perfect RH tone production is absolutely necessary for a classical guitarist who wants to be a professional performer and standards are very high these days and this I think, will be taught at the musical academy. But I find it a little bit of a mystery that their sound production is almost the same, realizing that this largely depends on the physical properties of their RH and I cannot believe their RH's are (almost)exactly the same. The cd 's of these guitarists I bought, yes, they had different musically interpretations of f.i. a Spanish Dance from Granados but they played it with (almost) the same tone colour.
Anyway thanks again for your response.
Joe.

[edwardcav]

do you think a variation of tone colour is as important as individual musical phrasing / interpretation ? I personally do not, but I'm nt sure if you do. In fact, I never really regarded tone colour on the guitar to be an absolutely essential factor - sort of like the variatio of tone colour being the icing on a cake; you can wipe it on thick or thin but it will still just be the icing.

Technical foundation and musicality will always be the two main ingredients of my cake.

what about yours

[JoeAlders]

Edward,

"Individual musical phrasing/interpretation" is of course all important when performing a piece of music but: Yes, I find the tone colour also an important factor. It is like a personal touch or signature you are adding as a musician to the music you are playing. I am under the impression that the young guitarists today are copying each others tone colour because they think that, in order to be a good performer, they have to sound like that. This results, according to my taste of course, in a clean and almost sterile (forgive me this expression please!) tone without any character.
I have the cd "Together", where the great guitarists Bream and Williams are playing pieces for two guitars and without any hesitation I can distinguish when Bream or Williams is playing due to their personal touch(=tone colour). And this is apart from their interpretation of the music.
Joe.

[edwardcav]

theres no denying you have a point; one worthy for discussion at that.

its interesting. however, i don't think its a bad thin. i think its the maturity of the instrument coming of age.

[Todd]

You're absolutely dead on right. They DO all sound the same.

Nice to see somebody with the balls to tell the truth.

Ed says this is coming of age!! For everbody to sound
exactly the same? Please tell me you're kidding.

Man, i do love classical music, but the classical community
is just so full of ****, its hard to bare sometimes. :roll:



TK

[Jubilee Valence]

You're absolutely dead on right. They DO all sound the same.

Nice to see somebody with the balls to tell the truth.

Ed says this is coming of age!! For everbody to sound
exactly the same? Please tell me you're kidding.

Man, i do love classical music, but the classical community
is just so full of s**t, its hard to bare sometimes. :roll:



TK :lol: :lol: ......bearTK! :lol: :lol: --bear! :lol: :lol: .....careful "boss"--we got us some "S.N.'s" (s*bject n*zis...)now---they "call ADMIN"--at the slightest infraction!-btw "Joe" got mad at me 'cuz I'm so "dumb"! :oops: ........he went home.... :cry: & took his "ball"(guitar?..) :arrow: add: & ya' can't say my "sound" ain't "unique" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ....like every time I "play"!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Hucbald]

I guess that right hand technique has been more formally standarized, so there are less variations of "acceptable" positions and tones now. But then, I'm probably the last person who should opine about technique.

Hucbald

[Jubilee Valence]

....there are less variations of "acceptable" positions and tones now...... Hucbald 8) :arrow: ....and then the "one" particularly "unique" style..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[daniel711]

Posted by Todd:
Man, i do love classical music, but the classical community
is just so full of s**t, its hard to bare sometimes.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious - the only thing that's BARE is Todd's intellect :lol: :lol:

Learn English before you become a music critic, pal :wink:

[Libre]

Well, for one thing, I don't think they DO all sound the same. But if they sound more similar than the players of old, it may be due to several reasons - uniformity of recording techniques (as well as right hand technique), and a narrower range of what is considered, "acceptable". I don't think Segovia's playing would make it today - too erratic, and too innaccurate. His sound, although lush, was marred (in my view) by his often whacky interpretations. The players of old are also hampered by excessive effects (like they couldn't get enough of that new-fangled "revervb" into the mix). Breams recorded sound seems artificial to me. Paul Galbraith's Bach recordings tower above them - both in pure sound, and in phrasing and interpretation. So we're getting better, not worse. At least Paul is.
That's what I think.

[Jubilee Valence]

Posted by Todd:
Man, i do love classical music, but the classical community
is just so full of s**t, its hard to bare sometimes.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious - the only thing that's BARE is Todd's intellect :lol: :lol:

Learn English before you become a music critic, pal :wink: :arrow: pppsstt!!--Hey! Dan-O!!!...ppppsstt!!--that could be considered a :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ...."hate" crime :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ...you know--down in the DEEP south.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ....careful!! :lol: :lol: :lol: ...they.... :lol: ....might.... :lol: :lol: ....give 'ya the.... :lol: :lol: :lol: ...KEY TO TH' CITY!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:....oh-shee-ittt!!---you KILL ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :wink: :arrow: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[daniel711]

Ahhh, Jubi, did I hear my name?? Hate crime?? Naahhh.....He's not in the DEEEEP south (Maryland I think) - In fact, he ain't DEEP anything :wink: :twisted: (Todd that is)

http://www.draconian.com/artwork/clipart/orientalnote.gif

[Todd]

OK , so were even.

I cant spell, and none of you can play guitar.

I'm glad thats settled. :)
TK

[Libre]

OK , so were even.

I cant spell, and none of you can play guitar.

I'm glad thats settled. :)
TK

It should be: we're, can't, and that's.
You spelled I right though!

[Libre]

double post

[Hucbald]

OK , so were even.

I cant spell, and none of you can play guitar.

I'm glad thats settled. :)
TK

It's we're, can't, and that's.
You spelled I right though!

Todd has violated The First Rule of Holes.

The First Rule of Holes: As soon as you reaize you are in a hole, stop digging.

Hucbald

[Libre]

That's a little like:
"When you're up to your eyeballs in s**t, you keep your mouth closed".
R.A. Heinlin

[GSI Fan]

How about...
"Don't just let them s**t all over you, open your mouth."
Unknown

[Faya]

OK , so were even.

I cant spell, and none of you can play guitar.

I'm glad thats settled. :)
TK

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: ...................well ................i sure hope that was a joke :!: :!: :!: ...................... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
..............for someone who hates guitar competitions that sure sounds pretty competitive....................not to mention just plain CHILDISH & RUDE!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: ...................

[JoeAlders]

A poet once said:
" The language is the vehicle of the mind...".
At the start of this thread I wrote:
"I realized that they all played beautifully but their RH “tone colour” was (at least according to my humble ears) almost the same and I was not able to predict who was playing when I, without looking at the label, again put a cd into my player and listened."I played these cd's again and realized that it would be quite a coincidence that those performers are all playing on, for instance, a Ramirez 1A. That could be one reason why their tone production sound so similar to my ears. And because this is almost quite certainly not the case, I examined the text of the booklets accompanying these cd' s but except for one guitarist, I could not find any information regarding the luthier who made the instrument on which that particular guitarist was playing.
If they are playing on guitars made by different Luthiers (which, I am convinced, is almost certainly the case) why can't I hear at least that difference? But, let me one thing
again make clear : They, without exception, are top players no doubt about it!! But …..

Todd!, Thank you very much with your encouraging statement :
“Nice to see somebody with the balls to tell the truth.” !! At least I have somebody in this
(guitar)world who, I think, understand my point.

Libre wrote:
"I don't think Segovia's playing would make it today - too erratic, and too inaccurate."
You may be right Libre ( although I do NOT agree ) but I can recognize him by his tone production and that is the point why I started this thread. And this, regardless the guitar which he was playing on, because during his life he played on guitars made by different luthiers.
Perhaps the secret is lying in what you also wrote: "uniformity of recording techniques". The recording technician tries perhaps to "colour" the recorded sound in a way to please what this generation of listeners wants to hear : A nice round sound?
I hope not to bring disaster over my poor head by suggesting this last thing.


Joe.

[Hucbald]

A nice round sound?
I hope not to bring disaster over my poor head by suggesting this last thing.
Joe.

I'm not so sure the recording engineer would have THAT much influence, but you bring up a valid point about the "nice round sound". I personally LOVE the "nice round sound" that Parkening and others get, and there is no doubt but that it's not easy to achieve, but is that the only "valid" esthetic? I don't think so, and I'm pretty radical in my own esthetic for guitar sound. I like a very bright sound, and I mean VERY bright. One of the cool things (to me) about electric nylon string is that I can get a sound that is sorta/kinda half way between a steel string and a nylon string. I suppose that the gripe about uniformity that started this thread should remind us that the pursuit of an individual "voice" on the instrument probably ought to trump the desire to sound just like this guitar hero or the other.

Hucbald

[jay]

Posted by Todd:
Man, i do love classical music, but the classical community
is just so full of s**t, its hard to bare sometimes.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious - the only thing that's BARE is Todd's intellect :lol: :lol:

Learn English before you become a music critic, pal :wink:

i'll have to agree with todd
the above comment shows exactly what he means by full of sh*t
do you get paid for being an a**hole Daniel or is it just your hobby?

[a333a]

You're absolutely dead on right. They DO all sound the same.

Nice to see somebody with the balls to tell the truth.

Ed says this is coming of age!! For everbody to sound
exactly the same? Please tell me you're kidding.

Man, i do love classical music, but the classical community
is just so full of s**t, its hard to bare sometimes. :roll:

TK

Well I guess the flamenco comunnity is full of elegance

[edwardcav]

todd i find your bagging of my opinion to be quite upsetting

if there's one thing thats consistently brought up in this forum is that people are entitled to their own opinions, and you are too. since no one was replying to the thread i thought i might have a stab as to why the RH technique is "sounding the same"

personally, i don't think it is at all. you just have to listen close to get the variation between players.

why don't you take your snotty contributions to your own trendy forum todd. bag the "classical community" there all you want with your own little cult following.

and hows that plectrum-technique going? can't wait for your dvd. insisent bagging of the "classical community" will eliminate a portion of your target market, you understand.

just my opinion of course.

[Hucbald]

todd i find your bagging of my opinion to be quite upsetting

if there's one thing thats consistently brought up in this forum is that people are entitled to their own opinions, and you are too. since no one was replying to the thread i thought i might have a stab as to why the RH technique is "sounding the same"

personally, i don't think it is at all. you just have to listen close to get the variation between players.

why don't you take your snotty contributions to your own trendy forum todd. bag the "classical community" there all you want with your own little cult following.

and hows that plectrum-technique going? can't wait for your dvd. insisent bagging of the "classical community" will eliminate a portion of your target market, you understand.

just my opinion of course.

Look, I for one don't think your opinion should be "bagged". Quite the contrary. I have strong opinions that have been formed by my experiences over the course of many years. I mean, I could probably start a tempest in a teapot here with some of them, because I'm pretty much of an iconoclast.

I think the original point was valid because the "conventional wisdom" of modern classical guitar opinion leaves too little room for dissent or variation. IMO, a guy should be free to pursue his artistic vision without fear that some second rate dill-bucket is going to get his lace panties in a wad (cough... Ad@% H0^*#@#... cough) just because your particular vision and conception is "out of the mainstream".

It would be more productive - and more conducive to the advancement of the status of the instrument we all ostensibly love - if we all could all take a deeeeeeeeep breath, step back a pace or two, and try to understand where the other guy is coming from and what he is trying to get across.

NONE of you could POSSIBLY believe the resistance I get from "my brothers" because I play an electric nylon string guitar versus an acoustic and use things like delay, detune chorus, phase shifting, flanging, comb filters, echo, and the like. Seriously. You would think I raped some of these guys' sisters.

As Popeye would say, "I am what I am". Interestingly (At least to me), God's response was, "I Am That Which I Am". Sorry, but I can relate to that.

Instead of teaching our students to discount every heartfelt performance because the player happend to - God forbid - repeat a finger or two in the right hand or whatever, perhaps we should get back to what it was that drew us to the guitar in the first place: The unequalled musicality and intimacy of the idiom and the deep level at which we can MUSICALLY COMMUNICATE through it.

I for one think that most classical guitarists are stick-in-the-mud dip-weeds with closed minds who delight in nothing more than criticism. Remember, nobody ever erected a monument to a critic.

Where, exactly, is the "turf" that you are defending? Do you discount Segovia because his interpretations were overly Romanticised? Is it the roughness of his right hand that you object to? Is Parkening to be rejected as (Cough... A*@& H@!*^@^... cough) would argue because he was a "chip off the old block"? Where does this end? Do we tear down all of our predecessors just because of their place in musical history? Or, do we rather accept their contributions as valid on their face because... well.. they made their contributions at the time that they made them?

If you close your mind to the past, and only accept the conventions of the present, guess what? You are going to reject the innovations of YOUR time and music history will unfold beneath your very nose, and you'll be blind to all of it.

Hucbald

[Libre]

Brevity is the soul of wit.

I don't think they do sound the same.