Back Problems and Holding Guitar

[vcs700s]

I have been having some back problems lately. Nothing radical but painful none the less.

I went to the chiropractor yesterday and felt better after the adjustment, but after practicing last night with the guitar on the left leg, Efel support attached, my back began to hurt again.

Tonight, I just tried playing with the guitar on the right leg, using the Efel support to elevate it to a more comfortable playing position. My back seemed to feel better.

Anyone tried this? I know it isn't the "traditional classical position", but I think it might help the back and extend my practice time.

Does anyone here use this position all the time?

[PaulB]

I can sympathise with the back problems. I have seen in a music shop a "Tripode" that holds the guitar in your own best position, either sitting or standing. It takes all the weight of the guitar, so is ideal for back sufferers. Don't know if anyone in this forum has used one. You can see one at www.londonguitarstudio.com/accessories/apoyos.

Paul

[vcs700s]

Paul,

Thanks for the suggestion. A friend of mine has used that device with good results.

For the last few weeks I have been using the Efel support as stated in my original post. It has really helped. It elevates the guitar to a comfortable position on my right leg so I am able to play "classically" without back pain. I am also able to practice longer before taking a break. This is the first time I have used the Efel support. I highly recommend it to those who have a hard time with the footstool effecting their back adversely.

[keith]

vcs: i play flamenco and use the efel and have it supported on my right leg--very much like the "traditional" flamenco position. i find i get great access to the fret board as well as good access with my right hand.

now, as to your back problem. having been the recepient of back surgery (if you know the phrase: "agony of defeat" that was me only on water) and having a master's degree in biological anthropology, allow me to provide some comments.

1. sitting, especially for long hours, is one of the most brutal things one can do to one's back. although it appears harmless, the amount of pressure put on the structures is tremendous. we humans were not designed to sit for long hours...plain and simple! believe or not, the tight hamstring muscles (back of the leg) contributes to back pain.

2. one's physical shape is paramount. being overweight is a significant stressors on one's back. lack of exercise is another stressor.
note: not saying the above applies to you..
of course, how we behave biomechanically is also key. just remember, the muscles in the back are called erector muscles, not lifter muscles. our back is to keep our heads held high not lift boxes (or for that matter, paperclips) off the ground.

3. chiropractic adjustments, per the research done by independent sources, is not that effective for the long run (and is about as effective as going to the doctor). true folks will say chiropratic and/or going to the doctor is helpful but the research says the best course is to go to physical therapy, learn the necessary exercises and DO them--as a life time committment-- and behave in a biomechanial sensible manner (i.e., do not sit for long hours, no lifting with the back, etc.). of course, if surgery is needed, then the visit to the m.d. is appropriate.

considering back problems run neck and neck with the common cold/flu as the #1 reason for calling out sick just think of yourself as "one of the blessed".

[daniel711]

Posted by Keith:
1. sitting, especially for long hours, is one of the most brutal things one can do to one's back. although it appears harmless, the amount of pressure put on the structures is tremendous. we humans were not designed to sit for long hours...plain and simple!
That's very interesting... I sit all day at my job, in a decent ergonomically designed chair, and I really don't see how this contributes to back problems. I would imagine that standing all day (retail jobs for instance), or fequently bending and/or lifting would be much greater culprits. I can see if one sat on a soft couch all day with no lumbar support, but not sitting up straight with good support.

[Zak]

Dangit, Keith! Don't ruin sitting for me! I love sitting! :D

[selma600]

Well, I know faith in chiropractic is almost a religion these days, but I wouldn't let those guys near my back for anything. They are only treating symptoms. You need a GOOD orthopedist. He can diagnose what is REALLY going on and give you some real therapy to treat it and make it permanently better and you don't have to keep shelling out money for "adjustments."
I would also recommend that you take up swimming and some light weight-lifting. LIGHT.
I grew up with a severe scoliosis that was corrected over time wih physical therapy, including swimming. My ortho guy (who also used to treat the circus acrobats!) believed in surgery as a LAST resort...and wanted ALL his patients swimming unless they had some condition that prohibited it. It's great for your back as well as the rest of your bod.
If you have a chronic back problem, you need an orthopedist. Compare whatever he charges for a diagnosis and treatment plan that puts you in control, to forking out for "adjustments" that don't really cure ANYTHING for the rest of your life.
end of rant.. I fully expect those of you who think that chiropractic is saving your butt, or whatever, to weigh in with your own rants. but bear in mind that George Washington had total faith in blood-letting and look what it did for him.

[keith]

selma--for most folks with sore backs, etc. physical therapy has been shown to be more effective than seeing a d.c. and m.d. although one should always see an orthopod first to rule out any significant pathology. but for the run of the mill achey back, etc. learning to do one's own physical therapy exercises and using good biomechanics has been consistently shown to be the most effective course--primarily because it is addressing the cause.

i agree with the idea that forcing a body part in and out of position is NOT good especially since the body part did not get "out of position" through force and if it did, it caused destruction in its' path.

as for sitting/standing--the material was in one of my graduate text books. however, a quick google and i found this article which specifies activies and stresses--relative to lying down. but it gives a good overview--see paragraph 2

http://www.wellness.ma/prevention/body-posture.htm

[daniel711]

Very good article Keith, though I wish he would have explained why "standing" puts 50 lbs/sq.in LESS pressure on the discs than sitting!!

[Sandra]

http://nadachair.com/

I used to use one of these. It forces you to sit with your back in proper alignment. I should dig it out and start using it again, as I've been slouching too much in my desk chair all day. :)

[daniel711]

That looks interesting!! Unfortunately, I don't see how you can play classical guitar with it!

[selma600]

selma--for most folks with sore backs, etc. physical therapy has been shown to be more effective than seeing a d.c. and m.d. although one should always see an orthopod first to rule out any significant pathology. but for the run of the mill achey back, etc. learning to do one's own physical therapy exercises and using good biomechanics has been consistently shown to be the most effective course--primarily because it is addressing the cause.

i agree with the idea that forcing a body part in and out of position is NOT good especially since the body part did not get "out of position" through force and if it did, it caused destruction in its' path.

as for sitting/standing--the material was in one of my graduate text books. however, a quick google and i found this article which specifies activies and stresses--relative to lying down. but it gives a good overview--see paragraph 2

http://www.wellness.ma/prevention/body-posture.htm

But this is exactly what I was trying to convey. My treatment with my scoliosis dr and subsequent treatment with other orthopeds for later back injuries have given me the knowledge of exactly what is going on with it and how to manage my exercise in order to keep myself pain-free, lithe and strong. With a back, you need to keep it "well-oiled" by taking the time to to do strengthing and flexibility therapy. You can only get that from a GOOD orthopedist (not one of those surgery-happy ones) I have found that, when I get lazy about it I get stiff, sore and can't sit for more than an hour or so without pain. Back to the "program" and I'm good for hours.

[Sandra]

That looks interesting!! Unfortunately, I don't see how you can play classical guitar with it!
If you are using a guitar brace or cushion and don't need to elevate your left foot via a stool, the nadachair should work just fine for playing. :)

[keith]

selma: no argument from me with respect to structural pathologies and the use of an orthopod. i think in this aspect, going to anyone but an orthopod would be misguided. as to the common aliments associated with the back, most folks can be treated via exercises/good biomechanics. however, i swear by rolfing as an adjunct to p.t.

what i find to be totally ridiculous are chiropractors who advertise they treat attention disorders, ingrown toenails, carpal tunnel syndrome, etc.

[JerryO]

I can attest to Keith's remarks about physical therapy vs. surgery. I have 2 herniated disks in my lower back (L2 & 3?). Several years ago I had one Dr. wanting put me under the knife. I was nervous about it and got a second opinion. I ended up going to a sports medicine guy who put me into physical therapy for about 3 months then home exercises afterwards. They've been pretty much OK since. Every now and then I do something stupid and it hurts. I just take a fist full of motrin and take it easy. I also take glucosamine, condroiten and MSM and I think it helps. I know it helped the degenerative artharitis in my neck and hands. ( I'm a skeletal wreck -- the price of living aa very active life :cry: )

[selma600]

I can attest to Keith's remarks about physical therapy vs. surgery. I have 2 herniated disks in my lower back (L2 & 3?). Several years ago I had one Dr. wanting put me under the knife. I was nervous about it and got a second opinion. I ended up going to a sports medicine guy who put me into physical therapy for about 3 months then home exercises afterwards. They've been pretty much OK since. Every now and then I do something stupid and it hurts. I just take a fist full of motrin and take it easy. I also take glucosamine, condroiten and MSM and I think it helps. I know it helped the degenerative artharitis in my neck and hands. ( I'm a skeletal wreck -- the price of living aa very active life :cry: )

The right one is invaluable..when I was doing a lot of dance classes (I used to do movement theatre which is kind of like mime but not the obnoxious kind!) and started having some problems, I went to a sports medicine clinic in NY...he had me go through all my barre exercises and even looked at my shoes to see where the weight was falling when I went en pointe. Amazing! He sorted me out...it took some re-modeling of a lot of my practice habits, but I got past it all!

[Archangel]

http://nadachair.com/

I used to use one of these. It forces you to sit with your back in proper alignment. I should dig it out and start using it again, as I've been slouching too much in my desk chair all day. :)

That looks very interesting to me, maybe just what I have been looking for.

My torso tilts to the right when I sit "normally" and I think this adds alot of tension to my body not only the back so this is something I should look into :D

[et041053]

I have packpain too...i use a waist strap most of the time...it helps!http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/tutorials/howtopreventbackpain/htm/lesson.htm

[et041053]

I have packpain too...i use a waist strap most of the time...it helps!http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/tutorials/howtopreventbackpain/htm/lesson.htm

[ClassicalGtrPlyr]

Ive seen a great player in concert and he plays on the right leg
his name is Ricardo gallen

[Mark Lim]

Back pain is a common ailment that affects a lot of people. I read thru all the comments that have been made so far and most of them are valid. I have been practicing medicine for close to ten years and i would like to share some of my own experiences. I also unfortunately have back pain too.

It has been shown by some research that some people are born genetically predispose to back pain. This explains why some people with bad posture and overweight etc..never get back pain and someone who is the total opposite does.

some of you mention that hamstring muscles stretches helps and it does if you understand the physiology of the problem. Majority of all people suffering from a bad back is discogenic in origin. That means the source of the problem is actually the disc. When we were young, we have healthy discs that looks likea bag of fluid. Some people due to genetics, injury, repetitive strain or poor posture, overweight....all these contributes to a quicker degeneration of the disc.

The function of the disc is to support your vertebral bones and once it starts to degenerate it cant do its job as well anymore and guess what happens after that? Well the muscles of your spine have to do most of the job. Now thats why we start to feel the pain because the muscles tense up and later on the hamstrings come into play and they tense up as well. It is the tensing of the muscles per say that cause the pain even though the source is the disc. So stretches relieve that discomfort somewhat.

The other cause of pain is the facet joint around the vertebra. A degenerate disc will cause more strain in the muscle but it also cause more strain in the facet joints. Now this is where chiropractics seem to help. Some of us even can do some manouveres and you can literally hear the cracking sound in the bcak and you feel better after that. That is because you have just relieved the strain in the facet joints.

What we do so far is to help relieve the pain which in the end slows down the degeneratice process of the disc. BUT we cant do anything for the disc that has degenerated. Absolutely nothing. If the disc gets more and more unhealthy and you dont do anything about it you are at high risk of getting a disc prolapse. And a prolapsed disc can injure your nerve and thats when you get whats called a sciatica, which is a shooting pain down your leg.

So what does it all mean? Well if you have someback pain now, it obviously is because your disc is not healthy. See a good physical therapy and learn to stretch all muscles of your body. That loosens up the muscle and slow down degeneration. SWIMMING is the perfect exercise for back problems. DONT see a chiropractor as the pain relieve is only temporary and there is a risk of further injury.

Sitting for long periods is definitely not good. Get up and move around. Good chairs and beds etc all helps to relieve the muscle stress but you cannot sit for too long.

When do you see a doctor? Well if you are in stron pain no amount of exercise is going to help, you need some pain killers. They will help the pain and relax the muscles. Rest in bed one day and try to move around after that. If you have sciatica you need to observe for six weeks and if there is no improvement thats when you need to discuss with your doctor about surgery. Dont ever rush into surgery unless you are the right surgical candidate. 80% of patients with disc prolapse recover on their own irregardless of what you do.

But if you need surgery there are many advances today and there are two types of doctors to see. One is an orthopaedic ad theother is a neurosurgeon. If it is just doing a simple disc surgery go for a neurosurgeon but if it is a major averhaul with nuts and bolts...orthopaedic. See a few before going for surgery. The only reason for surgery is a pain that is worsening even after six weeks or there is a persistent nerve injury.

Hope this helps.

[thedrizzle]

ever tried putting your music stand up really high so you have to sit up straight to read what you are practicing? i tried it for a while and it worked well but i got lazy and put it back down.

[rdubb]

YES!

I've done exactly the same thing. It works, to an extent. The "extent" being exactly as you say....eventually I get lazy and put it back down.