1960's characteristics FOR SALE

[keith]

this is the problem with folks describing something in such a vague way that it comes across as goofy.

this is how g.s.i. describes a couple of ramirez cedar top flamenco guitars they are selling: "all the character players expect from flamenco guitars of this period"

so now it begs the question: what is the character (or rather, what were the characteristics) of a cedar ramirez flamenco of this period? what were the characteristics of any flamenco guitar of this period? no wonder diatribes begin.

so to get G.S.I.'s attention in this matter for some clarification: FOR SALE FOR SALE FOR SALE--i figure they have cyber eyes looking for those words.

if anyone knows what this means i for one would be interested since i am not really sure what these characteristics are suppose to be --or for that matter what the writer of these ads at g.s.i. perceives the characteristics.

do folks feel such vagueness actually assists in the sale or hinders the sale. for myself, i would choose the latter.

[Dave Tate]

Hey, no selling on our forum! Didn't you read the rules?! :wink:

Anyway, how to better describe the sound of a '60s Ramirez flamenco...

Well, in the '60s, the "concert flamenco" or "solo flamenco guitar" phenomenon was still taking shape in the public eye, and the Paco tornado hadn't quite struck yet.

Therefore, flamenco guitars were usually designed with one purpose - to accompany singers, dancers and palmeros at (usually) loud flamenco get-togethers ("juergas"). These guitars had to have ample volume, clarity (by no means buzz-less, though), and so easy to play that the guitar could be passed around to anyone, not just highly accomplished virtousos. Sustain was not a concern, only immediate attack and a gutsy voice.

This almost "care-free" character exists in most older flamenco guitars (and many new ones), although the '60s were considered to be the golden years for Ramirez flamencos. Ramirez made made many cedar-top flamencos in these years as well (like the '64 listed now - one of the earliest cedar-tops ever), creating a unique but very flamenco guitar. Perhaps more open sounding, cedar creates a very balanced sound which carries itself well to "strumming," while not at risk of sounding too mellow, thanks in part to extremely low weight.

Nowadays, many flamenco guitars are produced with a concert performance in mind, rather than a flamenco "party". These guitars tend to be built not quite as lightly (often with rosewood backs and sides - flamenco "negras") and may have a higher action. The goal is a beautiful sound that an audience can enjoy, much like a classical guitar. While fantastic guitars in their own right, they do not have the "character" found in older, traditional guitars.

By no means am I implying that guitars with this "airy" personality are not being made today, they are just not as common (relatively speaking) as they were then. Hence, a character that is typical of the '60s flamenco guitar.

Hope that clears up any confusion, we; in no way, intend to be vague.
Let me know if you have any further questions.

Take care,
Dave

[Jubilee Valence]

http://www.draconian.com/artwork/clipart/cartoonblueguitar.gif....now that yer awake,how much is that little doggie in the window?

[Tim Miklaucic]

Keith,

Point well taken...

Thanks,

Tim

[Faya]

Ahhh..........Yes..............!!!! the good Ol' days of Flamenco!!!.............when people just jamD' and everybody was always sayin' ......"Hey,.. Give Me that Guitar!!"......... and everbody had fun!!!!.............not Serious at ALL!!!....... just a big party where people loved to play no matter how good they were........and everbody had RESPECT for EACHOTHER no matter their skill level!!!

Man..........i miss those days :!: :!: :!: ............good thing i know where to find those people still..................

Hey keith........you must be lookin' for another guitar....eh???

[selma600]

so now it begs the question: .

It does not "beg the question."
It "poses" the question.
To "beg the question" is to use circular reasoning.
This phrase has gotten into regular mis-usage lately...probably because of the Adobe Acrobat ad that started using it. Then it got picked up by the talking Barbie Dolls who deliver what passes for network news commentary.
Please don't pass it on!

[keith]

to dave: thanks for the information. it does give the pharase: "characteristic of the 1960's flamenco" a lot of meat in which to sink one's teeth. tim: likewise. now, how to go about raising funds for one of those puppies....let me see, finding old dollar bills in a tin in the backyard.....no, 4 guys in the boston area tried that already and are trading their roofing clothes for orange jumpsuits.

to selma 600: my use of the phrase: "begs the question" was incorrect because the phrase is inappropriate for the usage in which i used it.....yikes, i think i may have actually begged the question. good call on my incorrect usage of the phrase. and to my college professor of symbolic logic: i beg your forgiveness.

have not seen the acrobat reader use of the phrase, but barbie begging the question? that would be worth hearing.

[Jubilee Valence]

Ahhh..........Yes..............!!!! the good Ol' days of Flamenco!!!.............when people just jamD' and everybody was always sayin' ......"Hey,.. Give Me that Guitar!!"......... and everbody had fun!!!!.............not Serious at ALL!!!....... just a big party where people loved to play no matter how good they were........and everbody had RESPECT for EACHOTHER no matter their skill level!!!

Man..........i miss those days :!: :!: :!: ............good thing i know where to find those people still..................

Hey keith........you must be lookin' for another guitar....eh??? :mrgreen: ....sounds like my ol' BLANCA!!!!!! :lol: :lol:--it sounds good no matter who's playin' it!!! 8) ---I miss the ol' days a lot!(..where'd'ja think I learned!! :wink: )--well Nacio--"Maestro",--sounds like at least four will be there for a housewarming soon! :twisted: --a "looney" puro; an "outlaw"; a baroque/classic "yodeller";& "Monro' Mandrix-O"-----jeeezz!--talk about the "Bremen Town ............" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :arrow: --Hey Keith! :idea: --does she mean that if we "beg the question" of "Barbie"(you can have Barbie...I'm a BETTY guy...)--ya' know,- the reasoning being circular & all.......that "she'll"......be "compelled" to answer? :wink: 8)