When to start Sor studies and which Sor studies?

[Bobd]

I've pretty much completed Arron Shearers Classical Guitar technique Vol. 1. It's the method just previous to the new method he now has out. I don't have a teacher at this point but am progressing and hopefully not aquiring any really bad habits. Anyway, I would like to know if at this point I should start to look into the Sor studies. Having completed the Classical Guitar technique Vol. 1, which really just keeps you in the first position, would this be a good time to start Sor? If so, which edition should I get. I have read good reviews of the Segovia edition by Hal Leonard and the Mel Bay by Grimes. I'm leaning towards the Segovia because it has a CD included. What do you think?

Thanks,
BobD

[GSI Fan]

Bobd,

Definitely the Segovia Edition and hurry up about it. You're falling way off the pace. :wink: :wink: :twisted:

[Libre]

The Segovia edition. Absolutely, positively, unequivocally. And immediately.

[Bobd]

Alrighty then. I'm off at lunch today to pick up the Segovia edition. Thanks for the definative input.

[rdubb]

I don't have a teacher at this point but am progressing and hopefully not aquiring any really bad habits.
Thanks,
BobD

Um, you need a teacher. I really don't believe one can work through the foundational stages of classicl guitar development without a techer, and not acquire a boatload of bad habits. This is not a reflection of your ability, tenacity, or intelligence. Its the nature of the instrument, and of 'classical' music in general. There are many complex and mulit-faceted movements that must be mastered, often simultaneously, and with ease.

If one is fool-hardy enough to go it alone, at least get the Jamey Andreas book, "The Principles of Correct Practice", and also Pumping Nylon (Tennant). Follow Tennant's advice on the right hand, and everything else you can rely on Andreas' book. But really, do those with a teacher.

Sure, having a teacher is expensive, but do you want to hit a brick wall 2 years down the line and not be able to progress b/c of too many bad habits, or else try to push through that wall of bad habits and injure yourself?

[Bobd]

Well, I probably am already racked with bad habits. I've owned this guitar for 20 years and have off and on picked away at it. So, I think I'll go it alone this winter and if I'm still at it I'll get a teacher in the spring. Thanks for the advice.

[Libre]

If you're going to be your own teacher, then be a tough teacher. On the Sor studies, follow the Segovia arrangements as *exactly* as you can. Give each note its FULL time value - sustaining it for its full duration, no more, no less. Be a fanatic. Don't move through the studies quickly. Take 1 or 2 at a time and learn them completely. Then, move on to the next 1 or 2. I think taking 2 at a time is a good idea, so you don't fasten on one single piece, but you are not taking on TOO much at once. The later studies can be a bear, so don't worry if you can't get them perfect. The earlier ones should be as accurate as you can possibly achieve. Learn to bring out the melody line with rest strokes, while supporting lines are played free stroke. Learn to accent, to modulate sound quality and volume, to breathe life into these studies. They call them studies because they address a specific technical issue, but they are beautiful enough to be concert works - so don't shortchange yourself.
And have fun!

[Bobd]

Libre,
Thanks for the good advice. I will take it to heart and also apply it to the Shearer method I'm working thru.

[LPLIV]

Hey BobD... One other thing since I don't know if you are doing it or not but both of my teachers (past & present)have pretty much requested that I memorize everything that I learn... And now that you are in a little bit more melodic and enjoyable pieces it can only help... I have sort of comprimised though now, I memorize the more difficult pieces as a memory activity and don't push the easier tunes that I like as much... That just comes as a byproduct from repetition over a longer period of time... This way I can work on the harder stuff and still have some diversity... And at my age the memory isn't what it used to be....

Have fun and work hard you will enjoy the results....

Phil

BTW.. Libre, I saw the last lead to Tower Records Online and listened to a few of the samples.... Great work....

[Libre]

Thanks, Phil.
By the way, I don't fully agree that you should memorize everything - especially studies that you are not going to perform. Memorization is an important skill, but so is the abilty to read accurately, without looking at the hands. You can get a great deal of benefit out of these studies without memorizing them.

[Libre]

You know, I've been thinking about the advice I gave, and decided to follow it myself. It's been a LOOOONG time since I did any real practicing. What I mean by that, is doing anything other than developing performance pieces. So tonight, I opened my Segovia edition of the 20 Sor Studies, and started at numero uno. I played up to about number 8, and held it there. I'll devote some time to these studies each day. I think it will be of great benefit to relearn them ALL, and in the same fashion that I recommended above - not rushing through them, and with attention to detail, to get the full benefit out of them. These are great etudes. We could ALL benefit by studying them.

[Ted]

Very good advice, guys! I do, however, question the opinion of rdubb. I'm self taught (2 1/2 yrs.) and by paying close attention and adhering to the method books I've used-Noad, Parkening, Shearer plus the very helpful advice of a good friend (he's not giving me any lessons), I have not fallen by the way side of picking up bad habits. Are there benefits to having a teacher? Definitely. Must one have a teacher? I really don't think so. I personally have learned different languages, and photography (pro) on my own. I would guess that it depends on how one applies what they're learning. I.e. correctly or incorrectly.

[rdubb]

Very good advice, guys! I do, however, question the opinion of rdubb. I'm self taught (2 1/2 yrs.) and by paying close attention and adhering to the method books I've used-Noad, Parkening, Shearer plus the very helpful advice of a good friend (he's not giving me any lessons), I have not fallen by the way side of picking up bad habits. Are there benefits to having a teacher? Definitely. Must one have a teacher? I really don't think so. I personally have learned different languages, and photography (pro) on my own. I would guess that it depends on how one applies what they're learning. I.e. correctly or incorrectly.


Well, I can't really be the judge of this now because I cant see or hear your playing. One is not the best judge of their own playing and if they have any ingrained bad habits - only a teacher is. My habits are transparent to me often unless a teacher points them out to me.

Lets just say I've been playing for my entire life, sometimes with a teacher, sometimes not. The times not, I deluded myself into thinking I was really making progress but in reality I was just spinning my wheels. This is because I always endeavor to play at a high level, with ease and accuracy.

Its easy to be content with where you are, and that's fine I suppose. If you can play the pieces you want, get through them rhythmically accurately in front of an audience, and not look like you're in pain with one shoulder higher than another, strange wrist angles, etc., without a teacher, then that's good.

But practically anyone i've taught who has said they've worked through Shearer, Noad, etc., on their own, and said they've 'mastered it' invaribly has little rhythmic discipline, poor legato, stops and starts, and all that. They need a teacher to kick their arse. There are always exceptions though.

[KenK]

Hi All,

Just curious as to why so many people recommend Segovia's excerpts of Sor's Studies. I've been working with "the Complete Sor Studies". (Tecla version)

Going through Sor's opuses as he intended them you can see an amazing guide to learning the instrument. The later ones especially. I've used it for my own pleasure, to work on things and as a teaching guide for students.

Thanks,
KenK

[Ted]

Very good advice, guys! I do, however, question the opinion of rdubb. I'm self taught (2 1/2 yrs.) and by paying close attention and adhering to the method books I've used-Noad, Parkening, Shearer plus the very helpful advice of a good friend (he's not giving me any lessons), I have not fallen by the way side of picking up bad habits. Are there benefits to having a teacher? Definitely. Must one have a teacher? I really don't think so. I personally have learned different languages, and photography (pro) on my own. I would guess that it depends on how one applies what they're learning. I.e. correctly or incorrectly.


Well, I can't really be the judge of this now because I cant see or hear your playing. One is not the best judge of their own playing and if they have any ingrained bad habits - only a teacher is. My habits are transparent to me often unless a teacher points them out to me.

Lets just say I've been playing for my entire life, sometimes with a teacher, sometimes not. The times not, I deluded myself into thinking I was really making progress but in reality I was just spinning my wheels. This is because I always endeavor to play at a high level, with ease and accuracy.

Its easy to be content with where you are, and that's fine I suppose. If you can play the pieces you want, get through them rhythmically accurately in front of an audience, and not look like you're in pain with one shoulder higher than another, strange wrist angles, etc., without a teacher, then that's good.

But practically anyone i've taught who has said they've worked through Shearer, Noad, etc., on their own, and said they've 'mastered it' invaribly has little rhythmic discipline, poor legato, stops and starts, and all that. They need a teacher to kick their arse. There are always exceptions though.


Everything mentioned is absolutely correct, rdubb. What I'm aiming for (and perhaps missing the target :oops: ), is that one can learn without the aid of someone physically teaching them; not just someone picking up a guitar and banging away at it hoping to some day be proficient. The method books, and solid advice from accomplished players and teachers is invaluable and necessary. I desire, seek and get that advice. Hope I got a "Bulls eye" this time. :wink:

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