Carlos

[aleksadabic]

There are many good flamenco guitarists,but we cannot forget Carlos Montoya,who reminded people what flamenco is,and that flamenco created all of us.

[Todd]

Carlos did not play compas, and was frowned on
by the flamenco community. He played flashy "flamenco-esque"
crowd pleaser sort of stuff. Not actuall flamenco.

RAMON Montoya is who you are speaking about.

He is known as the "father". Sort of what Segovia was to classical.

TK

[Faya]

While Todd speaks for a many of the Flamenco guitarist today. And that's cool............to each there own. :D no problem with that!! 8) :wink:

The fact is.............

Carlos Montoya actually did play in compas when he was younger and with dancers.

Carlos did not consider himself a flashy player or someone who played only for comecial reasons, (If he wanted to do that he would not have put himself in the compas polices crosshairs, so to speak...... :lol:), ..........he just wanted to do what he wanted to do with out boundries of compas........which is just fine.
Ramon was Carlos's uncle i think........and he refused to teach Carlos any guitar........so, Carlos kind of became a rebel of sorts to Ramon........Where Ramon was known for Clean Compas based playing Carlos became known as a Raw and aggresive player who's only goal was to express himself with out being tied down.........he often said......."I use the traditional names for flamenco songs in a generic way.".........or something like that!!...he used the traditional songs as a baises and then made them his own way.........i think that's what he was saying.......

Whether or not he was flamenco depends on who you talk to.........he was frowned on by some but a lot of the Flamenco guitarists of his day liked him and knew what he was trying to do........

By the way Cameron was also sometimes critizised for not playing in compas..........does that make him not flamenco??............you see both of these peole come from flamenco families and were gitanos..........they grew up with flamenco and that is why they are considerd "Flamenco".......IMHO

You don't have to like him...........but he did have an impact on flamenco. :lol: :D
i for one loved his REBEL attitude!! :twisted: :lol: ....he was like a Flamenco Outlaw!!
Speaking of Outlaws where in the heck is Jubi???? :lol:

[PedroO]

I agree that Carlos Montoya was the "father of us all". Thanks for bringing him up.

[NGiorgio]

Go to

www.deflamenco.com/articulos/carlosmontoya/indexi.jsp

You will find out almost all there is to know about Carlos Montoya.

[Pepe Vergara]

Don't forget that the famous 1951 Marcelo Barbero guitar owned by Sabicas was made to order for Carlos Montoya. Marcelo signed the top: For my friend Carlos Montoya.

[Faya]

Hey Nick,...............everything i said was from my family's thoughts of him...........and that link says just about everything i did......... :shock: WhhooaaaaWWW......... :shock: .....creepy!!!

Thanks for the limk! :D 8)

I still prefer RodrigOOOOOooo for the rawness factor though..... :lol: :lol:

[NGiorgio]

Faya,

Your family had the correct info, for obvious reasons. Brook Zern is a highly respected flamenco historian and occasionally writes for Guitar Review. I found the article to be very well written and did not pull any punches but still gave credit where it was due.

I saw Montoya play a few times, in a very small theatre, in the Hamptons, where he had a summer home. I was quite young and was playing electric guitar. Just a few years before I started to study classical. At that time his sound was rather strange to me, but I was able to recognize the terrific technique. He was the first flamenco guitarist I ever saw or heard.

[Faya]

Nick,
yeah........Carlos definitely had his place in flamencos spread to the rest of the world.
Hey!!..........one of my family names is "Montoya"....... :shock: :shock: ....you don't think??? :shock: :shock: ..........naawww.........couldn't be....... :lol: :lol: :lol:


Thanks again for the "Limk" :lol: :lol: :oops: ..........i meant "Link" :lol:
:wink:

i also spelled "Camaron" wrong in my 1st post.... :oops:
i gotta' start proof-reading my posts before i send them on their way........ :roll: :lol: ...........

But i do like Carlos.......... :D

[PedroO]

.... Hey!!..........one of my family names is "Montoya"....... :shock: :shock: ....you don't think??? :shock: :shock: ..........naawww.........couldn't be....... :lol: :lol: :lol: ... :D

Falla: Is there a De Lucia by any chance in you family? :D
By te way, Montoya is also one surname in my extended family. We may be distant cousins!! :D

You may be the encarnation of the best of all of them!!! You never know!! I know in my family, most of them were butchers. Generations of butchers. The ones who were not butchers were in jail because they kill someone with a knife (butchers!!). That explains how I butcher those poor strings too!!

[Guitar Slim]

Hey!!..........one of my family names is "Montoya"....... :shock: :shock: ....you don't think??? :shock: :shock: ..........naawww.........couldn't be....... :lol: :lol: :lol:


I'm looking at your new avatar Faya. Funny, but you don't look like a Montoya! :shock:

[Faya]

Hey!!..........one of my family names is "Montoya"....... :shock: :shock: ....you don't think??? :shock: :shock: ..........naawww.........couldn't be....... :lol: :lol: :lol:


I'm looking at your new avatar Faya. Funny, but you don't look like a Montoya! :shock:

ya better watch out..........WwwwwwOOOOaaaaaaa........MMMmmmeeeooo www....thems fightin' words!!!


http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h268/NdeF/0171ac3a.jpg


:lol: :lol: :lol: :!:

[Faya]

yo pedro...........if you Montoya side came from around Cadiz, Spain........it's very possible :wink: .........

or they could be.............

Butcher of Sevillaaaaaaaa :lol: :lol: :lol: :D

[Perf_de_Castro]

Faya, Pedro:

Any of you guys related to Iñigo Montoya?

http://img178.exs.cx/img178/931/inigp5zf.jpg

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[PedroO]

Yeap!! That is my favorite uncle, another butcher!! The Princess Bride!! Those are my favorite words!

[Jubilee Valence]

Ahem......although it goes against just about EVERTHING I believe in....I'll "cut'n'paste" some key thoughts from that shameful(somewhat;...in theory) article....

"It's easier to judge Carlos Montoya's cante accompaniment, which can be quite correct and effective. Among them, the recordings with Niño de Almadén and with Porrina de Badajoz stand out – solid, even tasteful backing that elicits good work from each singer.

But though he must have played for many serious singers in his early career in Spain and with touring troupes, those two are apparently the only noted singers he ever accompanied on record. And this interesting aspect of his artistry is far overshadowed by his solo and concert work,[FACT--JV(emphasis mine)] which left aficionados unimpressed [OPINION--JV]even before a new generation of virtuosos raised the bar to stratospheric levels."

"Summing up, Carlos Montoya didn't cut much ice in the hard-core flamenco community, and we tended to feel sorry for those earnest young people who came to the big city to study with him....." [Shameful trash; Once again "emphasis" mine; *See anything "yet"?--JV...think: "Gypsy..." ;) ]

"...Montoya concert where I was sitting behind Sabicas and his brother, Diego Castellón......and sure enough, Sabicas used this same gimmick at his next concert, also bringing down the house. ("Amazing, Maestro," I said fecklessly afterwards. "You made your five thousand dollar Santos Hernández guitar sound exactly like a two-dollar drum.")--NOTE THAT THIS GUY SURE DOES "SUCK UP" TO SABICAS......"CARLOS' BRO'!!"--JV...emphasis mine...again...sigh....

All in all then, it seems Carlos Montoya is a sort of open-and-shut case – an idiosyncratic guitarist vastly overrated by the ignorant public, rather like Manitas de Plata. But there's another important facet to Carlos Montoya:["GEE! GOLLY!"--JV] He was a pretty damn good accompanist. In his formative years,[HUH?--JV] he accompanied great dancers including La Argentina, La Argentinita, Vicente Escudero, El Estampio, Faíco, Antonio de Bilbao, La Malena and La Macarrona. Add his stint with the very young Carmen Amaya, and you may have the greatest lineup of dancers that a single guitarist ever backed.

Nick, mi amigo y con muy respecto....."this"(the following sentence which admits total ignorance of an admitted shortcoming...one of "many..." & is nothing more than a well executed literary "cop-out") is the essence of this interviewers whole ridiculous take---(I have ZERO respect for this article & this next statement sums it up as to "why"...)

QUOTE: What was it in Carlos that led Ramon to prefer another student, as the record jacket[note: emphasis MINE--JV] says (and for that matter, who was the preferred student who presumably came to naught?).

I don't know, of course. END QUOTE



No Nick, he doesn't.......do you?(or "anybody"? ;) )....[The following is anecdotal & of all, RIP--JV]

Don Ramon probably does;

Sabicas probably does;

Carlos could probably show him a thing or two...

While I have respect enough for the hard work & dedication of this author/player, it is "overshadowed..."(to "borrow" from him, if I may)--by his obvious botched-up & thus shameful "discredit" to the literary world & audience at large...

_________

Read between the lines;

He praises Sabicas, who is known as "the greatest..."(and it's certainly evident that this author is a HUGE follower of Sabicas!)

Then he CLEARLY places HIMSELF in the "forefront" of the professional Flamenco community:

...we tended to feel sorry for those earnest young people...

Then....forgetting himself....he does a complete "flip-flop" by uttering shameful psuedo-professional comments about Sabicas' own true friend...mirrored by those in the day only regarding the popularity of the man--NOT HIS "PLAYING"--ie "jealousy" not "disrespect"

There! I feel better...Nick, try not to be "offended" by my personal views--albeit--the truth;

(Monro', don't be too harsh on me---your "protoge'...." but it HAD to be said!)

As Don Pepe rightly and accurately pointed out, that fabled instrument that was commisioned (and obviously "designated" as to modifications!)by Carlos Montoya of the great Marcelo Barbero, was in turn PRESENTED to his (Carlos') great friend & Monro', Sabicas; (& still now resides with Dennis Koster, Sabicas' protoge' & friend to Aaron Green)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c27/jubiduuu123/montoya31.jpg

Eddie "who...?" :lol: :lol: :lol: ...it's ALL been done before! ;)

Jubi
_______

OPRE!

[Faya]

Perf,...........that's the cousin of my niece's nephew's sister's brother, on her grandmother's dad's uncle's wife's side......... :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yo Monro'........why would i be harsh on someone defending Carlos......??? i love that guy!!! :mrgreen: ................he didn't follow anyones way but his own.........!!! :wink:

[Faya]

~edit~

[NGiorgio]

Hey JV,

I am not offended. I still think it was a very informative article regarding Montoya's career. Some liked him, other's didn't. I don't list him among my top twenty of all time, but I can respect what he accomplished even though I may not care for his playing.

Many times the written word, as far as history goes, is not always 100% accurate.

I also think it is way too late for anyone to know what really happened between Ramon and Carlos.

BTW, I think the famous Barbero it not in Koster's possession, I believe it is owned by a Physician friend of Aaron Green's. I seem to remember reading this in one of Aaron's post's here or over on AG.

[Jubilee Valence]

BTW, I think the famous Barbero it not in Koster's possession, I believe it is owned by a Physician friend of Aaron Green's. I seem to remember reading this in one of Aaron's post's here or over on AG.I remember that too!!!!--The "Dr" bit!!! Sorry about that!!!

[deAlmeida]

I've heard Carlos Montoya stuff that was in compas.. but most of it was not in compas and played with really sloppy technique....

but he was also the closest thing to authentic flamenco that I was first exposed to..my parents had an old carlos montoya cassette tape. hey, I'd rather people say that Carlos Montoya is flamenco than the gypsy kings!