Right Hand technique Blues

[cdikland]

When ever I watch myself in a mirror or video tape myself I always feel that my RH technique is way off. In particular my free stroke. I have been told by previous instructor that I hold my hand too cramped and the fingers not straight enough. Anyway, I dont have an instructor at the moment and considering where I live I dont see one in the near future. I made a video that shows my RH up close and ask the opinions of those on this forum. That is to say, opinions on my RH technique not how well or badly I play the piece. :D :D . The entire piece played on the video I am using free stroke. From what you can see (view is limited to mainly p & i fingers), does it appear that my free stroke is too cramped?..

Blind Mary Video (http://www.ckdsolutions.com/guitar/blindmary.mpg)

[Todd]

I think your RH looks really good actually.

I think the RH profile is a personal thing, and it can
be high, low, or anywhere in between.

Thats really what your teacher is saying, cause when you
straighten the fingers out, your hand has to come away
from the guitar a bit more (higher profile).
For instance, Bream has a fairly high profile, and uses
his large knuckle joints alot more.
Lorenzo Micheli has a very low profile, using mostly
the second joint and may look
cramped to your instructor, but you could never
argue with his miraculous results. :)

Your hand looks to be sort of in between.
David Russel has around the same profile you do.....Farily low.

I like a lower profile, cause i feel it promotes better accuracy.

TK

[ykabban]

Nice, pleasant to listen to. However, I would follow through my stroke. You are plucking rather then stroking/sweeping through the string. Try this as practice -play the same piece, but follow through all the way and touch the palm with the finger that is stroking. Do this for each note for IMA. This is a great way to get a powerful free stroke. I only do this for arpeggio practice. Some players do this in performance, but to me that's wasted movement. Also try to solidify that right hand, it hops a bit too much(wasted movement). I'm sure you've heard all this before. Rework and repost it. Once your fingers learn to follow through, they will seem much more relaxed, and despite the seemingly larger stroke, you will be able to arpeggiate much faster.

[daniel711]

The RH is much too cramped. You want the pivot to come from the large knuckle (at the base of the finger). To achieve this you must relax the wrist and bring the whole hand further away from the strings. You need to follow through with the entire finger. The problem, as I see it, is that you're using the lower joints of the fingers to pluck the strings. You'll never get a good, strong, free follow-through this way. Watch J. Williams on the Seville video (if you have it). Regardless of what you think of his playing, he's got an incredible free stroke. And free stroke is where it's at........

[DFL]

In my opinion there are a few things you could improve upon. While Todd is right about there being a lot of different right hand approaches, there are a few basic rules that are pretty universal. It's hard to tell from your video, but you should definitely not rest your arm or wrist on the guitar's face, your wrist shouldn't be too bent, and your shoulders should be relaxed. Judging by your hand position some of those may not be the case, but it's impossible to tell.

It looks like you're not using your thumbnail. If that's the case I'd work on finding a position and nail shape that lets you use it - moving the hand further off the soundboard helped me find a decent thumb attack angle.

I think Ykkaban addressed a very important thing with plucking versus stroking. When you're playing you're actually extending the knuckle joint for each stroke - that's a big nono. What that does is move your fingers away from the guitar face, and it results in a weak, thin tone. Yk's suggestion of follow through practice should help you with this. You should have your knuckles help you stroke through the string rather than pull your fingers away from it. At the very least, for free strokes, they should be stationary, but never moving outwards as you stroke, which is what's happening currently. Some arpeggio exercises with the correct follow through (stroking fingers all the way in until they touch the palm) should help get you started on correcting that.

The idea behind this is that the process of preparing and plucking across the string with your nail pushes the string into the guitar face, and the stroke releases it, yielding up and down (in relation to the soundboard) motion of the string. This up and down motion transfers much more energy to the soundboard, whereas plucking tends to result in more of a side to side motion, which wastes a lot of string energy (because the soundboard doesn't move that way.)

It also looks like you have some tension in your pinky/ringfinger when they're not in use. Try relaxing them a bit more and keeping them just off the strings, not cinched up all the way.

I think the aforementioned things are pretty universal and found in almost anyone with good classical technique, the following were helpful to me too, but some people may disagree on some points. It's ok to let your fingers move sympathetically with their neighboring fingers when they're not in use, in fact you'll have less tension that way. Try to keep your hand as compact as possible, with fingers right next to each other rather than spread apart. They should be close, touching, and sometimes even overlapping. This may seem a little counterintuitive at first, but it results in a very secure right hand feeling.

To get all these things corrected will probably require you to make some changes in the way you position your hand, attack the strings, shape your nails etc. Most notably I think you'll want to move your hand a little further away from the soundboard. The whole thing is definitely a trial and error process, and you'll have to relearn some things, but the end result is worth it.

Seeing some different angles on hand, arm, and body position, may help troubleshoot some more, but I'd experiment with some changes first. What instructional materials are you using?

[cdikland]

Wow, this is good stuff. :D Thanks for all the great feedback. I wish it were possible for me to find an instructor near where I live but "near" is at best is a likely a 1-2 hour drive but most likely around 3-5 hours drive. :(

Anyway, I do have some questions regarding some of your comments.

ykabban

I have heard "follow through all the way and touch the palm " from others but never seen it demonstrated. My question is, do you plant the AMI fingers first??? While the i finger doesnt seem to be a problem for me if I try your suggestion with the m finger without planting the a, both fingers move into the palm.

Do you have the capability to make a video of this and demonstrate this "follow through"?


DFL

No my wrist is well away from the guitar top. If I try to move it away further and try to keep my wrist straight my forearm can no longer rest on the of the guitar. Does that make sense??? I'll try to make a video of different angles which shows more of my right arm.


Again, thanks for all your comments. I think using video and recordings along with this forum is got to be the next best thing to having a good instructor. Maybe even better cause two or more opinions has to be better than one. :D

[arby]

Here is a link to some videos of basic right hand technique:

http://www.stringdancer.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=downloads&cat=murdick

Usually bent refers to side to side bending, a straight wrist is not bent from side to side, but can be arched (bent down), bringing the wrist away from the top of the guitar. Don't know why i'm giving advise, you sound better than me!

[cdikland]

Arby

Couldnt get any of the downloads to work (even after registering). Each would start ok but eventually hung. :cry:
------------------------------------------------------
Never mind. I got em when I right clicked the link and selected save as...

Thanks for the link. Pretty good videos. Very much supported the advise given me here as well as confirm I have lots of work ahead :D

[DFL]

Getting advice is nice, but nothing beats a professional that can help you in person. :) One possibility might be to find a teacher and see him once a month for an hour or two, or whenever you can make it.

As far as the follow through goes, I've been taught that it's ok for your unplanted fingers to move sympathetically with the ones that are following through. Trying to keep everything separate and independent is going to require more tension than just letting them move naturally. If you need to stroke a string with the ring finger right after you want to have it planted already, or plant it right as the other finger is stroking inwards. The whole follow through exercise is just a way to get your hand used to that type of stroke. When you're playing you don't need to exaggerate and touch your palm, just when doing things like arpeggio practice, and those should be fully or sequentially planted.

It's ok to bend your wrist a little. Excessive bending is where the problem is at. A good rule of thumb that works for me is to start with a straight wrist, tuck your thumb into your palm, make a very tight fist, then wiggle it around. Any angle you can achieve while doing this shouldn't be too bad for your tendons. You'll notice that up and down is easier than side to side motion, so as arby says, it's ok to drop your wrist a little bit. The bottom of your wrist/arm doesn't have to be straight, the top can be straight, or even bent down a little bit, and you'll be fine.

One thing you can try is to rest your arm closer to your elbow, near the base of the guitar, and attack the strings at less of an angle. When I changed to this I had to experiment with nail shape, so you may too.


Videos are always nice, so here are a couple links:

Libre from this forum posted some videos over the last couple weeks, and his right hand demonstrates how you can play with a different angle to the strings.
http://marcfriedlander.com/musicLib/video/

David Russell usually has a video up on his site - he has a low wrist and angled attack, but if you look closely his knuckle joints don't move out on his strokes.
http://www.davidrussellguitar.com/video.html

Over on the E-borneo classical guitar forums a guy called John has been posting clips of famous guitarists over the last couple of days, which should give you some more stuff to look at, assuming they're still up. Be sure to look down the page a little bit.
http://www.e-borneo.com/ab/cgforum.html

Edit: I just looked at some of the videos from the E-borneo forum, and there is one of David Russell with very nice camera angles, and that's about as good a technique as you can copy. He is playing rather fast, though. http://z11.zupload.com/file.php?filepath=5606

[cdikland]

Getting advice is nice, but nothing beats a professional that can help you in person. :) One possibility might be to find a teacher and see him once a month for an hour or two, or whenever you can make it.

I would not mind the 2-3 hour road trip once a month if......

I could find a teacher that far from home (Toronto or Montreal, Canada.)
And
Had some way to verufy this instructor would be worth the trip each month..

Winter is coming to canada and I sure wouldnt want to drive a long way for someone less than competent. But then how would I know that in advance?/

[Guitar Slim]

Looks like you've gotten some mostly good advice here. Just remember, technique is about physical mechanics, not necessarily how your hands "look". You have to be aware of your own physionomy and adjust appropriately (this is where a really expert teacher comes in handy). It's not about how your knucles look, it's about where your motion and leverage are coming from, about your angle of attack and motion through the strings.

Having said that, I do notice a little too much motion coming from the lower knuckles, and not enough motion from the knuckles at the palm.

A very good teacher illustrated the proper motion of the right hand to me like this. Relax the hand so that the fingers hang loose, then flex your hand as if you are going to make a fist -- but don't clench it all the way. Observe the motion of the hand as you flex it, you will see most of the motion coming from the palm knuckles. That's how proper freestroke should look on the guitar. It's very fluid and very natural, the motion comes mostly from the palm knuckles and the fingers stroke inwards toward the palm, rather than "plucking" straight upwards.

I don't know about bringing the fingers all the way up to touch the palm, I don't think it's really necessary to exaggerate the motion that much except as an illustration of the direction of motion.

As far as prepration goes, your finger preparation looks very proper to me from the video. Just remember the Tarrega rules. Prepare all fingers at once when playing an ascending pattern, prepare one at a time for descending patterns and individual notes.

The Giulliani RH studies are very good practice, provided your RH is moving in the proper fashion.

And don't forget the bottom line. Technique is just a means to an end, the end being what we hear coming out of your instrument. And what I hear coming out of your instrument is quite nice! So don't get the blues too bad my friend, you sound great. [/i]

[Guitar Slim]

It's very fluid and very natural, the motion comes mostly from the palm knuckles and the fingers stroke inwards toward the palm, rather than "plucking" straight upwards.


Perhaps i should rephrase this (it's hard to put some things in words). A better way to describe it is that the large knuckes should be the FULCRUM of your stroke. Of course there will be some motion in ALL of the knuckles, you don't want your fingers to be too rigid.

For what it's worth.

[GSI Fan]

Cor...

I don't have anything advice to offer - sorry. What I would like to know is where I can find the sheet music for that little cutie? Thanks!

[cdikland]

The piece is "Blind Mary" by Turlough Carolan. I got the music from a book by B Verdery called "Easy Classical Guitar Recital". While some might say all the pieces in the book are pretty easy I would not go that far. More like "challenging but doable" :) Blind Mary is an exception.

[Libre]

Cor-
I don't have anything to say about your right hand. What I have to say is, I was enchanted by the beauty of the piece, and your sensitive rendition.
Thank you.

[GSI Fan]

Thank you Cor!

I agree with Marc, enchanting and sensitive.

[kys]

cd, are you from North Gower :o I live in Ottawa, and my cousin lives in Perkins sub right in North Gower

[kys]

btw, as to the RH, I find that Barrueco plays incredibly cramped, yet I haven't heard anyone argue that his tone isn't QUITE good enough. Movement from the large joint isn't essential so long as you get a nice plant, and set the string vibrating perpendicular to the plane of the sound board (or close to it), which also comes from nail shape. I found that thinking about it in that light helped me to produce a free stroke that sounded closer (not quite there yet!) to a rest stroke.

[cdikland]

Libre and GSI fan,

Wow, thanks a lot for the compliment. That wasnt the intent of the video but I'll take it anyway I can :D

[kys]

Cor, you say you can't find a teacher in Ottawa? Who were your previous instructors?

[cdikland]

cd, are you from North Gower :o I live in Ottawa, and my cousin lives in Perkins sub right in North Gower
:shock: :shock: :shock: Holy crap!!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: Yes..... Well, I was from NG but moved to Morrisburg last year. Since that time I havent had any luck with instructors willing to take me on a monthly basis. Cant very well drive to Ottawa/Montreal on a weekly basis.

Anyway.... How did u know I was from NG??? Who is your cousing? Does he know me?? :lol:

[cdikland]

Cor, you say you can't find a teacher in Ottawa? Who were your previous instructors?
Davis Schriver (sp?) at the Ottawa Folklore Center..

[kys]

haha, well, Morrisburg isn't far away. I checked out your webpage, after I noted that you said that it would be a few hours to Montreal or Toronto, and saw that you were located in NG. I am actually from Brockville area (I am sure you know where that is seeing as to how you live in Morrisburg), but go to Ottawa U.

Gary Elliot is in the east end, off of Montreal road which isn't so far from you. He is excellent, I studied with him for a year or so when I was younger. i wish I still could, however it is hard to fit in guitar lessons while finishing off a science degree.

[cdikland]

I am actually from Brockville area (I am sure you know where that is seeing as to how you live in Morrisburg), but go to Ottawa U
Ok now this is getting to be pretty funny. :shock: I AM FROM BROCKVILLE!!!!! :shock: At least during my elementary and high school days (TISS). I lived on Bennett Street. I suppose next you are gonna tell me we are neighbors :D

My step son Goes to U of Ottawa as well
What a small world

[kys]

Wow that is pretty crazy, I actually live close to Frankville, on HWY 29, but Brockville is a little more major. My cousins (the Boyds) actually live on Tupper, which is rather close to TISS.

[DFL]

In response to some comments and clarification of my advice - the main objective with the right hand stroke is to get the string moving "vertically," assuming the guitar face is horizontal. In other words - however you do it the result of your stroke should be the string moving in a direction that's mostly perpendicular to the guitar face. The follow through method is just one way of approaching that result. Whatever you end up doing will have to be what works for you, and like Guitar Slim said, the mechanics are much more important than what it looks like.

For myself I noticed that rest strokes have significant knuckle movement. Slow free strokes have some, and the faster the free stroke gets the less knuckle is involved, largely because of economy of motion. I came across a couple articles again recently that discuss minimizing follow through while still achieving a loud, round tone by pushing the string into the soundboard. This would be an alternative to the traditional follow through approach, though I think a lot of guitarists do this anyways, albeit without giving it a whole lot of thought.

Philip Hii's article on projection:
http://philiphii.com/articles/projection.html

More interesting stuff on his site - browse around, it's worth it:
http://philiphii.com/notes/

Douglas Niedt's no follow through free stroke approach:
http://www.douglasniedt.citymax.com/GettingAGoodFreeStrokeTone.html

His website also has a lot of stuff worth exploring, starting here:
http://www.douglasniedt.citymax.com/PreviousMonthsTips.html