Flamenco posture vs. Classical?

[Shroomy726]

As some of you know, I started going to a flamenco teacher not long ago. Well, he is teaching me in this new position. It's the classical one, but all this time I have been practicing with my legs crossed with the guitar resting in the top of my leg (like paco de lucia). This new position feels wierd and it is hard for me to hold it. I have never seen a flamenco player play like he does. Am I wrong? Should I stick with this? Thanks in advance for the advice.

Lionel

[compagnito]

How "flamenco" is your teacher?

Mine is muy flamenco so I trust him unconditionally regarding lessons.

Some stuff is more important, I suggest that whether you cross your leg isn't top of the list. I tend to sit cross legged closed, not open like Paco.

Hand positions are way more important in my humble opinion, I am not an expert.

[Shroomy726]

Well, he is muy flamenco I think. I mean, he was born in Spain, started playing flamenco at 9 with a teacher. He even has a flamenco album and had a group with dancers called the "Alianza Flamenca" (flamenco alliance). He even told me that he has studied flamenco and classical guitar all of his life, but he has concentrated on flamenco. Some internet sites also say that he is the predominant flamenco player of the area. I guess I will trust him unconditionally too. I guess I will ask him in the next lesson.

[NGiorgio]

Shroomy,

In order to learn, you must have good communication with your teacher. It may take a few lessons to get to that point, but do not be afraid to ask questions. If he tells you to do something and it feels uncomfortable to you, ask why. If he cannot answer your questions with a satisfactory explanation, the two of you are not communicating. You need to understand what it is that you are doing, and why you are doing it.

As to position, Oscar Herrero's books use different positions with the use of a footstool. Guitar on right leg, as well as guitar on left leg etc. I find that sometimes the classical position works better for me, especially if the piece is utilizing the entire fingerboard. I believe that the late, great Sabicas used a modified classical position at some point in his solo career. So try to be flexible and establish a good relationship with your teacher.

[Libre]

On the other hand, you may not be able to fully understand the reason for doing something a certain way. Total communication is not really imperative - these are guitar lessons, not psychotherapy sessions. If you are putting yourself in the hands of this teacher, and if you ask WHY? and you get the answer BECAUSE THAT'S HOW IT'S DONE then accept it and do what he says.
Unless you want to use your time with him to prod him with questions. Not that questions are wrong. I like to understand why I'm doing something, but "UNDERSTANDING" is not necessarily going to further your guitar playing.
Many teachers don't really want to justify their methods - it doesn't make them bad teachers, necessarily.
If this point is really getting in your way, if it is really uncomfortable for you, clarification on WHY may not help much. Just do what he tells you for now.

[Shroomy726]

Ok, I understand your points and I ahev decided to stick with the position. I also noticed that Sabicas used a kind of classical position, so if the king of flamenco used then it's fine. I don't know, I guess I was having doubts because all of my heroes (PDL and lots of others) did not used this position. I will tell him at the end of the lesson that I used to use the crossed legs position and that will be the end of that. Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate it.

By the way, Libre, I am finally out of school!!!! So I am gonna start working on downloading the first album of yours. I am sorry it took so long, but last week was finals, and as a dumb dumb I missed one because I thought it was another day. It's been pretty stressfull, I hope you understand.

Lionel

[Libre]

Hey - no sweat man. I couldn't download an album if my life depended on it. My connection is so slow I'd die of old age first.
Take your time - no hurry. School should be your first priority.

[Shroomy726]

I am glad you think that way :P

[selma600]

Well, he is muy flamenco I think. I mean, he was born in Spain, started playing flamenco at 9 with a teacher. He even has a flamenco album and had a group with dancers called the "Alianza Flamenca" (flamenco alliance). He even told me that he has studied flamenco and classical guitar all of his life, but he has concentrated on flamenco. Some internet sites also say that he is the predominant flamenco player of the area. I guess I will trust him unconditionally too. I guess I will ask him in the next lesson.

Are you studying with John Lawrence?

[selma600]

Ok, I understand your points and I ahev decided to stick with the position. I also noticed that Sabicas used a kind of classical position, so if the king of flamenco used then it's fine. I don't know, I guess I was having doubts because all of my heroes (PDL and lots of others) did not used this position. I will tell him at the end of the lesson that I used to use the crossed legs position and that will be the end of that. Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate it.

By the way, Libre, I am finally out of school!!!! So I am gonna start working on downloading the first album of yours. I am sorry it took so long, but last week was finals, and as a dumb dumb I missed one because I thought it was another day. It's been pretty stressfull, I hope you understand.

Lionel

I have seen photos of Ramon Montoya with the "classical" position, then as many of him with it in what I consider "standard" flamenco...sort of propped on the right thigh or with the legs crossed. I find this rather awkward, myself, but then, I am used to the classical "sit." I think Carlos M used the "classical" posture but can't swear to it.

[Shroomy726]

sorry, double posted

[Shroomy726]

Selma600-
No, his name is Carlos Sanchez. This site shows a picture of him and talks some about him: http://www.plunge.com/flamencostory.htm
By the way, about the posture, I will ask him what he thinks. I'll get back at you with the answer on Friday. Thanks

[Pepe Vergara]

I have seen the Romeros playing flamenco and classical in the classical position. I have also seen them playing flamenco in the flamenco position. Whatever is comfortable for you. I always wonder how Paco Pena can keep the flamenco guitar in that position all the time and make it look so easy. It does not slip on his leg!! Now: I saw Eliot Fisk recently playing lots of flamenco from the classical positon. He looked real strange (However, he looks strange anyway:)

[Hucbald]

I have seen the Romeros playing flamenco and classical in the classical position. I have also seen them playing flamenco in the flamenco position. Whatever is comfortable for you. I always wonder how Paco Pena can keep the flamenco guitar in that position all the time and make it look so easy. It does not slip on his leg!! Now: I saw Eliot Fisk recently playing lots of flamenco from the classical positon. He looked real strange (However, he looks strange anyway:)

I absolutely adore Pepe Romero. He's such a gentleman and has such a great sense of humor.

Anyway, since I'm a "left field guy" around here :wink: I have to say that I hate to sit and play the guitar. I use the standard classical position when I play my resteraunt gigs, but when I do college auditoriums etc. and even when I practice I use a strap and stand. All those years of playing in rock bands I guess, but I just find it uncomfortable to sit for long periods of time. The classical guitar is pretty small, and I'm fairly tall, so I always feel like I'm wrapped around the thing when I sit. The guitar isn't nearly as stable when I stand, but I still prefer that to getting all the blood pressed out of my skinny butt in a chair.

Hucbald

[keith]

to throw my 2 cents in: some aspects of music do not have much room for variation: a quarter note is a quarter note! but body mechanics i believe do have room for variation and one does need an explanation on the "whys" especially since the way we hold a guitar is dependent on an actual human body. shroomy, if your teacher wants you to play in a certain position and does not explain why, then it is your task to ask if there are doubts.

there are 4 1/2 basic positions to play flamenco and each has its pluses and minuses (there may be others which are used but i am not aware of them).

the "classic flamenco" position can be tough on a body that has long arms and the guitar must be "pinched" with the body to hold it. since the guitar is being held up with the right arm and left hand, mobility of the left hand is not as free as with the other styles. both feet are on the floor which is good for the back.

the relaxed ("paco style" and "juan martin") style allows for easy access of the left hand but it does negatively affect wrist and finger angle . it also lifts the leg off the floor which puts strain on the back. the leg being more crossed is used by juan martin (knee over knee as compared to the ankle resting on the leg).

the "classical guitar" position allows for greater access to the fret board and puts the fingers in a good angle. it also puts strain on the back since a leg is lifted off the floor.

the "manolo position" uses a stool under the right foot. i am not sure if there is a name for the position buy manolo sanlucar uses this position. it is similar to the "paco position" without crossing one's leg but the leg is lifted which puts strain on the back.

the 1/2 position is the flamenco position using a guitar support. you get the benefits of the position with the guitar being supported thus allowing greater freedom of motion.

as to being "muy flamenco"! sabicas was/is muy, paco is muy, the other paco is muy, manolo is muy---and they all use(d) each of the different styles--albeit, sabicas in the early days played in the 'classic flamenco' position and i have heard the other paco (pena) is now using a guitar support. i would not get hung up on the style used as a hallmark of being "muy"

[compagnito]

Keith,

The muy reference was assertaining whether he was a classical teaching a bit of flamenco, or a real flamenco teacher/performer.

I think the real flamenco's like to be a bit bossy - sort of baptism of fire, they know how much work it takes & so I guess they test for quitters early on.

Read "Duende" by Jason Webster, he describes his various "teachers" in Spain & how they treated him.

Flamencos are renowned for being "difficult".

Shroomy your teacher looks real "muy".

Suerte amigo.

[keith]

compagnito: i have heard the old timers could be pretty difficult with respect to other guitarists. donn pohren wrote about some guitarists who refused to play in front of other guitarists, some who refused to teacher their own relatives, and teachers who ruled with a iron fist. i guess being cranky and paranoid runs in all professions and avocations.

i read the book you mentioned. i found the author to be a little to self-glorifing....using the book to tell the world: "look at me, i am a flamenco guitarist." i found dorien ross' book, "returning to a" to be a better book about a person's experience in learning flamenco in spain--at least in my opinion. what is interesting about ross' book is that dorien is a she and she went to spain to learn from diego del gastor who was unaware that she was a she until he first saw her. from her point of view diego did not fit the cranky and paranoid guitarist mode.

just to liven this up: a lot of folks have adopted the "paco position" because it is.... well, PACO! there is guy in russia who dresses like paco, combs his hair like paco, and even goes by the name: paco de rusia (as in russia). his story would be an interesting read!

[NGiorgio]

It will be interesting to see if Shroomy's teacher explains his reason for using the classical position.

In his new DVD/book Gerardo Nunez mentions in regard to right hand position, for example playing picado, that any position which works for you is fine. Perhaps an over-exaggeration, but he is not all that rigid with his instruction on position. He never mentions that anything must be done this way or that way, or his way.

[Shroomy726]

After a long night out I am finally home from the lesson.

As soon as we sat down in the chairs to start playing I asked him if he ever used the crossed-legs position. He answered that he saw a lot of people do it this way nowadays and he really does not find this position comfortable. He started talking about how in his day everyone used to put the bottom in the right leg and just hold it there with the body and the hands. Of course I already was aware of this, but it is nice to know that he is that old! (No disrespect of course) He is very old-fashioned. He has been on the road around the world playing guitar for about 50 years, ever he was 18. It's nice to know this.

He then went on to say thathe got used to this classical position because he has played classic for a long time too, so he decided to use one that fits both. I think that's great because it is so versatile in its style picking. Anyways, I have decided to start my heavy training with the teacher's position. I am starting to get comfortable and think it is much better for the back. I have acquired quite a lot of bad habits which will be hard to erase.

He also tells me lots of stuff that contradict what Oscar Herrero states in his DVD. I find this ok because he is old-school, and thats' GOOD, lol. I mean, he is about 70-75 years old maybe. He talks about living in Argentina around 1958!! That's wayyy back.

He pointed out to me when my departure arrived that he lets his wife do all the long hours driving because doing this for long perios of time can ruin your hands! I am only 19 and I have travelled thousands and thousands of kilometers ever since I was quite young, so I have probablt done something to my hands. I am experimentating on finding a healthy grip on the steering-wheel.

Well, just giving some advice that cam out of an old wise man. I hope I pleased everybody with my answer. If not, then ask me some more :D

[compagnito]

Sounds good.

I think Oscar Herrero is probably very correct for modern style.

The guy in my shop (who knows Paco well) recommended O H dvd's,
trouble is I fall asleep if I watch em, now I just take lessons.

The lessons probably speed up things by a factor of ten.

Good luck.

[keith]

i am sure most of us doing a long drive would rather be the passenger than the driver--for one thing, you can always crank back the seat. what a great idea in telling the wife she has to drive because doing so will ruin his hands. i guess if a person white-knuckles it for the entire trip his hands would suffer but most of us probably use a light touch that does not affect our hands.

i bet a lot of forum folks will try to pull this excuse.

shroomy: one of the biggest complaints of the classical position is how hard it can be on the back. be sure to take care of your back. one thing that can significantly help prevent back problems is the guitar support which puts the guitar in the proper position and allows both feet to remain flat on the floor.

[Jubilee Valence]

....I also noticed that Sabicas used a kind of classical position, so if the king of flamenco used then it's fine....
Lionel--I've got an album here, (from 1960!--it's destined for Faya's library-when I can ever get it sent off!...) titled simply-"Carlos Montoya"(RCA LPM2251)...on the cover,is an undated photo in which he is seated on a four legged stool, feet flat on the floor, with the "lower bout"(of "THE" blanca--the one with the pegs.....made for HIM-i.e.-his "specs"....) resting on top of his right thigh & right arm over the opposite lower bout cradled by his elbow & forearm.This position, that someone had mentioned earlier,-I "jokingly" refer to as the "water closet"("bathroom"..."toilet" actually..)...because...well, you know!(hey!--time IS tight!...)--probably because in my master bath, the water closet is a pretty narrow affair & well-you gotta be "creative" to manoeuver about......bottom line, Lionel--your teacher sure doesn't want you to be "hindered" thusly--like with "the one" position, but you've got it right on--in your "heavy training"-you're gonna want a "rock-solid" base to build in & to remain in for "recall" or "playing with intensity"-----later on, you'll be flat on yer' back at night in bed,"strummin' & rippin' " away!...like with your Strat--you pretty much play that thing "all over the place", right?...Anyway,-AND BECAUSE OF MY "ADVANCED AGE", ahem,.......I find that I have to "shift" about all the time--playin' on tailgates, beach, boulders, steps, barstools, blah, blah, blah!..............as to the "manos" thing....JEEEZZ!!--I just started a new project-full throttle & manipulating the hydraulic valve levers so hard(actually -"fighting" the controls--"overworking" the machine-my "backhoe") for 5-10 hrs a day & then rippin' on the gee-tars for another 5-6-----I've screwed up my "left"-big time-"been tryin'"-but it ain't workin'--gonna HAVE to get full recovery......TIME......figures!....Hasta!-Jubi

[flamencofreak]

I've been reading this thread...very interesting, and many valid comments about playing postion.

Personally, I think it comes down to what you are most comfortable with, but there are advantages to playing classical in the "classical" position, in that I find with the traditional footstool to raise the left leg, with the guitar resting on the leg and against the chest, it is very stable, affording both hands complete freedom of movement.

As far as the flamenco position goes, it is awkward, but if you are playing a traditional flamenco guitar, which is built lighter, it is not as hard to hold the guitar in this position. The flamenco guitar is better balanced for this position as well, so it isn't necessary to hold the neck of the guitar up with the left hand. It just sits there, propped up on your right leg with your arm resting on the top, which holds it in position. It takes some getting used to, and you may find that you have circulation problems in your right arm holding it this way.

The flamenco guitar sounds better held in the traditional position as well, as the back of the guitar is not touching the body, so it resonates better.

In D.E. Pohren's book "The Art of Flamenco", he states that in Spain you won't get much recognition as a "flamenco" if you don't hold the guitar in the traditional position. It doesn't matter how well you play, apparently!

I have seen many excellent players play in many different positions, however. Therefore, as I stated above I think it's really a matter of personal preference. I think the end result...the music...is what matters most, not how one holds the guitar.