help for scales

[jguitar]

I have been playing the guitar for a while. Now I am doing some sor studies and villa lobos' preludes and choros. I used to play the segovia scales before I was given some new scales. My new teacher wants me to play as fast as I could. (quarter beats in 100) I was told by many other people to play slow. I have to say that playing slow gave me more control on my tone but playig fast really helped my overall speed in many pieces. So should I play fast or slow. How do you people after years of playing practice your sacles. what scales do you use if not the segovia ones? Thanks

[Libre]

I don't want to contradict your teacher - speed building is good and important. But tone and control are needed first - in my opinion. Speed without tone and control are worthless. Nothing wrong with practicing both.

[cdikland]

My new teacher wants me to play as fast as I could. (quarter beats in 100)
:shock: That is not very fast.. Sure he/she didnt mean 1/16th at 100???

[daniel711]

Quarter notes at 100 is not fast at all, however, if that's the level you're at now then that's the place to start. Scales are an integral part of improving technique. Just to put things in perspective, I am up to playing eighth notes (2 notes per beat) at 144bpm. My teacher does sixteenth notes at 180bpm!! Speed is not the only goal, by any means. With scales you need good tone, good timing, confidence, and eveness (the same qualities of all around good technique). The goal then is to increase the speed of your scales as the QUALITY of those scales improves. The scales don't have to be perfect before you notch them up. But they must be at a certain level. That level is subjective, but for me, my teacher decides when I notch it up. Most of the time I don't feel ready, and ask for another week or so! So you have to push yourself, and that means pushing for ALL of the qualities involved.

It's also a good idea to practice scales with both rest and free stroke. Alot of players use only rest strokes. I hope this helps...

[ykabban]

Some teachers want new students to play scales as fast as they can to build muscle, before concentrating on control.

[jguitar]

My new teacher wants me to play as fast as I could. (quarter beats in 100)
:shock: That is not very fast.. Sure he/she didnt mean 1/16th at 100???

I am so sorry. You are right. I meant 1/16th at 100. I can play it, but it is just kinda rush. Should I keep going? I mean to play faster. 1/16th at 120?
how fast the speed is considered to be fast enough?

[Zak]

Sixteenth notes at 120 beats per quarter is pretty fast. Thats about where I absolutely top out, on a good day, when I've been practicing lots. I try (when i'm feeling motivated) to play a segovia scale or two, a three octave scale, and the other CAGE forms...

Do you practice rest/free/both?

"How fast is considered to be fast enough?"

Depends on what song you're playing :wink:

But what the others have said is absolutely true - i can say for sure that you are playing TOO fast if the notes sound inconsistant, too quiet, have bad tone, etc.

Good luck!

[jguitar]

My teacher also told me to play at least 16th beats at 100-120. Right now I am doing 112 on im and ia and 100 on ma. My tone guess is ok, but you konw fast playing makes the sound flashy instead of deep, rich and mellow. I don't practice rest stroke that much. But on a good day I would do some rest stroke excersies.

[Tomas-Lobos]

jguitar:
"i learned(and got most up to speed) all 12 of villa-lobos's etudes but it only took 1 or 2 weeks."

...and you need help with scales??? :shock:

[JerryZ]

You made a minor mistake Tomas. It was T.J. that made the remark not JGuitar. :oops:

[rdubb]

no one is indicating what pitch gamut one is working on at what tempo...that's kind of important.

I don't consider having worked up to a particualr tempo until i can evenly WITH dynamic contour (i.e. cresc up and diminuendo down) do a two octave form up and down at a certain speed. Ideally one should also be able to throw in accents as well, like every 3 or 4 or 5...

I do love how my LH feels all day after a concentrated 20-30 minute session dong scalar forms up and down the neck at progressive speeds.

Usually I start EXTREMELY slow (1/2 note at 60), and analyze LH-RH synchonization. then I'll jump into 1/8 at 60, 1/16 at 60, 1/8 at 80, 1/16 at 80 etc, all up to my limit.

Most teachers say that a 'professional' (love that word) should be able to comfortably do 2 octave up/down at 120 (16ths). Even the fast scalar passages in Aranjuez do not require much beyond that.

My free stroke could definitely kick the crap out of my rest, but now i've been working to close the gap, becuase, well rest stroke does soudn fatter and its worth having my rest stroke up to speed. yeah i know so and so said that if you have a killer free stroke you can make it sound as good as a rest stroke, but honestly, I don't really buy that anymore.....if you truly push downwards in a rest stroke you get a vibrational axis that you just cant get from the free stroke motion...

[daniel711]

My free stroke could definitely kick the crap out of my rest, but now i've been working to close the gap, .
Mine too, and I do believe that alot of players over use the rest stroke for lack of a strong free stroke. The difficulty players have with fast rest strokes (what I've read and experienced) is the under developed extensor (outward pushing) muscles of the fingers. Flamenco players have developed these muscles much more than classical players, and thus their ability for "machine gun" rest stroke passages....

[rdubb]

My free stroke could definitely kick the crap out of my rest, but now i've been working to close the gap, .
Mine too, and I do believe that alot of players over use the rest stroke for lack of a strong free stroke. The difficulty players have with fast rest strokes (what I've read and experienced) is the under developed extensor (outward pushing) muscles of the fingers. Flamenco players have developed these muscles much more than classical players, and thus their ability for "machine gun" rest stroke passages....

My biggest problem with velocity and rest strokes actually has been my nails, followed by underdevelped synchronization. I tried the spoon and the hair curler, but gave up on those....finally have just figured out a good angle of attack that doesnt catch the hook too much.

and the synchronization...well that just takes dedicated relaxed slow practice, like many things on our lovely instrument.

oh yeah, forgot about the "m behind i" string crossing descending. yes in a perfect world you would never have that happen :) but in practice its gonna happen occasionally in a longer scale and it is best to be able to execute it cleanly.

wow -- i have come to the conclusion this morning that I really, TRULY am a Guitar Nerd. I mean who else gets up, makes coffe, and immediatly fires off a response like this....'yeah brah, its all about the MUSIC maaannn'

[Clement]

I would like to ask the same question the original poster asked at the end of their posting...what scale studies do most of you recommend, Segovia or others?

I have been neglecting scale study for the last year except to use as warm-up for about 10 minutes each practice session. I need to get back to a more systematic study of scales in all keys. I was using the Aaron Shearer book of scales but would like to hear what others are using and why.

Thanks!

Clement

[Jonny Hotnuts]

I know people are going to freak when I say this but I think playing scales is a waste of time.

If your intent is to perform scales for enjoyment, to become a composer or to play live then you should by all means learn and play them.

But if you are playing scales to become a better guitarist then why not learn a piece that is scale oriented. This way you can kill two stones with the same bird, you can gain the finger strength and learn something you can play and enjoy.

There are many tunes out there that can give you all the benefit of playing scales but it also gives you a practical application for the pattern, the dexterity of position shifts and practice on sounding musical.

I just think learning and playing something that you dislike playing, sounds dull and no one else would want to hear is not always the best way to skin the cat….
unless you are a music teacher that wants to drag out expensive lessons.

[Clement]

Jonny Hotnuts,

Thanks for your input and opinion! If I may ask:

1. Do you think there is a beneift in terms of theory in studying scales (i.e. becoming familiar with all the keys)? Or can this be gained as easily (or better) through practising scales as part of the repertoire?

2. What suggestions do you have for pieces that are very musical and yet beneficial in terms of scale practice?

Thanks.

Clement

[daniel711]

This way you can kill two stones with the same bird, you can gain the finger strength and learn something you can play and enjoy.

I just think learning and playing something that you dislike playing, sounds dull and no one else would want to hear is not always the best way to skin the cat….
unless you are a music teacher that wants to drag out expensive lessons.
Actually, it's two birds with the same stone :wink: And why do you just assume that people dislike playing scales?? Learning guitar requires that you enjoy the PROCESS. If you think of practicing as just a means to an end, you won't get very far. Practicing must be an end in itself. Even the greatest players spend most of the time practicing. If you're looking for an excuse not to practice scales, that's fine. Just don't try to blame it on greedy teachers, and admit that you're not willing to "put in your time".

[Jonny Hotnuts]

I play everyday no less that 1 hour, even with my very busy life as a business owner, in the process of remodeling my house and am getting married in September (I had no idea how much work in involved is getting married!!!!).

My normal playing schedule is around 3-4 hours everyday and has been sense I was around 16. I would hardly call that "not willing to put in the time".

I just think that time is better suited learning as you play as apposed to just droning scales. To me I relate it racing bicycles.....sure you can sit on an exercise bike for hours in the same room spinning away, and yes, it will build strength but you can also get on a real bike and race head to head with others daily, that to me will also build strength but also give you a change in view not to mention the experience of what the training is all about.

I can see nothing that you can gain from playing scales that you can not get from playing….and ask yourself…..if there IS something you gain from scales that you can not get from playing why would you need to know it. To me it is about finished product and if you choose to play scales or play pieces it is a matter of choice…..but I think that the person that plays pieces that challenge ones weaknesses will advance faster those just playing exercises that are useless for anything else.


BTW: I have used the "2 stones with the same bird" bit for years to keep people on their toes..

[GSI Fan]

...am getting married in September (I had no idea how much work in involved is getting married!!!!)...

Just wait...that's the easy part!!!!! :wink:

[daniel711]

...am getting married in September (I had no idea how much work in involved is getting married!!!!)...

Just wait...that's the easy part!!!!! :wink:
Right on!!! That sure IS the easy part.... :lol:

Jonny - The "exercise bike" analogy was clever, but some of us really do enjoy playing scales. To me it's a sort of like meditation. And you said yourself, people will freak if you say they're a waste of time. To each his own :)

[Jonny Hotnuts]

In my first post to this thread I said:

If your intent is to perform scales for enjoyment, to become a composer or to play live then you should by all means learn and play them.

I know and respect that everyone has diffrent taste, and some people do like to play scales, it certainly cant hurt anything and if it is what you like to do.....scale away!

[GSI Fan]

...am getting married in September (I had no idea how much work in involved is getting married!!!!)...

Just wait...that's the easy part!!!!! :wink:
Right on!!! That sure IS the easy part.... :lol:


Reminds me of the joke...

Q: Why do husbands die before their wife?

A: Because they want to!!!!!!!

[daniel711]

Originally Posted by GSI Fan:
Reminds me of the joke...

Q: Why do husbands die before their wife?

A: Because they want to!!!!!!!
How about -
Q: Why is divorce so expensive??

A: Because it's WORTH IT!!

[rdubb]

I can see nothing that you can gain from playing scales that you can not get from playing….and ask yourself…..if there IS something you gain from scales that you can not get from playing why would you need to know it. To me it is about finished product and if you choose to play scales or play pieces it is a matter of choice…..but I think that the person that plays pieces that challenge ones weaknesses will advance faster those just playing exercises that are useless for anything else.


BTW: I have used the "2 stones with the same bird" bit for years to keep people on their toes..

I used to believe that, until I actually undertook a real technique and scale practice of its own.

Then I realized that using parts of pieces for technical work bled the music and life OUT of the pieces, and made my performing shaky becuase I had become used to repeating sections over and over, and that got programmed in.

But that's just me. Bream, Lorimer, Yamashita all advocate getting your technique out of piece fragments...not bad company i'd say.

In my humble opinion, solving technical problems with exercises and scales frees one up to learn pieces faster, with less repition, and able to get to interpretation faster, which is what music is all about any ways. Many guitarists just sound like they're playing finger exercises that could actually be music....I would put myself in this category at times definitely, when I've over practiced parts of pieces in a technical manner.

[daniel711]

In my humble opinion, solving technical problems with exercises and scales frees one up to learn pieces faster, with less repition, and able to get to interpretation faster, which is what music is all about any ways.
I totally agree, and would add that during exercises and scales you are completely focused on technique (hand position, posture, timing, etc). With pieces we often sacrifice perfect technique and "go for the music". For example, if we need to collapse the wrist for a moment in order to reach a note, or make a diffcult chord, we do it to serve the music. And this is how it should be. Practicing exercises and scales, on the other hand, is an opportunity to "go for the technique" alone, and not worry about the music.

[GSI Fan]

How about -
Q: Why is divorce so expensive??

A: Because it's WORTH IT!!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Libre]

Then again, you can save all that money and agony by making sure you marry somebody that you will NEVER want to divorce - like I did (the 2nd time - hey, can't win 'em all).

[Tomas-Lobos]

Please accept my apologies. :oops: :oops: :oops:

[Pepe Vergara]

... save all that money .... you marry somebody that you will NEVER want to divorce - like I did (the 2nd time - hey, can't win 'em all).

She must have been watching over your shoulders at the time you wrote this, or she has her own password.

[NLong]

I personally would rather practice by playing challenging pieces. No doubt playing scales works the chops, but of course, few pieces are simply scales. Maybe sustaining the root with a different finger each time and then playing all of the scale possible might build more dexterity. As for myself, if playing scales, I can get to a point where I can blast through a particular scale once it becomes muscle memory, but once I move on to a lesser known scale it slows down considerably. It seems to me that there is a limit to where scales will take you with classical guitar. If anyone is looking for a piece that build chops, sounds great, and is fun to play, I recommend "The Frogg Galliard" by John Dowland. Most recordings I've heard are at about 100bpm.

[rdubb]

I think people have a misuderstanding with why they should do scales...mostly they think practicing scales are good for scale passages in pieces.

Actually, scales balance the hands and create an overall playing foundation. And if you think about it, scales are the basis of all types of music, especialy when you look at music contrapuntally.....one note joins with another note linerally over time, even when you are playing vertical simultunaties, there are horizontal connections going on all the time.

There is NO limit to where scales can take you on the guitar, if you practice with awareness, and take a systematic approach. I can guarantee anyone here that taking a systematic approach to studying scales daily for a few months will DRAMATICALLY improve their playing.

but no one says you 'have to'.....maybe that's why people get turned off to the idea of doing them, its like they have the same reaction as one had when they were 12 and their mom told them that they had to do their math homework.

[Clement]

I can guarantee anyone here that taking a systematic approach to studying scales daily for a few months will DRAMATICALLY improve their playing.

This is precisely the question I would like some discussion on...what IS a systematic approach to studying scales. Suppose one has 1-2 hours of practice time per day...how does this systematic approach fit it? One could, I suppose, spend many hours on scales between keys, right hand finger alternations, rhythm, etc...

I am looking for suggestions of a good systematic approach that will produce tangible benefit.

Thanks!

Clement

[bruno]

I have to agree with Jonny Hotnuts. I have always found it extremely tedious to practice scales and have never been convinced about the real benefits (for me, at least). I had a bad conscience about this until I found this interview bewteen Manuel Barrueco end Eduardo Fernandez. Just take a look at what EF says:

"EF: I'm against people practicing scales in general.
MB: Really, why?
EF: Because it has nothing to do with music!
MB: But there is a physical aspect to it, and I'm sure you agree with this: The more technique you have, the more you are able to realize your musical ideals.
EF: Yes of course, but technique is not gained by working on technique, I think. Of course it is a paradox, but the more you concentrate on technique and the physical aspects of technique, the less you are able to do it. I've seen this happen many times.
MB: Some young players think of technique just in terms of playing fast scales, but that's just one aspect of technique. Technique is much more complicated than that... to me a great technique should be invisible!
EF: Of course, technique is about control. But to control, you have to aim at some kind of target. Playing the guitar is really about control and about how can you make the sound you have in your head come out physically. Of course there are many ways to this, many different approaches but basically it's about sound, here and now. It is not about practicing exercises for about two years and then being able to play, it doesn't happen that way, this is counter productive. You have to focus on the result you want, and work towards the result. This takes a lot of moral courage in a way because it is much easier to sit down and play through a book of exercises.
MB: So, if you think someone shouldn't practice scales, then how does somebody develop scales?
EF: You work when you need that and you work towards that specific target. If you're playing “Un tiempo fue Itálica Famosa” by Rodrigo, of course you have to practice THOSE scales because there are thousands of them. But you practice those scales, in this context, with this particular music in sight. You just don't practice scales in abstract.
MB: But do you ever practice scales?
EF: I did for about 2 weeks...
MB: Really? Because my experience is that there are so few scales in the guitar repertoire that to depend on that would not be enough. I actually encourage my students to practice scales because of that.
EF: I think someone asked Alvaro Pierri in an interview how much he practiced scales and he said: “Never! If I ever play a concert of scales I will practice them.” I think that's absolutely perfect. "

[daniel711]

Well, it is very clear that Barruecco does not agree with Fernandez - although he is very polite and conciliatory about it!! I mean what do you make of statements like, "...technique is not gained by working on technique..."?? :shock: Give me a break!! Those are lofty, and not very useful words :roll:

Barrueco goes on to reply,..."really? Because my experience is that there are so few scales in the guitar repertoire that to depend on that would not be enough. I actually encourage my students to practice scales because of that".

All you have here is one opinion - and the better known player (Barrueco), is NOT of that opinion! :wink:

[steve v]

Daniel711, I think Fernandez's words are useful. What he's saying is that technique isn't learned in a vacuum; rather, technique is learned as, and is an integral part of, making music. Are you better served by practicing six hours a day for six months playing scales simply for the sake of playing scales, or by using that same time to practice music and concentrate on learning correct techniques while practicing that music? The desired goal is the production of a sound, or a string of sounds, in a musical context. I never wanted people to say that I could move my fingers quickly, but I did want them to say that I can make music. And I never felt that practicing scales in a vacuum helped me make music. But practicing a scale passage from a given piece of music helped me make music within that piece.

[daniel711]

. And I never felt that practicing scales in a vacuum helped me make music. But practicing a scale passage from a given piece of music helped me make music within that piece.
Go back and read Barrueco's opinion on that :wink: You already know my opinion...

[steve v]

I don't need to read Barreuco's opinion again, as I read it the first time and disagree with it. I say Fernandez and Alvaro Pierri are right: if I ever have a concert of scales, I'll practice them.

[daniel711]

I say Fernandez and Alvaro Pierri are right: if I ever have a concert of scales, I'll practice them.
How about - If you ever practice scales, you might have a concert :lol:

[steve v]

How about, I've already had concerts while pursuing a Master of Fine Arts degree?

[Guitar Slim]

Remember, speed does not build good technique, good technique builds speed. And too much speed without good technique can cause serious injury. A great many musicians have suffered serious RM injuires from pushing too hard. That's why you should always apply proper technique, no matter what speed you are playing. It may seem paradoxical, but slow, concentrated practice is the key to playing well at faster speeds.

I'm curious, are you applying "preparation" technique to your practice? Left and right hand finger preparation for scales, the "Tarrega Rules" for arpeggios? When my first "serious" teacher turned me on to these techniques, I was amazed at how quickly my playing improved. But to learn it proplery requires that you start painfully slow and pay close attention to all of the parameters of good technique: left and right hand position, the angle and force of your right hand strokes, etc.

Back when i was a diligent student, I would start my "exercise routine" with the metronome at 60, playing quarter-, eighth- and 16th-note scales, and running through my arpeggio exercises. Then I would play the whole routine again 4 to 8 clicks faster and continue to increase speed by increments each time through my routine. As I approched the limit of my speed, I would change the increment to 1 or 2 clicks.

Within a few months I was playing 16-note rest-stroke scales at 144 bpm and 16th-note free-stroke arps at 160 bpm. That turned out to be the wall for me. I was never able to play much faster. But that's fast enough for most repertoire, which is what's important.

Which brings me to a final piece of advice. Whatever else you are doing during your practice, take time every day to play something beautiful, something that makes your heart soar or that will bring a tear to a listener's eye. You are not an athlete in training, you are a musician. It's all about art and expression. Technique is just a means to that end.

[daniel711]

An MFA in Music??? Haven't heard of that one... Perhaps you're a ceramics major who likes to play guitar.....no??? :idea:

[steve v]

Way to prove your ignorance, daniel. Don't bother responding, as I'll be ignoring you from now on. Have a nice life in whatever world you decide to live in...

[bruno]

Daniel 711,

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that Barrueco is the better-known guitarist. That has nothing to do with the quality of his opinions. Besides, if you know any of Eduardo Fernandez's recordings on DECCA and more recently on ARS VIVA, you can't fail to recognize the very high calibre of his artistry (which doesn't mean, obviously, that you will prefer his playing to that of Barrueco's). In fact, you can see by the dialogue that MB and EF are discussing as equals (and friends). Listen to his playing as a background to his views on technique and I think you will agree that EF's opinions shouldn't be dismissed outright and are at the very least thought-provoking.

Objectively, I don't think either of them has the final word. I think both opinions carry equal weight, and it is a matter of personal choice whether you adhere to one view or the other.

[Guitar Slim]

I have to say that I HATED doing technique exercies -- that includes scales as well as other kinds of practice. But I continued to do it because of the results it acheived. I have to agree with Rdubb, a systematic application of technique practice will DRAMATICALLY improve your playing.

If you're a brilliant virtuoso already, then you can ignore this. But for everone else -- it's good advice folks!

[rdubb]

Wow i just had an amazing lesson and long home-chat with a longtime teacher of mine, friend, and one that's fairly well known in the guitar world, Marc Teicholz.

Now its funny because Marc always busts me on doing too much technique, and not going deeper into pieces, which I will admit I am guilty of at times. What's great about returning to him is I get reacquained with the process of microscopic practice of relaxation between shifts and and assiduous use of left and right hand preparations whenever possible....all within pieces of course.

we talked about how John Williams' left hand is other-worldly in the sense that he somehow manages to get to EVERY NOTE AGES before he has to play the note, so that every note sounds like the first note of a pice, and always has weight behind it. WIlliams is the undisputed master of this. What's trippy is that there really is a tangible delay between when he sets up to play a note/chord/etc, and when it is played, there is never any grabbing or reaching for things.

My point of all this.....well Marc is kind of in the Fernando camp about things, and its good to be re-remided of ALSO taking a concentrated music-based approach to 'technique' AS WELL as doing exercises.

[rdubb]

[quote]
I am looking for suggestions of a good systematic approach that will produce tangible benefit.

Thanks!

Clement

I think its best to consult with a good teacher for guidance on this.

Its good to keep in mind that one derives the most benifit from a system that encourages always trying differnt tempi, accents, dynamics, fingerings, anc such. Don't get stuck doing things by rote and mindlessly just to "work the fingers" or "keep the mechanism up". Always challenge your brain and concentration, and stay relaxed and attentive to what your fingers are doing and how your body feels and your posture. With that intent, then you can begin to design your own system, but its best to start from the framework of a good teacher.

[Libre]

withdrawn

[WillBee]

[quote]
I am looking for suggestions of a good systematic approach that will produce tangible benefit.

Thanks!

Clement

I think its best to consult with a good teacher for guidance on this.

.

i agree with rdubb that having a good teacher is invaluable, but i'll tell you my routine which works for me...

i use segovia's fingering, but i don't do every key, usually just e maj, e min, g maj, and b min. i try to play each one 2x with im, ma, ia (once free and once rest) (sometimes i skip ia if i'm pressed for time) i always use a metronome a play a tempo that is not easy, but can still consistently hit all the right notes in rythym

there has been solid evidence put forth in this thread for using "true" scales, and also for using scale passages in pieces (dowland music, i'd mention also bach's solo violin works - see pumpning nylon). i would reccomend to you to give one philosophy a solid try (say 4-8 weeks of segovia scales) if you don't feel like your overall playing is improving, or you're bored out of your skull and not having fun. switch to passage scales and see if that works better for you. even if you like segovia scales, maybe switch anyway just to see how the other half lives...eventually you will discover what works best for you

[Clement]

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I did study under a couple of teachers for a few years and my last teacher and I were using the Shearer book of scales. I was just curious how others were systematically practicing scales and if there was a preference for one approach versus another (i.e. Segovia/Shearer).

One of the best scale excercises my last teacher gave me was actually chromatic in nature (which I believe she got from Pepe Romero since she is his ex-wife) and covered every string up and down the neck.

On the 6th String: fret 1,0,1 (1st finger, open) - 2,1,2 (2nd, 1st fingers) - 3,2,3 (3rd, 2nd fingers) - 4,3,4 (4th, 3rd fingers)

Then a quick shift to the 4th fret and continue: fret 5,4,5 (1st, 2nd fingers)....all the way up the neck on the 6th string.

Then back down the neck on the 6th string in reverse order (i.e. 11,12,11) until open and up the the 5th string...

You can do this with all the finger combinations and use it for other things too...