12 String Classical Guitar?

[fernsemer]

Here is something that has puzzled me from time to time.

In the world of steel string accoustic Guitars, .... there is the 12 string
Guitar. ..... which is really a 6 stringer in disguise!

What puzzles me is why there is no Classical guitar equivilent? Not that I
would want one. .... But I would expect that there would be such a thing.

Yet, for years and years I have never heard an explanation as why it isn't
done, or why it couldn't be done, or shouldn't be done?

Anybody know anything as to why?

[GSI Fan]

Hey Fernsemer,

I not a luthier or anything close, but the first thing to pop in my head was..."how big would your hands have to be to play it?". Then I thought..."wouldn't the strings bang into one another?".

I sure hope someone comes up with something a little better then that!

[Hucbald]

Hey Fernsemer,

I not a luthier or anything close, but the first thing to pop in my head was..."how big would your hands have to be to play it?". Then I thought..."wouldn't the strings bang into one another?".

I sure hope someone comes up with something a little better then that!

Linda manzer makes one. It's $8K if I remember correctly.

Like you said, "not that I want one". You are in the overwhelming majority. Classical guitarists are by and large very conservative musicians and not at all adventurous.

The problems inate in an acoustic nylon string 12-string guitar are many. The lower courses (string pairs) of a steel string 12-string guitar are tuned in octaves. To duplicate this effect with nylon strings you would obviously get into uncharted territory vis-a-vis string tension. Double the string tension on an acoustic classical, and you'll rip the top right off the thing. Since not many luthiers have built them, not much experimentation has been done with them. There is certainly no established methodology for the top thickness, bracing pattern etc. As a result I would expect the sound of ANY acoustic nylon string 12-string to be a dissapointment if you are used to top flight acoustic classical guitars. The Ramirez 10-string is an anomaly, of course. It's extra strings are not courses but are individual strings usually tuned to flat notes to provide sympathetic harmonic vibrations in support of the flat notes on the fretboard and give more resonant "life" to them.

Godin came out with the Glissentar a couple of years ago. It's an 11-string fretless electric nylon string guitar inspired by the oud. It's courses are tuned in unisons like a lute, not octaves. The low E string is not doubled. As soon as I realized I could put a fretted neck on one and have an electric lute, and with a little experimentation get an electric nylon string 11-string guitar, I decided to get one. Got it yesterday. Here's a pic.

http://Pep27.smugmug.com/photos/21372192-L.jpg

Hucbald

[selma600]

Well, you could go for a lute...8 courses. I mean, if you are really that masochistic!!!!
I checked them out and decided I didn't want to devote that much of my life to tuning my instrument!
Gotta say here, though, having been blessed with being able to hang around Fred Neil during an important part of my adolescence, I would KILL to be able to whang away in bluesy style on a Martin 12-stringer and sing "I know you rider" etc....not that anybody would be willing to listen. My voice is (sigh) not the "I Know you Rider" type. Guess I could cutivate a 3-pack a day habit and get there.....
Any Fred Neil fans out there??????????????? We are special people!!!!!

[fernsemer]

Hucbald and GSI Fan......Hello!

Concerning the extra width of a neck for such an instrument>>>>

"Originally posted by GSI Fan:

I not a luthier or anything close, but the first thing to pop in my head was..."how big would your hands have to be to play it?". Then I thought..."wouldn't the strings bang into one another?".

I sure hope someone comes up with something a little better then that! "

I went from a 6 stringer, to a 7 stringer, and at the present time play an
8 stringer. And I hope to someday play an 10 stringer. So I know a thing or
two about playing an extra wide neck.

Most of the problems are more imaginary than real. Although it is true
you have to extra reach for those extra low strings for low counter melodies
from time to time, and you get used to that. But the truth is that most of
the time you don't. This is because most of the time your low bass strings
are the open string notes of the chords that harmonize the piece.
No muss, no fuss.....just reach up with your R.H. plucking thumb and pluck
it.

Getting back to the 12 stringer question I was asking about,

Originally posted by Hucbald

" The problems inate in an acoustic nylon string 12-string guitar are many. The lower courses (string pairs) of a steel string 12-string guitar are tuned in octaves. To duplicate this effect with nylon strings you would obviously get into uncharted territory vis-a-vis string tension. Double the string tension on an acoustic classical, and you'll rip the top right off the thing. "

I would agree with you except that the old Lutes were made for double
courses and I don't read about them ripping the sound board top right off.
Still....you could be right!

"The Ramirez 10-string is an anomaly" ..... Yes it is for the present time.
But if a luthier ever comes along who is smarter than the average luthier....
and starts to make them fan fretted, so guitarists can leverage more treble
strings into their tuning.... watch out!