The "nut" saga continues

[DWPC]

After my attempt to make new bone nut failed, I took my guitar to a luthier at a well-established local music shop who had been recommended to me. He's a flamenco player, and makes a few guitars. I figured he could handle an action adjustment OK. When I got the guitar back, the upper action is indeed much better, but there's now a very apparent buzz in the saddle, and both the high and low E's now sound very dull. I don't know whether to take it back or just bite the bullet and take it 80 miles to LA. Oh yeah...he charged $50 to add the buzz. Very aggravating.

[ykabban]

AS for the dull sounding strings, removing or tuning down all the strings (which has to be done to adjust action), will cause any guitar to lose sonority. This will take time to recover. As for the buzz, well.... it's very difficult to pinpoint the root cause of a buzz. I have a personal process of elimination (to find buzzing root causes) that is too difficult and lengthy to describe. Sometimes buzzing is internal, despite what you might hear on the guitar superficially. If your guitar is worth the effort, I would take it to someone more experienced.

[DWPC]

AS for the dull sounding strings, removing or tuning down all the strings (which has to be done to adjust action), will cause any guitar to lose sonority. This will take time to recover.

The other strings sound fine, and the low E problem is when played open; sounds fine when fretted. There was no buzz before the trip to the shop.

[jeremy]

This is turning into a bit of a saga for you.

To check out if the E string is the culprit, or the nut slot, the following may help.
- Slide your finger under the A string and lift it out of the nut slot and move it over to the D string. Leave both the A & D strings there together in that D slot. Now do the same for the E string, but put it in the now vacant nut slot for the A string.

Provided the A string played and sounded Ok in its own right, moving the E string across temporarily will allow you to determine if the string or the nut is at fault. If the E string now sounds Ok in the A string slot, then the nut slot for the E string is at fault. If so, you can re file the nut slot for the E string so it is properly ramped and the height correct. If it is too low, you can build it up with bone dust and super glue.

Moving the strings like this temporarily will not hurt the guitar, the change in tension is minimal, and you are only doing it to test the "Open" poistion of the E string in the A string slot. Just move the strings back when finished. It is not necessary to detune when doing this, as long as your fingers are strong enough!

Flamenco players tend to like their guitars setup a bit lower, and the odd buzz is fine by them.

When you fix the nut problem, then you can tackle the buzz.
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[edwardcav]

jeremy check it out

http://forum.guitarsalon.com/viewtopic.php?t=1677&start=40

ed

[jeremy]

Hello Edward,
Sorry I do not know David Argent or his guitars. I know Jim Redgate and John Price but that is the extent of my Adelaide info. Australia has many fine luthiers. Sorry I missed your post on the other thread. I tend to only look at the "recent discussions" list on the left when I visit this site.

As for Darwin, I am not sure if I will be there on not. I have been to the Darwin Festival before, but it is not really suited for luthiers. Sadly they are overlooked at Darwin. They tend to treat luthiers like door to door vacuum cleaner salesmen.
There are a couple of good acts there this year. Wulfin Lieski from Germany is the one I would want to see. John Williams is there again so go wee him, especially if you want to see how not to conduct masterclasses and watching the students belittled and embarrased.
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[Libre]

Hello Jeremy-
I noticed your comment about J. Williams and how not to conduct a masterclass, embarassing and belittling the students. Did I get that right? I met Mr. Williams several times in the "green room" after concert performances. I found his attitude to be, how shall I say it... dour. He acted like he was doing everyone a huge honer by merely gracing us with his presence - which of course he was - but it still turned me off that he acted like that. When he extended his hand for a handshake, it seemed as though he was about as enthusiastic as if he were reaching into a cesspool. And a snake infested one, at that.
Anyway, that's how it seemed to me. We even had a brief conversation in which I complimented his performance and he responded in some sarcastic and ungracious manner. Maybe I was a google-eyed fan - I've admired his talent most of my life - but his unfriendly and caustic comments really turned me off.

[NGiorgio]

Saw Segovia perform in NYC back in the 70's. Went backstage for an autograph. He was the same as you describe Williams.

[jeremy]

Libre,
I have seen and met JW a few times and it never impoves. I do not like him, his playing (or his guitar). He is rude and insensitive to the students that are brave enough to face him at masterclasses. A few instances that stand out in my mind are -
The student finished playing and Williams says "I would like to thank you for playing, maybe next time you would like to practice - who's next" That was all he said. Another example was when the student played a very long piece and only played two movements but still it went for about 12 minutes or so, Williams said - "If you are not going to play the whole piece, then I am not going to bother to comment - who's next". The student told him at the start that he was only playing the first two movements and JW said that was Ok.

When he did choose to comment he never actually spoke about the student, the playing or the musicality. He would branch off into a monologue about various transcriptions of that particular piece, or if the piece was by Barrios, he would talk about why Segovia did not like Barrios and why he did not like Segovia, none of which was of interest to the student or the audience.
________
glass bong (http://glassbongs.org)

[Libre]

I don't get it. I've yet to meet anybody that's famous for anything, and have a pleasant experience. Strike that - I had dinner with Buddy Cage last week. He may not be a super-star, but he did play with Jerry Garcia, and was the main pedal steel player for the New Riders of the Purple Sage. Anyway, Buddy was great, if eccentric, (but what would you expect?) but very personable.
Most of the famous people I have met, all could start a mean club. JW looks always looks like he's smelling something vile, and Segovia's intolerance was legendary. I guess I haven't met enough famous folks to have a real sample (and you know how I feel about scientific rigor). But it's just my impression. Everybody that's rich and famous for playing something (whether an instrument, a sport, or a game) should have to work a REAL job every now and then so they never forget the profound truth that Pepe ends each post with.

[rumbamaster]

That's a shame to hear about JW. I've been such a big fan for so many years. But that kind of attitude turns me off completely. I guess Segovia influenced him in more ways than one.

[rdc1991]

I hear rumor that Beethoven was a bit testy too. Go figure.

Rowdy

[DWPC]

Jeremy:

I tried your suggestions and found that the new nut is indeed the culprit. The string grooves seemed quite tight compared to the original nut, so I widened the low-E groove. That dramatically improved things. I need to find a file suitable for working the depth of the groove before I experiment further.

As for players and attitudes, I attended a Parkening master class last year and CP was exceedingly approachable, sincere, and friendly towards active partcipants and those auditing.

[jeremy]

DW,
The side to side fit is not that important. What is important there is that the string is in the correct place relative to the other strings. To set the depth, press the string down in the 1st fret and measure the gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the 2nd fret. When the string is unfretted the distance between the top of the 1st fret and the string should be about the same. File your slot to get get it to the correct depth.

You can buy fret files but they are expensive. A thin metal nail file with sand paper wrapped aroung it should work ok for the bass strings and G string.
Anything thin enough and hard enough can be used to deepen the fret slot.
You can buy small triangular files that are good for major material removal in the first instance.

Keep working at it and be careful of the angle and eventually you will get there.

Most of the masterclasses I have seen have been fabulous, JW just stands out because it is so obvious he does not want to be there.
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