Tremolo question, please answer!

[Shroomy726]

Ok, i started out with rasgueados, then moved on to thumb excercises, then moved on to thumb-index exercises and then to picado with rest strokes exercises. I am pretty sure I have nailed how to all the above and even though i am not perfect at them, they will get better with time.
Now comes TREMOLO!!! By what you folks say here its pretty scary... I am studying with Oscar Herrero's 2 first DVDs. I have one question though. do you play tremolo apoyando (with rest strokes)? Because it feels very hard to do it that way. Or do you do it without rest strokes? Please someone answer since this is crucial in my flamenco progress techinque.
What do you recommend on doing next? (after i take the tremolo more comfortably). I was thinking of continuing with rasgueados (i only learned eami), and then to alzapuas and then to...?

[kys]

I am by no means any sort of authority on the matter, but rest stroke tremolo.... would be like playing asturias with a pick? .... ok bad analogy. I have never seen it done

[Zak]

Do it free stroke.

[keith]

hey kys: better get that pick. many (as in maybe the majority) tremelos in flamenco use rest strokes (the thumb). the thumb strikes the string and rests on the string below while the fingers....do the walking if you will. of course, not all flamenco tremelos are rest strokes..it really depends on what string the thumb must next play; i.e., the thumb plays string 4 then string 2 then string 5.

[APERTURE]

hey kys: better get that pick. many (as in maybe the majority) tremelos in flamenco use rest strokes (the thumb).

Just to clarify. You do free strokes with the i,m and a fingers. Right? If not, then I need to lock myself away for a few months to change my technique.

[Todd]

Basicaly, you can do it just like classical trem.

Freestroke on the treble, just adding another note with I or A
depending on the combo you prefer. Its done a few ways.

Many flamenco's use the reststroke thumb. When its available.
(doesnt conflict with a sequencial note.)

If you listen to many of the top flamenco guitarists
these days, you'll also
notice, the timing is much different from the classical trem.

There is a significant delay between the bass note and the first
treble note of the sequence. The older style players like
Sabicas or Serranito play it much straighter. Like a classical
trem, but with that 4th note shoehorned in. And of course
the reststroke on the bass notes has a different sound to it.

I think its all preference. Play what sounds and feels best for yourself.:)
Toddk

[M. Stephenson]

Be sure to practice the tremolo with the thumb restsroke - that gives the flamenco sound. Freestroke with the thumb sounds to weak and to classical.

I have not really heard of people playing the actual tremolo using restsroke, but that does not mean that it is not done.

Practice the tremolo part on the "b" string. Avoid practicing the technique as an excersise on the "e" string as this can form a false sense of playing tremolo (been there, done that).

Also, practice the tremolo part un-naturally loud and even. There is nothing like an emotional burst of tremolo as in some Nunez pieces, buit it takes some powerfull technique.

Once you get comfortable, I suggest playing some songs. There are several books available that have both tab and notation, such as Nunez and Martin.

Playing real pieces can be a real challenge in that you have to mix techniques and be able to change fluidly from one technique to the other - that is the real challenge in my opinion.

[Shroomy726]

I see, well, here is another question about the thumb rest stroke in the tremolo.
I understand that you have to position the hand like in picado, but how about the thumb? I tried playing some exercises for tremolo and when i play the bass notes my thumb seems to touch the strings not with the nail but with the skin (side skin of thumb) . Is this normal? Or is it just my noobiness? If i am wrong then i will practice hitting the string with the thumb-nail, but it's gonna be hard.
by the way, thanks to everyone for their help, i understood how to do the ima part, without rest stroke! yay! lol, i am happy because it is easier

[Faya]

Practice, practice, and more practice..........i know it's been said a million times...........,but really that's what it comes down to!
:lol: :lol: :wink:

It'll come naturally after awhile...............

[Todd]

Yes, but only if you are practicing the right things
the right way.


You can practice practice practice, and never get anywhere
if you're not careful. :oops:

TK

[Faya]

True.............!

i was only emphasizing what was being said as advice!!!!!!!!! :mrgreen:

[Faya]

..........Well........., it also helps when you have a Flamenco guitar Monster!!!! ooppsss....i mean Master!!!! to play with everyday for hours........, like Mi Compadre Elan.........! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: 8)

Ohhhh.....Boyyyyy......!!!!!!!!!!!! i'm so glad he came home!!!!!!!!! Talk about Learnin' some stuf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: OH....YA!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :idea: :idea: :idea:

[Todd]

Faya,

I think Jubi's exuberant use of Emoticons
is rubbing off on you amigo!

LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Faya]

.......and not gettin' so drunk everyday that you spend all your awake moments barely being able to hold your guitar up.........,that is when you even play your guitar for more than 30minuts once a week!!!! And your not in a state of constant depression because your Best Friend, Flamenco Guitar Master, and Father die at a very young age unexpectedly!!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

But that's not how it is anymore!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: i have a new found zealllllllllll for life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :D :D :D

And i feel fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :!: :!: :!: :!:
99%Zennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Faya]

Well.........ya know what they say.........."A picture's worth a thousand Words." :lol: :lol: :lol: 8)

[M. Stephenson]

The thumb issue has been on the focus of my studies since the beginning of the year. Seriously. It has been a long road and I have many miles to go.

Modifing my thumb technique has also forced me to modify my finger technique as well - the thumb and fingers really have to work together.

I had always played with the side of my thumb and I have to keep the thumb nail on the side very short or else it hangs. My instructor and I refer to this as the classical position.

Of late I have been working on a more upright thumb position so that I am playing with the thumb nail. It takes some patience and determination to get it right, but man does it sound good.

My thumb nail is very short on the side but long on the top. My instructors nail is the same.

There is a wonderful thumb and index finger exercise in one of Nunez's books and it has been the main piece with which I am refining my technique. I am also using RDLA and Asturias as technique builders. I play none of these at speed as I am focusing on good technique (this takes some self control, as I want to play fast but realize that I need to focus on good technique for now). I often also use a metronome - it makes keeping good form a real challenge.

[Shroomy726]

Thanks for your reply M. Stephenson, I will work on doing the tremolo with the thumb nail, even though it will be hard, i want to do what's best.

[keith]

here is an exercise to get your thumb into shape.

put fingers i.m.a. on the 1st string. keep them there and do not move your hand/fingers. now begin working the thumb doing rest strokes from the 6th string down and then back up. this exercise will develop the independency the thumb needs. then do the exercise with free strokes. then do the exercise using only the 2nd and 5 strings. this exercise will develop the "snap" needed and will provide a degree of control.

remember, keep those fingers on the 1st string and do not move the hand or fingers--the idea is to isolate the thumb. once you develop control over your thumb, then re-visit your tremelo. i bet it will be improved immensely.

[Shroomy726]

here is an exercise to get your thumb into shape.

put fingers i.m.a. on the 1st string. keep them there and do not move your hand/fingers. now begin working the thumb doing rest strokes from the 6th string down and then back up. this exercise will develop the independency the thumb needs. then do the exercise with free strokes. then do the exercise using only the 2nd and 5 strings. this exercise will develop the "snap" needed and will provide a degree of control.

remember, keep those fingers on the 1st string and do not move the hand or fingers--the idea is to isolate the thumb. once you develop control over your thumb, then re-visit your tremelo. i bet it will be improved immensely.

ok, keith, i will try your exercise. Seems like a good idea. I just got confused because flamenco players always tell you to hit not with the thumb, but with a movement of the thumb and a rotation of the wrist. That's the reason why i posted this question. But now i see what they mean; to use that powerful thumb stroke when it's only the thumb. Thanks for the reply, as always!

[M. Stephenson]

The link to the Nunez piece I mentioned above:

Gerardo Nunez’s “Estudio para pulgar e indice”

http://herso.freeservers.com/tabs.html

[NGiorgio]

That exercise by G.Nunez is a great one. I have been playing it for a while and it will really benefit the right hand as it gives you much more flexibility with the thumb. Don't know if will have any positive effects on classical technique, but it sure does help for flamenco. Nunez demonstates it in the new book/dvd and uses the thumb and index on a Bulerias with almost no other fingers with exception to rasqueo. All thumb and index (with alzapua and golpes, of course).

[Shroomy726]

Ok, I will try out that exercise. Thanks again

[YinWai]

Hi to everyone, not sure if this thread is still active? well, am from malaysia, i've recorded myself the popular tremolo song Recuerdos de la Alhambra and hope that i can share with anyone interested to hear it out. please email me, precsmo@gmail.com and i will send you the recording in MP3 format, and please kindly comment. :D :D :D

[Guillermo Rosado]

Welcome YinWai, greetings from México !! (that is "the other side of the world" for You).
Being from Malaysia, I´m shure You know Philip Hii, one of my most admired young guitarists.
Going back to the trémolo question, I´m sure I´ve posted this before.
Philip Hii´s website has a very good article about trémolo technique http://www.philiphii.com/articles/tremolo.html
I Hope it helps.
Best regards

Guillermo

[Shroomy726]

That's a very interesting article Guillermo, but I dont think I am going to follow his advice. He says to start fast, because if you start slow you will learn it wrong. I think the contrary is correct, once you learn how to walk you can learn how to run.

[Jubilee Valence]

...interesting analogy--I'm no "flamenco" artist per se --rather a fellow adept on the path...however,I've read somewhere that "if you can't do it slow,blah,blah.."---well,I have a "rhythem" in my tremolo that matches the rhythem of what I'm doing at the time....I don't think I could sit at a metronome(an unfeeling---"click"!) & "trem"(or anything else for that matter!!!--Thanks for the SUPPORTIVE evidence!!--to me "it's" a feel-not a mechanical movement! jeeezz!!!!---JUBI

[Jubilee Valence]

.........I'm one of those w/"bad habits" learned & increased thus.....so,if ya' don't wanna "play like Jubi..."(or yourself!)--jus' ferget it!--those who've actually heard me play will tell ya' how much I'm "screwed up"-LOLOLOLOL

[Shroomy726]

Jubi,
I appreciate you posting replies to my post, but 90% of what you say I have no idea what you are saying. I dont want to be rude, but make more sense!!!

[Jubilee Valence]

Hey shroomy!---I don't feel any "rudeness" at all!--actually though,being that your replies are from "everywhere" in the imagined spectrum-regarding HOW TO DO something....My answer---my POST--says to everyone-not just you-that I'm comfortable learning by "feel"...not by a "book" or DVD...from "ear" not from paper......but I'm an odd example.....some have heard me,they usually think I have "training" when in fact.....it comes from inside....only-solemente-mi cora,capisce(however you spell it!)---but don't become confused EVER!!!---play what you feel & like the Maestro said practice!--you'll "know" if it's wrong!----what I said is " I can't practice a "mechanical" movement slowly..."--except to train the mechanical aspects of me(my fingers...) but then I utilize it(whatever-trem-anything!)IMMEDIATELY into music or it becomes just another "exercise"---you can exercise FOREVER!---but to me that's "unfeeling"-lifeless;--technical yes, but without soul--sorry to confuse you!---ignore this & maybe read it again at a later time!--Hasta!--Jubi....gotta run!

[Faya]

Yea!!!!!!!......like you've never heard that one before........eh Monro'........ :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

[Jubilee Valence]

Yea!!!!!!!......like you've never heard that one before........eh Monro'........ :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink: !Maestro de Falla!--I hear ya!---He got that "Fandango" down quick.....but now I'm gettin' the impression that someone or he himself, is "limiting" his progression...what do I know???!!(maybe he should incorporate some of his "rock" tecniques,anything to "bust" through!)--ever get tired of "preachin' to the choir? LOLOLOL 8)

[Faya]

Nope and i like "Rainin' on Parades" tooooo.......LOLLOLLOL :lol:

[Jubilee Valence]

Hi to everyone, not sure if this thread is still active? well, am from malaysia, i've recorded myself the popular tremolo song Recuerdos de la Alhambra and hope that i can share with anyone interested to hear it out. please email me, precsmo@gmail.com and i will send you the recording in MP3 format, and please kindly comment. :D :D :D...Brother YinWai,I can't stop the tears!----that is beyond words--Thank YOU!!!--Jubi

[YinWai]

thanks bro jubi, and your recordings sound special too, you'r a flamenco guitarist?

[Jubilee Valence]

Hey Yin Wai!--actually not per se,--the music that I heard throughout my life from cinema & television & radio sort of stuck in my subconcious;(I'm a former"rocker" & a kind of "fusionist") I've not been exposed to real flamenco music until very recently!---It seems to be a truley limitless experience with many,many intricacies but I do aspire! Thanks!!!!--Any other projects?--OH!--They're going to want to know around here about your equipment--Instrument(s),strings,microphones...etc!--& like who are you etc.!!

[Tomas-Lobos]

Dang, Jubi! I didn't know you spoke English!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Faya]

Dang, Jubi! I didn't know you spoke English!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .........Ya!!!!! Was that even Jubi????..... :lol:

Hey YinWai,.......i really liked your version of it!!!!! :D it's way better than mine.... :wink:

Thanks!!!!!

[Jubilee Valence]

Dang, Jubi! I didn't know you spoke English!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:Hey there cousin "Wolfy Tom",tarnation sakes alive!!-SSSSHHH!!!!-y'all know how long that there dag-nabbed "framing" & com-postin'...then the button-pushin' doins'...not ta' mention the en-tire en-cycle-o-pedometer of which I "peruse" throughout my daily en-deavors....lawdy!--don't you let on rats-tail bit 'er they'll be as-pecting it fav'er daily!(..'ts 'why I lef'th'hills;"smarty pants"," 'cross-holler", "yay-hoos" don'tcha'll know...shee-iittt walls a'Jericho!)

[Travis_Warner]

Dang, Jubi! I didn't know you spoke English!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:Hey there cousin "Wolfy Tom",tarnation sakes alive!!-SSSSHHH!!!!-y'all know how long that there dag-nabbed "framing" & com-postin'...then the button-pushin' doins'...not ta' mention the en-tire en-cycle-o-pedometer of which I "peruse" throughout my daily en-deavors....lawdy!--don't you let on rats-tail bit 'er they'll be as-pecting it fav'er daily!(..'ts 'why I lef'th'hills;"smarty pants"," 'cross-holler", "yay-hoos" don'tcha'll know...shee-iittt walls a'Jericho!)


I knew it...it wasn't Jubi :roll: :lol:

[Jubilee Valence]

http://www.draconian.com/artwork/clipart/cartoondragonlick.jpg(...& fer cris'sakes--don't pull a "jubi-dubi-du" & say NO!!)

[Tomas-Lobos]

Hey there cousin "Wolfy Tom",tarnation sakes alive!!-SSSSHHH!!!!-y'all know how long that there dag-nabbed "framing" & com-postin'...then the button-pushin' doins'...not ta' mention the en-tire en-cycle-o-pedometer of which I "peruse" throughout my daily en-deavors....lawdy!--don't you let on rats-tail bit 'er they'll be as-pecting it fav'er daily!(..'ts 'why I lef'th'hills;"smarty pants"," 'cross-holler", "yay-hoos" don'tcha'll know...shee-iittt walls a'Jericho!)


I'm speechless. Can't think of a comeback. Just gonna go practice slurs and hammer-ons. Maybe a pull-off or two. :wink:

[YinWai]

Dang, Jubi! I didn't know you spoke English!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .........Ya!!!!! Was that even Jubi????..... :lol:

Hey YinWai,.......i really liked your version of it!!!!! :D it's way better than mine.... :wink:

Thanks!!!!!

hi faya, thanks, am glad that you like my version.

hi jubi, well, to those who want to know a little about me, i'm staying in malaysia in city of kuala lumpur. i'm a chinese. i started playing guitar when i was 19 years old, the first year into college and started my architectural course. well, there was a classmate of mind proposed to us that why not we get a guitar and start playing? on the first day of getting my first guitar, i knew that i've into the instrument so much!

well, about my guitar, it is a signatured spanish guitar, by carmelo del valle, it is the 2nd top model, in indian rosewood and cedar top.

for the recording, am using a shure mic, the popular sm-57, with a inexpensive tube preamp, and lastly with a creative audigy soundcard. that's all i used to record the song.

[sseow]

:D
YinWai,
welcome to the GSI forum...look forward to meeting more guitarist across the causeway.
seow
singapore

[YinWai]

hi seow, nice meeting you too! give me a call if you come to KL. :D 0122203070

[rainer-guitarre]

hello,

since I also have had my struggle with the Tremolo I recommend

www.rolandschlieder.com

he has very good teaching videos on the attack and on Tremolo. Advanced stuff, and has some hard exercises, but they really build up strength and independence for both hands.

There are some other Forums that have special Thread for the Schlieder Control Technique"

Cheers