Spanish Cedar Neck Vs Mahogany Neck

[patti]

Please help me understand the two and what the properties are if anyone knows. Thanks for your help.

So sorry need to add - for Classical Guitar

[hcrunyon]

I have three good flamenco guitars: a high-end Córdoba, a Conde, and a Bruné (from Evanston, IL--and my best guitar, I think). The two Spanish ones have traditional cedar necks. When Richard Bruné made the guitar that I got from him, he used mahogany for the neck and put a stringer of ebony down its middle, in back. His reasoning was that the stiffened mahogany neck, being denser (and therefore heavier) than cedar, would give the guitar more sustain. I think he also thought that the mahogany/ebony would be stiffer than cedar and therefore slower to change shape with periodic drying and dampening of the fingerboard. The body is very lightly built of cypress and spruce, so when you pick the guitar up, most of its weight seems to be in its neck. It does have a sensational sound. But the other two guitars also sound quite good, so I can't offer a strong opinion about neck material. I'd ignore it if looking at finished guitars, and just pick the one that suited my fingers and ears and eyes better. If ordering a custom I'd probably say "yes" again to mahogany, just because the argument for it seems to make sense.

Howard Runyon
northern NY

[acousticartist]

The so called "Spanish Cedar" used by many traditional classical and flamenco guitar makers for the necks is not really Cedar, but a form of Mahogany. It is called "Cedar" because it has a strong Cedar like aroma and is often use for cigar humidors. It is more properly known as "Cedrela". It isn't even actually Spanish, but South American. It may weigh a bit less than other forms of mahogany making it desirable for use in guitars, but nowadays people are using other forms of mahogany instead because Cedrela is on the CITES list as being endangered. I learned that on a vist to Kenny Hills shop. He actually had a guitar where the back and sides were made of "Spanish Cedar" and the top was cedar. It smelled amazing! You can look up Cedrela on Wikipedia and get some more info... I don't know of anyone who acutally uses cedar as the material for necks... I don't think that its mechanical properties are up to that as far as stability and strength goes.

[Pepe Vergara]

Cederela Odorata or Spanish cedar does not meet any of the criteria of Phase I or II evaluated by CITES. You may be confused with mahogany, which I think has been considered for evaluation, not declared a protected species yet.

http://www.cites.org/eng/prog/criteria/1st_meeting/trees.shtml

Spanish cedar is easy to work and carve and it is very light when compred to mahoganies. That is the mean reason it is used for necks.

http://www.traffic.org/mahogany/us.html

[Techmanac]

how about the sound

[Pepe Vergara]

I have not used it for back and sides, only for necks. I have had a set in my shop for the last three years with the hope to build a flamenco out of it. I did see Kenny's Spanish cedar guitar somewhere. I would presume the guitar would be very light and with a open and vibrant sound, not deep or dark. I like Mahogany back and sides for folk music and some flamenco.

[acousticartist]

According to Wikipedia, Cedrela Odorata is now CITES listed... but I really don't know... perhaps Wikipedia is in error, it wouldn't be the first time.... :?

[Pepe Vergara]

CITES is not IUCN.
There are many groups of conservationist that seek to protect the environment.
They may have different criteria than Cities.


http://www.iucnredlist.org/

[Pepe Vergara]

... perhaps Wikipedia is in error, it wouldn't be the first time.... :?

That is true. Remember that Wikipedia gets its information among other things from people like you and me!! Just humans! :cry:

[C. Vega]

Post deleted.

[johnguitar]

The "cedar" used for necks is much more stable than any other wood, especially mahogany. If you use a healthy, radially sawn piece, properly seasoned and of the right dimensions your neck will never warp up or down. Healthy of course means, among other things, monitoring the piece for warpage over the years that you are drying it.

John Ray

[hcrunyon]

from Johnguitar:

"If you use a healthy, radially sawn piece, properly seasoned and of the right dimensions your neck will never warp up or down."

In principle, maybe, given constant humidity. But as humidity goes up and down the fingerboard gains and loses moisture faster than the neck, because it has a lot of exposed surface that's unfinished. So in high humidity your action will be lower than in dry conditions, in which the fingerboard shrinks and pulls more relief into the neck. I notice this on all of my guitars, including my Bruné--in which all of the wood was chosen with care and had been seasoned for decades.

[83Reyes]

hcrunyon,

I'd imagine John knows what he's talking about as well.

I'm grateful to read his contributions here.

Lawrence

[hcrunyon]

Did my last posting seem disrespectful? If so, I'm sorry. Just trying to share what I've learned.


Howard Runyon

[daniel711]

The "cedar" used for necks is much more stable than any other wood, especially mahogany. If you use a healthy, radially sawn piece, properly seasoned and of the right dimensions your neck will never warp up or down. Healthy of course means, among other things, monitoring the piece for warpage over the years that you are drying it.

John Ray
I'm surprised to hear that! I thought Mahagony was denser and heavier than Spanish cedar, and therefore stronger. It is used almost exclusively on steel string necks because of its strength. So, when classical makers opt to use it, isn't it primarily for strength and stability? Most, if not all, of the Australian makers use Mahagony for their necks. But for very lightly built guitars, I would presume that the heavier Mahagony may have a deadening effect on the sound...

[jfrench]

You're right that Spanish Cedar is lighter than Mahogany (by about 15% on average). Each piece of wood has its own characteristics, but overall Spanish Cedar is more stable than Mahogany though Mahogany has more strength.

That is, Spanish Cedar is less susceptible to movement caused by changes in humidity and is less likely to warp. It also makes good back braces and linings.

[cool9]

I think my Kenny Hill neck is Indian Cedar. I don't know what that is.

The neck wood wouldn't have any effect on the sound. The neck wood is strictly picked for expansion/contraction properties (ie. you don't want the neck to expand or contract in any way, in any environment).

(I'm not sure what electric guitar necks are made of although I've played a few and most contain truss rods.)

[aarongreen]

I use both Spanish Cedar and Mahogany in my guitars and have yet to notice a stability difference in the final instrument. I am quite picky when it comes to neck wood so that is probably enough to keep me out of trouble. I have also been using a carbon fiber rod in the neck and while that won't keep a lousy neck from warping, I think it adds some measure of stability.

I have not noticed a tonal difference in the final guitar that I can attribute to either neck wood. IMO it always come down to how the individual parts are working together as a whole that makes the difference. Having said that, for cedar/rosewood guitars I tend to use mahogany and for blancas I tend to stick to cedar, for the weight or lack thereof. Overall I would say I prefer cedar, it's easier to work, smells great and it is easier to obtain in high quality.

The lumber yard I get my cedar from will usually pull out a few giant pallets of 16/4 (4 inch thick) beams for me to pick from. I can get a few years worth of necks, tailblocks, bracing, linings etc.. from a single beam. I have bought mahogany in the same dimentions (4 inches thick, 2 feet wide and 16 feet long, perfectly quartered the whole length) before and nearly bought the farm doing it. Damn near crushed me when I pulled it out of the stack leaning up against the wall. Thankfully a friend heard me and came to the rescue.

[patti]

just wanted to thank you all for taking the time to post on this thread. as i am new to this site, i appreciate the insight you have shared with me - i have received a lot of positive feedback and you have given me some ideas/areas to pursue. thanks so much and i look forward to positive dialogue with you all in the future....thanks again... :D

[Hill Guitar]

Necks in Hill Guitars are either Spanish cedar or mahogany.

The neck can have alot of effect on the sound produced. It contains a large amount of mass and resonates. It is not inert. It certainly does not have as much to do with the sound production as the top.

A practical experiment touching a tuning fork to the head of the instrument demonstrates this integration. Looking at the construction of the sitar, you can see the acknowledgement of this resonance with the additional sound chamber attached to the head. A solid body electric hung by a wall hanger supporting the head will produce more acoustic resonance from the wall when strummed than it does when held by the player.

Since wood is a cellular material designed to acquire and transmit water, it will always do this to some degree. Consequently, it is subject to the amount of moisture in the air, and will expand or contract accordingly. Dry, seasoned and finished woods will do this less than green wood, and different species will do it in different degrees, but wood was designed with carrying moisture in mind.

Larry Darnell