seein' Jorge Caballero toight!

[rdubb]

i'm so excited I can't contain myself!

I'm gettin to see the greatest guitarist no one has ever heard of!

I got wind of the program and its RIDICULOUS.

If its even semi well played its gonna be a complete freak show.

Basically, its 40 minutes of Bach (choral prelude, all of BWV 995 lute suite, and an entire cello suite)

then the second half is the New World Symphony arr. by Yamashita.

[Steve Lin]

Wow... I saw him once in NY. Very good. Let us know how it goes.

[Section_10]

I think he might play an awesome Ruck, let us know what he plays.

[rdubb]

Well he played a 2005 Humphrey. I could see why. he Dvorak requires some extreme facility above the 12th fret, and the Humphrey raised fretboard must make life easer. I thought the guitar was too bright for my taste...but it was very loud, and balanced.

So Jorge is basically a complete freak. It was like watching Tiger Woods win is 9th open without breaking a sweat. I would liken his level of concentration and awareness in general to that of Woods, or a top Olympic athelete.

40 minutes of Bach, close to flawless. Total harpsichord tempos. The fast movements were beyond fast. Like stupid fast. And completely clean. No memory slips. (choral prelude, then Lute Suite 3 BWV 995, then Violin Sonata 3 BWV 1005)

Then the Dvorak was totally flawless as well. Yamashita wishes he could play like this. But give Y. credit for doing the arrangement, and being the first (well only other person probably) to play it.

I was sitting next to Marc Teicholz.... Marc and I kept looking at each other with that "what the F** was that?" look...and most people here are aware that Marc isn't exactly chopped liver as as player....I can't even process what I saw because it doesnt make sense as to how it was technically possible to play what I was hearing eminating from the instrument.

[cglover]

Sounds like you had a good time. :D

Did you get an audio or video clip of the performance that you would like to share with us?

[nylon6]

I was there too...that was easily the finest guitar playing I have ever seen, and I've seen a lot! (Bream, Williams, Yamashita, Fisk, Russell, Barreuco--you name it!) Even though a few tempos were questionable and to some tastes he over-ornamented the Lute Suite (I loved it!), his playing was so precise and clear. At the same time, he's not just a machine--he played with plenty of passion with a great variety of tone and dynamics. I'm glad I grabbed the front row seats for the Dvorak--I had to see that bad boy up close! It really did defy belief.

Not only is Jorge an astounding player, he's also a great guy! He was very cordial to his well-wishers.

A new king has arrived.

[Mitch]

I saw him perform the Aranjuez Concerto at the Wilshire Ebell somewhere around seven years ago. The place was half-empty (I'm a pessimist). His playing was delightful, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I stood to give him a standing ovation (which makes sense, I suppose), but few people joined me. It made me upset, as it was an outstanding performance. I just clapped more loudly.

He was quite a performer then, so I imagine his stage presence has improved steadily since then.

[rdubb]

I wish I had that on video :)

In actuality, Jorge arrived in 96 when he was 19 and won the Naumberg, but has remained somewhat on the periphery of the "average joe classical guitar concert goer that sees pepe/williams/etc" because he plays difficult programs.

only guitarists and other instrumentalists want to hear 40 minutes of bach , and Dvorak, :lol: Sad really, I think the thing is that he is too good really be famous or well known.

[Section_10]

thats where ive heard of him. The Humphrey. I was about to trade a guitar for somebodies Humphrey and I remember him telling me that he compared the Humphrey to Caballeros and it was better. Although the Ruck he has is the best he's ever heard. I think Caballero has or is working on a recording with the Ruck. I havent heard anything about it yet, I'll post a link if I hear anything about it.

He mentioned what a monster player Caballero is. Hope he's not too technical, we have enough of those Fisks out there, certainly don't need another.

[nylon6]

He's every bit Fisk's technical equal, but he takes fewer chances and plays cleaner. He uses his monster technique for musical purposes. (Not to slight Fisk--he's also one of my favorites!)

[rdubb]

He eats Fisk, and anyone else in the world for breafast and brunch technically.

no one on the planet could pull off a program like that, except for Yamashita in his prime. I'm not sure if people really fully understood how freakish that whole program was truly.

I got into a debate with another teacher friend of mine about how apporpriate it is to play a program like that "even if you can".

He thought that the evening was a monstrosity. Like trying to put a 300 pound man on a trycicle (the Dvorak)....and his Bach tempi were way too fast to be musical in many places, and horrendously over ornamented.

[nylon6]

A lot of this boils down to personal taste. I too thought the Bach was a bit fast at times, but the musical lines were never lost. Yes, it was heavily ornamented, but it was effective in his hands since the complex ornaments flowed so smoothly. No one would ever imagine that BWV 995 was once a cello piece--it sounded more like a French baroque keyboard piece. I happened to enjoy his treatment of it, but I can see that others would not. I absolutely applaud his programming--I get so sick of attending "greatest hits" recitals.

[rdubb]

I agree with you nylon in the sense that I overall enjoyed the program, beyond the "wow what was that" factor.

it was definitely original and brave, and fully pulled off.

I was paraphrasing my friend more than myself, though I shared a bit of his reservations.

[classicalguitar83]

Ok now my curiosity has been sparked. I've never heard of Jorge Caballero and I've tried to research him online (for the past 5 min I should say :) and I've haven't found much....a bio and a rep. listing....but no audio or video. I'm very curious to hear this guy. I can only imagine seeing as how he's young and being positively compared to so many great players.

[nylon6]

Get the new issue of Guitar Review--it has the DVorak as a CD bonus and an interview with him.

[Steve Lin]

Rdubb, Nylon: you've uttered two of my favorite guitarists--Yamashita and Fisk. And they are quite opposite in many, many ways. Their similarities end with unique types of genius and pushing guitar technique to new boundaries. Musically--and programming--they are at opposite ends.

I would have loved to see this JC concert. Maybe we can see if Boston Classical Guitar Society can bring him.

[nylon6]

Rdubb, Nylon: you've uttered two of my favorite guitarists--Yamashita and Fisk. And they are quite opposite in many, many ways. Their similarities end with unique types of genius and pushing guitar technique to new boundaries. Musically--and programming--they are at opposite ends.

I would have loved to see this JC concert. Maybe we can see if Boston Classical Guitar Society can bring him.

He's more controlled than either of these players and has better tone. I suppose I wouldn't mind a bit more passion/risk-taking ala these two (who are also among my favorites), but he's perhaps more "pleasant" to listen to. He's definitely among my favorite players, overall. Super-human technique and profound musicality (despite fast tempos) are hard to resist!!

[strummer]

I am a concert guitarist, competition winner, and sometime concerto soloist. I have studied with Caballero privately even though he is barely older than myself. I know of other high profile young guitarists who also have studied with him on occaision. Jorge is one of those guys in NYC that you go to when your "real teacher" at Jiulliard or Manhattan or wherever can't really help you play the guitar anymore.

I can confirm that he is a truley preeminent guitarist who sets the bar much higher on the global standard of technique and musicianship among guitarists. His recording of the Bach Cello suites is easily one of the 3 most inspired and illuminating guitar recordings ever made. He has an enormous repretoire aided by a photographic memory and the most highly refined perfect pitch you could imagine. Any piece he dosen't already know he can memorize in a sitting. His rhythmic sense is precise and absolute, anyone who has listened to him with score in hand play Carter's Changes or Henze's Royal Winter Music like I have could attest to the same. Although there are perhaps some players with even more effecient left hands, his right hand is a model of near perfection. Does he occaisionally play too fast in concert to fully utilize his musical concepts? Perhaps, but Jorge is no machine.

Why is he not more famous? Firstly, because he plays the guitar and not the violin, cello or piano. The general symphony-subscribing public is aware that classical guitar exists, they gave it a chance with Fisk, Isbin, Parkening and the like and they are not interested. Secondly, I believe he makes it all look so easy that even most intermediate guitarists can take his virtuosity for granted. The difference between greatness and true excellence is often lost on people until someone famous gives them the rubber stamp. Finally, those other pro guitarists who really do know what they are seeing when he plays are often reluctant to annouce it for fear of their own careers.

I say hats off gentleman, Caballero's a genius.

[Richard]

His recording of the Bach Cello suites is easily one of the 3 most inspired and illuminating guitar recordings ever made.
Strummer, you mentioned that he has a recording. Where is it available? Thanks...

[strummer]

If the Bach CD is still available you have to join the Musical Heritage Society CD club to get it. You can probably order the Dvorak CD by phone from Luthier Music in Manhattan. Amazing as it is, the Bach CD is still his best.

[Todd]

Super fast Bach suites and a perfect right hand are surely not

what brings audiences out to see a guitarist.

Thats not why people go to concerts. Thats why GUITARISTS go
to GUITAR concerts.

The general public, want to hear music. They want to be touched in some way.
They dont care how technically perfect you are, or how photographic
you memory is, or wether you have perfect pitch or not.
They dont want to see guitarists showing off
for other guitarists.

They want music.

[strummer]

sounds like sour grapes :wink:

[Section_10]

Super fast Bach suites and a perfect right hand are surely not

what brings audiences out to see a guitarist.

Thats not why people go to concerts. Thats why GUITARISTS go
to GUITAR concerts.

The general public, want to hear music. They want to be touched in some way.
They dont care how technically perfect you are, or how photographic
you memory is, or wether you have perfect pitch or not.
They dont want to see guitarists showing off
for other guitarists.

They want music.

I hope this is right. I watched Eliot Fisk play once and watch as hundreds of "guitarists" sat in awe of his playing. I wanted to grow a thousand hands so I can smack them all at once. Now THAT would be impressive.

Even Bach, though very technical, can be played like music. Compare a technicians version with someone like Enno Voorhoorsts, there is quite a difference.

[Todd]

sounds like sour grapes :wink:

Sour grapes?? Why? Cause i disagree with you?

What are you, like 15 years old or something.

Grow up..

[Todd]

Super fast Bach suites and a perfect right hand are surely not

what brings audiences out to see a guitarist.

Thats not why people go to concerts. Thats why GUITARISTS go
to GUITAR concerts.

The general public, want to hear music. They want to be touched in some way.
They dont care how technically perfect you are, or how photographic
you memory is, or wether you have perfect pitch or not.
They dont want to see guitarists showing off
for other guitarists.

They want music.

I hope this is right. I watched Eliot Fisk play once and watch as hundreds of "guitarists" sat in awe of his playing. I wanted to grow a thousand hands so I can smack them all at once. Now THAT would be impressive.

Even Bach, though very technical, can be played like music. Compare a technicians version with someone like Enno Voorhoorsts, there is quite a difference.

Strummer's not going to like that. Watch out!! He's a "Competition winner"
I think we're supposed to be intimidated or something.
Im not real sure. :lol:

[strummer]

Not trying to intimidate, just trying to give folks some perspective on where I'm coming from. I've heard a lot of really great guitarists over the years at competitions, most of which I lost - it's an education like no other. Don't care for technical Bach? Curious what you think of Glenn Gould...now imagine this on the guitar.

A lot of people are more impressed to hear someone struggle at the limits of their technique than to hear someone casually play at a higher level. It's natural to think something is more difficult and impressive when you see someone having a hard time with it, and to take something for granted when it flows easily no matter how amazing.

[thraex]

Like most of us, I have not heard about Caballero more than in this guitar forum, but if I trust a bit some of the reviews, granting they are subjective at some point, I am already curious to see a good musician withouth technical problems, how else could it be, you can not possibly play musically if you don´t have the tools.
But then there are enough examples of great players with "too many" tools, i.e. Glen Gould, who could reach genious interpretations, together with stupid inconsistencies or idiosyncratic readings.
General public wants to hear the same old things, anything more difficult to understand or to lend attention to, puts them down, specially the guitar concert goers. If he is not more famous is due to more reasons, there is no a scripted way of getting famous, furthermore, not all players have "fame" as the driving force.
Talking about tempi, I think you choose them according to your reading, the accoustics of the place and your heart beats at concert, hence a very difficult thing to criticize, as long as his reading made good sense, being that my impression of the reviewer in this thread.
Good observation about symphonic public, they prefer cello, violin and piano above everything, with good reasons, last night I went to see Bruch´s concerto by a french violinist (21 yrs old) and couldn´t stop dropping tears for long moments, just amazing. I can imagine how a let down would it be to compare players like Fisk, Isbin or Parkening, to equal stature pianists or violinists of their time.

Yes, Enno´s playing of Bach is very touching and correct

[Pumping Carbon]

Could somebody please post a video clip of Mr. Caballero, so we can see what all the fuss is about!

[nylon6]

I am a concert guitarist, competition winner, and sometime concerto soloist. I have studied with Caballero privately even though he is barely older than myself. I know of other high profile young guitarists who also have studied with him on occaision. Jorge is one of those guys in NYC that you go to when your "real teacher" at Jiulliard or Manhattan or wherever can't really help you play the guitar anymore.

I can confirm that he is a truley preeminent guitarist who sets the bar much higher on the global standard of technique and musicianship among guitarists. His recording of the Bach Cello suites is easily one of the 3 most inspired and illuminating guitar recordings ever made. He has an enormous repretoire aided by a photographic memory and the most highly refined perfect pitch you could imagine. Any piece he dosen't already know he can memorize in a sitting. His rhythmic sense is precise and absolute, anyone who has listened to him with score in hand play Carter's Changes or Henze's Royal Winter Music like I have could attest to the same. Although there are perhaps some players with even more effecient left hands, his right hand is a model of near perfection. Does he occaisionally play too fast in concert to fully utilize his musical concepts? Perhaps, but Jorge is no machine.

Why is he not more famous? Firstly, because he plays the guitar and not the violin, cello or piano. The general symphony-subscribing public is aware that classical guitar exists, they gave it a chance with Fisk, Isbin, Parkening and the like and they are not interested. Secondly, I believe he makes it all look so easy that even most intermediate guitarists can take his virtuosity for granted. The difference between greatness and true excellence is often lost on people until someone famous gives them the rubber stamp. Finally, those other pro guitarists who really do know what they are seeing when he plays are often reluctant to annouce it for fear of their own careers.

I say hats off gentleman, Caballero's a genius.

Thank you for this insider's view. I can't imagine what it would be like to take lessons from him. I'd be so intimidated that I'd likely forget my name or even how to tune, much less play something for the man! (Not that he's an intimidating personality--quite the opposite!)

I listened to his Bach CD this afternoon--it really is stunning. Technique, interpretation, and audio quality all unite in a magnificent recording. It's a shame it hasn't been released on a major label.

[Pumping Carbon]

A sample of JC's virtuosity can be hear on New York Public Radio. Scroll down to Program #1820, Sept. 2, 2002. Here is the link:

www.wnyc.org/shows/newsounds/episodes/2002/09

If I find anything else, I will post it.

[rdubb]

sounds like sour grapes :wink:

Sour grapes?? Why? Cause i disagree with you?

What are you, like 15 years old or something.

Grow up..

Actually I think he's about to turn 17. Strummie gets wedgied alot by the jocks, and stuffed into lockers almost every day.

"Poor guy. You know he still wets his bed"
- Uncle Rico (Ok name that movie...........)

[thedrizzle]

I gotta go with todd on this one, I think guitarists, all guitarists, focus too much on the technical aspects of music. don't get me wrong, there has to be solid technique in a performance but the focus has to shift to phrasing, tone, and music in general. It must be something in the brain of guitar players that makes them competitive in the technique aspect. I think guitar players in general need to grow up. I should also mention that when I see a player like Fisk, Barrueco, Williams, etc. my butt cheeks grow together from envy.

[strummer]

Caballero is no automaton, he's just subtle. I actually think most guitarists don't really care for the players out there with intense and focused musicality and virtually imperceptible technical problems. Why doesn't anybody talk about Tilman Hoppstock or Gruber & Maklar CDs? How could we so easily forget, or never even investigate, the LPs of the Abreu Bros.? How can we shrug off heroic performances by Caballero or Azabagic or Krivocapic or Dylla or Su Meng as "just another competition winner who likely spent their childhood locked in a closet by a sadistic guitar teacher"? It's because we can't relate to them. We actually love to see how the high profile, brand-name guitarists wrestle with difficult passages the way we do at home, it adds a human touch. We love that we know how to pronounce their names. Deep down we'd rather celebrate people who attempt pieces than who actually play - or even dominate - them. We'd trade charisma for artistry anyday.

Think of how they used to call Williams a robot. Go back and listen to his LPs from the 60's and 70's today and anyone with a heart and a mind can hear that the man is a deep thinking and feeling musician (or at least was then).

In school we had a thing in guitar seminar we called CCR: can't cut it rubato. Most of what passes for "musicality" in big-name guitarists and lutenists is often eccentric use of rubato to round off the edges of difficult passages. It dosen't take too many years of study to learn how to do it pretty well. This is quite different from musicality as it is understood independent of the guitar - musical decisions and reactions born of the character of the music, not the fact that you need to change position without an open string or a guide finger.

There is a new breed of guitarists who can finally play this way, we need to embrace them, not put them down for their professionalism. If we don't hold them up on our shoulders no one will, the rest of the world considers that the classical guitar died with Segovia.

[rdubb]

Ah man CCR aint credence? back when I was in seminar that meant you were playin' too much credence and it was time to get back to Bach.

Ahhh. Deeep.

time for me as a teacher to try and train the next generation of guitarists that can actually play in time. And for my next trick I'm gonna run the 100 meters in under 2.5 seconds.

[thraex]

I am completely with you there strummer.
I do talk about Tilman Hoppstock, Stephan Schmidt, Frank Bungarten, Stefano Grondona, Halasz, Salazar,Galbraith or Steidl...and have stopped listening to the likes of Bream, Segovia, Fisk and all those who hide their musical and technical shortcomings thru charisma and crazy rubato style playing, that is never musicality.
Hopefully I can listen or watch this Caballero in the near future and put him on the above list.

[strummer]

Bream, Segovia and Fisk all have their place. All three men had very long careers and each of them had great moments - Bream's work with Brittish composers, Fisk's early Baroque recordings, Segovia's artfull use of CCR was often fascinating and inspired. Even Parkening brought something to the table 40 years ago with simply gorgeous tone production - David Russell was listening.

In the end, the total package is largely about programming and content and people putting their whole being into a great night of guitar. When I first saw Jorge in 1996, 20 years old with a borrowed guitar he played:

Da Milano: 6 Ricercares
Bach: Flute Sonata in e (arr. Russell)
Giuliani: Rossinianne

intermission (standing ovation)

Carter: Changes
Barrios: 12 pieces
Ginastera: Sonata

No fluff, no thought of the lowest common denominator, just the best music the guitar has to offer. It was all incredibly well played and exquisitely musical. Compare this with Williams or Pepe's next...yawn...program. These guys can play anything but we'd be lucky to hear them program just one piece with this kind of substance.

Symphony-subscribers are told in program notes that consequential music for guitar dosen't exist and Recuerdos and Koyunbaba are the crown jewels of a repretoire built entirely on salon pieces and folkloric pastiche - the only future for the classical guitar is through assimilation with rock guitarists via forgetable duo tours and CDs and cheesey guitar quartet crossovers conjured up by record label executives. If we promote this dribble too, pretty soon that's all there will be.

3 or 4 years ago at a small church in NYC for less than 100 people Jorge played the complete violin sonatas and partitas of Bach, that's over 2 hours of Bach. I missed the show but heard from very reliable sources that it was amazing - musical, rhetorically complex, articulate and virtuosic Bach with hardly a single note dropped all night.

[thraex]

I don´t discuss those great players merits, achievements and importance to our instrument, of course they have (deservedly) their place, but I meant to say that for the current standard, thankfully they have been left behind by the newer generation pf players, more and more in conservatories, we guitarists are getting more respect as long as we search it thru thoughtful performances, repertoire and honest musicianship, I have that experience in the music world and have yet to find fellow instrumentalists who think lowly of the guitar when confronted to serious musicians who play music, in fact, apart from guitarists, I think other instrumentalists pay so little attention to technical prowess, difficulties, technicalitites etc because the true search is about taking out of the surface the content of a music score, good music is absolute, when played by good musicians, it stops having specifications of instruments.
In particular, I don´t like the pianoforte sound, but there are so many great musicians past and present who play piano, that I can´t resist but listen and going to their concerts, when I do, my ears don´t simply hear piano, or piano music or pianists, but the musical content that those artists present us.

Thankfully, our instrument is finally reaching the pedagogic structure and cropping able musicians who play it, in order to obtain these type of musical experiences of absolute music, regardless of the instrument.
Also, there will always remain a willing public for the salon, and lighter side of the instrument, nothing completely wrong with it, it´s just that I much rather have the former than the later type of performances.

[strummer]

Absolutely, the guitar has arrived. There are now for the first time since the heyday of the lute, guitarists who are complete musicians without quirks, tricks or "solutions". Players who took their music history courses seriously and strive to keep the "classical" ahead of the "guitar" in everything they do. They are counting on us to recognize their achievement first because no one else is listening - yet...

[Steve Lin]

Strummer,

Take Grisha Goryachev (www.grishagoryachev.com) as another example--he's just another one of those guys who the world would love to hear. But, if you don't know who he is, it's because of a combination of extra-musical factors. Maybe it's poor publicity, an indifference to reaching greater audiences, busy doing something else (he's a doctoral student at New England Conservatory) or anything else. He's not short on facility nor soul so he could be and should be filling halls everywhere but it's just something else.

Could we say the same of Jorge? I really want to hear him, but I Google "Jorge Caballero" and wonder why I don't see a good website for the man. (Then there are hacks like me who have websites who couldn't do a tenth of what he does even if I had photographic memory, another hand, another brain and a guitar that could play by itself. :D)


Thraex,

I know a few of those guys: Tilman Hoppstock, Stephan Schmidt, Frank Bungarten, Stefano Grondona, Halasz, Salazar, Galbraith or Steidl (and their works). Remember, most of us here are in the US and by the time those CDs get here they aren't cheap. That, and most of us have never heard them live, which, thank goodness, still counts for a lot. If they come, we'll go see them.

Any of these lesser-known guys would be an easy sell--so, ask some of the artists, "You have something the world should know about--what's keeping you from realizing that potential? "

Passiveness is like cancer inside every artist. The artists who has the charisma and the strength to fight that tumor will be the ones to last.

[strummer]

I've heard Goryachev, he's a great guitarist. He will become well-known in time, no problem. Flamenco sells itself, managers will soon be attracted to him.

Caballero is much more straight ahead high brow classical. Players like him who truly embrace the classical literature need the support of the guitar community - that was the only way Russell was going to make it.

[rdubb]

Unbelivably, Tilman Hoppstock was here in San Francscio last March.

What a treat. Deeply thought out playing, no CCR anywhere in sight, and an extremely warm and generous man behind the playing to boot.

I really have to say how lucky I am to be in the SF Bay Area these days with some very enlightened minds behind the Omni Foundation concerts (actually Richard Patterson and David Tanenbaum mostly....)

[strummer]

If you haven't heard Hoppstock's early recordings, you should get them before you listen to anything else, even the mighty Caballero.

Tilman Hoppstock is actually the guy who made the best classical guitar CDs ever. Angelo Gilardino, for one, has actually said as much. Brouwer described his playing as "total, absolute perfection" - believe it!

Even if Hoppstock's CDs are edited, nobody else with a microphone and a mixer has ever been able to make recordings quite like the ones he made in the early 80's. His chamber music recordings are phenomenal and you can't edit that much, as is his newer live CD Il Giardini del Songo. "El Ultimo Tremolo" is the compilation CD of much of his greatest work on standard rep.

Hoppy really needs his own thread - his own forum. His recording of the Django Variations alone is worth quitting guitar over.

[nylon6]

I saw Hoppstock last March in SF...amazing. I prefer Caballero's programming, but they both perform at a straospheric level. I asked Hoppstock about Wieland-Kurz's I Giardini del Sogno--he said he played it at the premiere, where the recording originates, and never again--it's too hard! :shock: :shock: Actually, as mind blowing as the prospect is that anything would be hard for him, just look at the score! I can barely read it, let alone play it! Much of it is written on two staves, sometimes each in a different time signature (one in 15/32, the other 3/8 ). Just deciphering the notes would be bad enough. His recording of the piece is just breath-taking.

Now back to Caballero before this thread gets completely hijacked!

[Steve Lin]

Strummer, I respectfully disagree--nothing will sell itself in today's world, be it flamenco, whitening toothpaste or an electric car.

As for Jorge, if it is the respect and support of the classical guitar community that he is seeking he may never get the recognition he deserves. This community is just too small.

I should mention: I have heard Jorge once--it was in New York, an evening of concert and tribute to Rose Augustine. Four guitarists were chosen for the event: Jorge Caballero, Antigoni Goni, David Tanenbaum and Scott Tenant. Each played a 25-30 minute set, each spoke briefly about his/her interaction with the legendary lady. Jorge played the Bach Cantata, the Chaconne and something else. It wasn't a very memorable concert, however--the acoustics were awful (it was not a concert hall), the chairs were noisy and uncomfortable, people kept talking, the room was too hot, and so on. His playing was indeed fantastic, the best that evening.

I listened to the broadcast at the WNYC website. Working with composers is one great way to gain new ground, espcially if one of the composers is Terry Riley's son (or nephew?) Chamber music is also a great avenue. Then, at least you'll start spreading through the general music community.

[strummer]

Nylon6 - my comments on Caballero not yet outdoing Hoppstock only relate to some of his recordings, not his live concerts since I have never had the honor of hearing Hoppstock in person - though I very nearly flew to San Fran for the experience.

Steve - it is a quicker ride to the top when you play a whole night of Sabicas rather than a whole night of the Royal Winter Music (as Caballero did for a very confused group at the NYCCGS). People need to be educated and prepared for the latter, the former is self explanitory. Even Bach's music is confusing to many guitar audiences, how many times have you played Bach for someone only to have them comment that it sounds Spanish?! And people do, every so often, make it with the support of the guitar community. David Russell is a case in point.

That's a good story about the benefit for Rose Augustine. It's no surprise his playing was the best of the evening - remember that he won first place over many great guitarists at the 1996 Naumburg competition: Goni, Gallagher, Vieux, Zanon & Izquierdo to name just a few. I remember at Jorge's tiny apartment in Queens he used to have a garbage bag full of Augustine strings in his closet that Rose had given him.

[rdubb]

Wow this thread has turned out to be very interesting and informative. I'm glad that the gsi forum has turned into a place where knowledgeable and dedicated people come to to debate and share opinions and discoveries.

I think its important that we spread the word about people like Hoppstock, Caballero, Steidl, Bungarten, etc.

The fact is all the above mentioned people are technically brilliant, thinkers and risk takers on the interperative level (or actually HAVE an interpretation to begin with....), AND play beautifully.

Yes the public want to hear people play form the heart, beautifully. They should also be given the very best on all other levels and parameters because I believe that information and refinement is absorbed on the subconcious level, and repeated iterations *can* make people more aware. I'm optimistic today!

[Steve Lin]

Strummer,

Sabicas? I can't name a single flamenco guitarist... or classical guitarist who has made it to the top playing Sabicas, except maybe Sabicas. Either way, I don't find anything self-explanatory about flamenco--palmas, compas, falsetas... someone (in fact, Grisha Goryachev) had to teach me about them. The fact that you can tap to a bulerias and not to Winter Music probably only makes flamenco seem more accessible but most people don't even tap in the right places. How many people who claim to love flamenco can actually clap out a bulerias rhythm? How many can actually comprehend what Camaron is singing? Very little of what we do is self-explanatory. (Eliot Fisk will say that's why Barrios is so great for outreach, and he has a point.)

Bach - Spanish. Well, well. You won't believe it but I didn't need to go to a real civilian audience to get that response. A cello professor at NEC said that of my Bach (Adagio + Fugue from Violin Sonata No.1 BWV 1001) back when I was preparing for my senior recital. The violin professor sitting next to him had no problem with my playing though. I'm pretty sure it wasn't me either. Go figure...

[Mark Lim]

[quote="strummer"]David Russell is a case in point.[quote]

How is that? Just curious where you will put David as a guitar player ... with JW, Bream etc.. or the new ones?

[strummer]

Joe Six-Pack (and most of his hot girl friends) chooses flamenco over classical guitar, its a fact. If I had a dollar for every time a jazz guitarist told me that Paco de Lucia's recording of the Aranjuez was the best on record I'd be rich. Give me another dollar for all the people who think that I am a flamenco guitarist after I tell them I'm a classical guitarist and I'll be sending a few billion to the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation.

Many flamenco guitarists just play classical rep too heavy - too much rest stroke, not enough rubato or vibrato, and myopic choice of repretoire. It's like listening to a pianist bang away on a harpsichord. I hope that Goryachev proves an exception.

Man, that cello prof is a moron. That is completely depressing.

sorry this is totally off topic...

[mokotoff]

[quote="strummer"]David Russell is a case in point.[quote]

How is that? Just curious where you will put David as a guitar player ... with JW, Bream etc.. or the new ones?
I took some lessons from him back in the early 80s, he is a terrific guy, with an astouding repertoire and the single most amazing sight reader I have ever met. However, that said, I have no idea why he has a career, or why he won the grammy, I think his playing is very ho hum, not crazy about any of his interpretations or his tone, with the Gilbert he used all the time and now with the Dammann. Maybe something wrong with me, but he just doesn't do anything for me...listening to a lot of these newer players, they all seem far better...

[Todd]

Joe Six-Pack (and most of his hot girl friends) chooses flamenco over classical guitar, its a fact. If I had a dollar for every time a jazz guitarist told me that Paco de Lucia's recording of the Aranjuez was the best on record I'd be rich. Give me another dollar for all the people who think that I am a flamenco guitarist after I tell them I'm a classical guitarist and I'll be sending a few billion to the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation.

Many flamenco guitarists just play classical rep too heavy - too much rest stroke, not enough rubato or vibrato, and myopic choice of repretoire. It's like listening to a pianist bang away on a harpsichord. I hope that Goryachev proves an exception.

Man, that cello prof is a moron. That is completely depressing.

sorry this is totally off topic...

Paco's version is the best. You cant stand that apparently.
You have to admit, it was paradise to hear somebody finally
play the runs in time, like they were written. Its a shame there
are no classical players with Paco's speed and command.
Oh well... :cry:

To offset your flamenco remarks;
Many classical players have absolutely no rhythm, and pitter pat
at the strings like they might bruise a finger, or break a nail.
Rasgueados?? Forget it.
Breaking the pulse to make a clean shift, they're all over that.
Always playing a piece the exact same way, with no variations
in dynamics or tone, and a complete inability to improvise?
Classical players have that down pat.
:lol:

[strummer]

Well Mark, David Russell built his career very slowly on years of playing concerts for guitar societies and winning guitar competitions. No heavy Segovia endorsements (though he sought one), no major management, and for many years no major label. For most great players it seems that winning a ton of competitions is a curse - a curse it perhaps took Russell decades to shake. He always played surprisingly few concertos and chamber music concerts, thus rarely benefitting from patronage outside the guitar world. Finally, the guitar world screamed his name for so many years that the industry finally started to take notice. Was this the best route for him to go, probably not...

Contrast this to the career trajectories of many successful American players who shewdly spent thier time making connections outside of the classical guitar world, where you find much quicker access to resource. Upon graduating from Yale College, one famous guitarist took down the numbers of Yale College Alumni clubs around the world and used them as connections for many of his first international concerts. Two others had populist columns in Guitar Player magazine targeted to hobbyists, this did wonders for their careers. Isbin's brilliant marketing campains and power grabs are infamous.

Where do I place Russell in the great pantheon of players? David Russell comes the closest to having it all - old world style, GFA level chops, and interesting programs most of the time. Russell still wins my vote for best all-round player.

[Mark Lim]

Thanks Strummer for the info. I acutally enjoy listening to David Russell's music. I am not a guitar expert, i dont listen and analyse much, just what my ears like to hear.

[Steve Lin]

I think Joe six-pack and his hotties would be listening to Flamingo Guitar actually. :D

Todd, I love Paco's Aranjuez and I think it's the best! I don't think any of us feel ashamed of that fact. Good music is good music. As for speed and command, Yamashita was always capable. There are quite a few young classical guys now a days who can do it. Artyom Dervoed is one such. Flavio Sala is another. I met both in Siena, Italy. Very scary guys.

Speaking of rhythm, I recently went to a performance of Romani music by KAL. I could not believe how tight the whole band was (drums, percussion, 2 accordions, violin, bass, guitar.) This music was beyond tight, even, as one of the members jokingly said, "uptight." Every downbeat was down, every up was up and everything else fit exactly where it was supposed to. (This music is of course, very closely related to flamenco.) It was amazing. It was so good that it put me in a horrible mood--the generations of discrimination and anger that was expressed in their music instilled some kind of uncomfortable disgust in me.

Someone asked, "Why is all of your music so loud and so fast?"

"My friend," the guitarist responded, "we want to s-c-r-e-a-m." He paused. "We are making a political statement. We live and grow up in the ghetto. This is the music of the ghetto."

Going to go listen to some flamingo guitar now.

[strummer]

the Flamingo Guitar:

http://birdcapo.com/Flamingo.html

Aranjuez recordings? I would say that Paco's is cool for what it is - a legend playing by ear adding a certain rawness, another perspective. But honestly he is out of his element, like hearing Yngwie play the Bach Bourree :twisted: ...have you guys heard Romero/Marriner, Barrueco/Domingo, Russell/Kunzel or Kraft/Ward? These guys play it in time + so much more. Yes, Aranjuez has flamenco elements, the bulerias of the first movt. or the cante hondo of the second, but it is no "flamenco concerto" such as the ones by Torroba or C. Romero, it is an essentially proportional classical concerto which requires restraint to be truly pulled off.

I know Paco is sacred ground for people, but something had to be said here. If we are trying to recommend 1 recording of the Aranjuez to discerning musicians and collectors (or conductors we are trying to convince to take it on) who know nothing of the guitar is it really going to be Paco's?

[Folio]

This has been an interesting thread, I've enjoyed all your insights. I too was at the Omni concert and have reserved commenting because the night left me feeling very conflicted. Ultimately, for me it boils down to the Dvorak was brilliant and the Bach was a train wreck.

Bach is all about humility and if you don't stay true to Soli Deo Gloria you should leave it alone. Ambition is revealed as vanity, and this is what I felt watching Caballero. I should add that I am not a religeous person, but Bach played well (even by amatuers) has always had this power over me (like what they say about atheists in a foxhole.) There is something wrong when listening to a Bach performance breeds ENVY, and this is what it did for me and my other guitarist friends that were there. Is it right to blame Jorge for this? I'm still conflicted.

...wanted to get that in before this devolves into a flamenco vs classical war...

BTW, I'm starting an art punk side project, "Crazy Rubato". Look for our cd at your local head shop.

[nylon6]

This has been an interesting thread, I've enjoyed all your insights. I too was at the Omni concert and have reserved commenting because the night left me feeling very conflicted. Ultimately, for me it boils down to the Dvorak was brilliant and the Bach was a train wreck.

Bach is all about humility and if you don't stay true to Soli Deo Gloria you should leave it alone. Ambition is revealed as vanity, and this is what I felt watching Caballero. I should add that I am not a religeous person, but Bach played well (even by amatuers) has always had this power over me (like what they say about atheists in a foxhole.) There is something wrong when listening to a Bach performance breeds ENVY, and this is what it did for me and my other guitarist friends that were there. Is it right to blame Jorge for this? I'm still conflicted.

...wanted to get that in before this devolves into a flamenco vs classical war...

BTW, I'm starting an art punk side project, "Crazy Rubato". Look for our cd at your local head shop.

By "train wreck" do you mean too fast and over-ornamented? Otherwise, that phrase implies a lot of mistakes, which is absolutely not accurate! He simply has a different view of the music, which does not make his interpretation right or wrong...just "different"! Who's to say how Bach intended it to be played? Besides, even at Jorge's fast tempos, I could hear every line. The man's ability to articulate counterpoint at a high speed is remarkable. You obviously have a different, and probably equally valid approach, but that shouldn't negate Jorge's vision.

Thanks for getting the thread back on track. Russell fans, start your own thread!

[Section_10]

I'm not so sure about all this......playing something different just for the sheer isolation is not necessarily a good thing. Don't you think some players will do something largely contrast just to stand out from the other players? If so, this is ego, not music.
If you take a romantic piece and play it like a modern piece, whats that saying? You took away the romance just to stand out....
You could just say it's interpretation but removing the tango from a tango defeats the purpose doesn't it?

It doesn't matter what Bach initially intended for, Honestly I never met the man, but the music he left behind is all you need to see how it should be played. Thats what musical discernment is. Don't abuse it.

[83Reyes]

I'm not so sure about all this......playing something different just for the sheer isolation is not necessarily a good thing. Don't you think some players will do something largely contrast just to stand out from the other players? If so, this is ego, not music.
If you take a romantic piece and play it like a modern piece, whats that saying? You took away the romance just to stand out....
You could just say it's interpretation but removing the tango from a tango defeats the purpose doesn't it?

It doesn't matter what Bach initially intended for, Honestly I never met the man, but the music he left behind is all you need to see how it should be played. Thats what musical discernment is. Don't abuse it.

Hear hear! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Lawrence

[nylon6]

All he did was play a few movements at a faster than normal tempo and add a lot of ornaments--it still sounded "baroque"! And I don't think he did it to isolate himself or simply because he "could"--it was his artistic intention.

[Section_10]

All he did was play a few movements at a faster than normal tempo and add a lot of ornaments--it still sounded "baroque"!

nothing against Jorge btw, Havent heard him play. I meant that in general. adding ornaments and all that is fine, its nice to hear actually, thats why their called ornaments. But I meant for all players in general including ourselves to watch as we play and change things. Always ask why you do such. Is it to stand out or out of feeling, you'd be surprised how many times you fool yourself.

[Mark Lim]

Have a listen to this guy play Bach prelude BWV 998 at train speed http://philiphii.com/recordings/newtranscriptions.html

What are your opinions on this. I am not an expert but i really dislike it. It feels as though the music has been ruined. What do you all think?

[thraex]

A parenthesis from Caballero to answer you Mark Lim:
Hii´s musicianship as showed on his recordings is nule, I think that.
He plays fast, unphrased and untasteful Bach.
For me good technique would mean that I hear him playing without the feeling of almost falling into the abyss, his sound quality is below his average (not a good average, anyway) in several sections.
I had like 4 years without listening this CD, you let me the opportunity to re-affirm my reasons to not listen to it :)

Cheers

[Section_10]

Have a listen to this guy play Bach prelude BWV 998 at train speed http://philiphii.com/recordings/newtranscriptions.html

What are your opinions on this. I am not an expert but i really dislike it. It feels as though the music has been ruined. What do you all think?

Excellent example Mark! I won't judge all of him but this particular piece (998) shows absolutely no understanding of what music is.
You don't have to argue over whether he played it clean or not, what point is that if he's fails to make the music.
It's like bragging you found a rope to pull your friend up from a cliff after he's already fallen.

[nylon6]

Fortunately, he plays the Fugue at a normal tempo--but he takes the allegro at quite a clip. Overall, this is the worst performance on the CD.

[rdubb]

Ah the irony. And Caballero played Hii's transcription of ""Nun Komm' der Heiden Heiland" BWV 659 from that same Hii CD.

And light years better than Hii, although from the sound samples Hii's playing on this piece is much more musical and tolerable than the Prelude bwv 998.

[nylon6]

The Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue sounds pretty decent...and darn hard to play! Hubert Kappell also plays it...no doubt with better feeling, but Hii's isn't bad. Caballero would really make something of it! Notice how I keep trying to get back on topic? :lol:

[Steve Lin]

That Flamingo Guitar looks fantastic! No wonder Joe and the ladies love it. Anyone who can play that Flamingo Guitar in public will get my utmost respect. If you play some Bach on it then you get upgraded to life-long unconditional respect. Thanks strummer!

[rdubb]

This thread has to get to 10 pages at least. back to the original topic...for those who were there what did you think of the encore piece at Jorge's concert in SF?

[nylon6]

This thread has to get to 10 pages at least. back to the original topic...for those who were there what did you think of the encore piece at Jorge's concert in SF?

I thought he played it beautifully and made a fitting close to a program of fireworks. What else was left to play--some Paganini Caprices? He said it was an Argetinian folk song that he arranged...had the word "cancion" in the title. Frankly, I'm not a big fan of that repertoire, but one could hardly imagine it being better played.

[strummer]

I just can't believe it is taking so long for Jorge to get noticed, that's really the craziest part. I mean, the Naumburg prize is supposed to make you a star, that's what it has done for almost all of the instrumentalists and singers who have won it (Upshaw, Salerno-Sonenberg, Wincenc, Andres Diaz, Pacifica 4tet, etc.). Jorge won that thing 10 years ago and no one seemed to care - is it because guitarists have never heard of the Naumburg and others simply don't like the guitar? Makes you wonder if competitions really do do anything for people.

[alter Ton]

Not everyone who wins a competition becomes famous (my wife knows two of the winners form the Naumburg and neither is well known outside of diehard fans of their respective instruments), and those that do don't necessarily become equally famous (how many winners are really as famous as Nadja Salerno-Sonneberg or Dawn Upshaw). That's true of all competitions, not just the Naumburg. I know the professor at a local university (a state school not a conservatory) won the Naumburg, and although he has a career in music, he's not what you would call famous.

I think the Naumburg is relatively unknown among guitarists simply because the guitar has been the chosen instrument once whereas all the other string instruments (and voice) have been cycled for years.

Jorge definitely seems to have a devoted following by those "in the know" and he is still young, so there is plenty of opportnity for him to acquire fame.

[Folio]

By "train wreck" do you mean too fast and over-ornamented? Otherwise, that phrase implies a lot of mistakes, which is absolutely not accurate! He simply has a different view of the music, which does not make his interpretation right or wrong...just "different"! Who's to say how Bach intended it to be played?


By train wreck I meant that it was spectacular and engrossing to watch, but that I was left with an ill feeling afterwards. I would never say that it was too fast or too ornamented, though I challenge anyone who was there to argue that it was not distracting. As a guitarist it is impossible not to be distracted, but for that I don't blame Jorge. Whether or not you follow Bach scholarship or care what is written about the music, Bach himself gave one clear instruction, and that is what I feel was missing in the perfomance.

I'll add, it's never a bad idea too give some controversial performances early in your career. And, Jorge is in a different world than Hii, that should be made clear.

I liked the the encore very much...he should tell that other gaucho Jorge in NYC to stop trying to write Brazillian music. :evil:

[Mark Lim]

Ok sorry guys and gals, i am not trying to jump this thread. It is a bit related. That day i referred to Hii's prelude, i now stumbled across this guy who played it as good as it gets and done tastefully and musically. It really touched me and i dont even know who in the world he is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDhv2f2mweE&mode=related&search=

[BenB]

I have heard his recording of the Bach Cello Suites and it is very good. I think it is pretty hard to find and my friend only got it by chance through a local luthier, John Price.

I may upload some samples if everyone is still desperate to hear him.

[rdubb]

You need to become a member of the Musical Heritage Society to get that disc. Membership costs nothing, apparently.

Since its not out of print, I don't think it would be kosher to up samples.