What rock guitarist know that we don't cont...

[racer_x]

I wanted to state that even some so called rock players have trouble picking up and just jamming with anyone too. I think it has to do with players who spent way way too much time learning other bands songs versus just learning how to play around chords and so forth. So many other guitar players I jammed with could not free jam with a 1+4+5 progression to save their life.
But they know every Metallica song backwards and forward. Very interesting topic. I remember when I was starting to play I would practice to background tracks all the time. I would put the scale/mode book on a stand and change my positions with the key changes on the background track. I did this a lot along with training my ear, which I think is more of a natural thing for some lucky people. Not to rip on some instructors, but most that I had during my youth could never clarify how scales and modes worked. They always just confused me. One teacher told me to learn my mode positions in one key and then all you have to know is where to shift for the other keys. For me that being so simple really worked as far as playing in key. Most instructors do not clarify the simple things when teaching. Improv is more about feel IMHO than theory though. I still have so much left to learn about music theory that I don't know If I could ever really have a 100% grip on it ever. I would conclude that I believe there are tons of horribly written books on theory out there and even more instructors that should not be teaching. Finding the best method is different for each of us however. Great topic Libre. I started a new thread because yours was getting a mile long.

[Great Googly Moogly]

So true how so many teachers are getting people all whacked out with all of this scale/mode business. Just the fact that people go around referring to scales and modes as two separate things is enough to demonstrate the massive confusion. Words like "mode positions" is another one; as if modes have anything to do with "positions" on the fretboard. I'd like someone to show me the "mode positions" on the piano if there is such a thing. Anytime I hear someone say "I've learned all my modes" or "I'm practicing my modes," I know how confused they've become. Good point, Racer.

[Tony Hyman]

I was always under the impression that the modes were names given to scales starting on different degrees of the major and minor scales as commonly used and then I went to Wikepedia to see where these names like Dorian and Lydian come from and I understand that they were specific pattern written to motivate the ancient Greek soldiers certain patterns would
be happier sounding and others sadder whatever the case may be.I just
find it strange that standard notation that I have looked at dose not refer
to these modes as they are currently written.To me they are a little like
guitar tabs ,and end to a means but I have yet to do any session or gig
where the ask or write a particilar mode or tab instead of just writing or saying play the scale of C Major starting on the medient (e) though one
octive.I stand to be corrected of course.When jamming the Electric in Blues
I have found the normal scales to be quite adequate you must just use your
ears and shift those major and minor scales around a bit using a 12 bar
back track.Just trust your soul and ears and let yourself go if nothing specific
is written.

[belle111]

guitarists have their moods...
modes and scales are synonymous.....they differ in the order of the whole steps and half steps....


http://www.aboutplayingguitar.com

[Great Googly Moogly]

When jamming the Electric in Blues
I have found the normal scales to be quite adequate you must just use your
ears and shift those major and minor scales around a bit using a 12 bar
back track.Just trust your soul and ears and let yourself go if nothing specific
is written.When soloing in the blues, though, you have to at least incorporate the flatted 3rd and flatted 7th and usually the flatted 5th in your scale. Since these notes are not flatted in the accompanying chords, they create tensions and these tensions are needed for achieving the blues sound. This is also true in jazz, rag time, rock, and some country and blue grass. Most guitarists will use the minor pentatonic against the major key (A minor pentatonic against the key of A major for example) giving them the flatted 3rd and 7th they're looking for. When the flat 5 is added to this, it becomes "the blues scale" that most guitarists are familiar with. If you look up "the blues scale" in the Harvard Dictionary of music, though, it will list a ten note scale, consisting of all seven notes of the major scale with the flatted 3rd, 5th and 7th added. If you wanted to use one of the modes of the diatonic scale for the blues, Dorian could work (A Dorian against the key of A major) since it also, like the minor pentatonic, provides the flat 3rd and 7th, but your solo will sound more like a jazzy sort of blues, I think. Jazz players fall back on Dorian all the time if they ever get lost in the middle of a solo. It's a good standby. Mixolydian is another one (which is what bag pipes use, by the way) and offers only the flatted 7th. But I'm not a jazz guy.

[Great Googly Moogly]

guitarists have their moods...
modes and scales are synonymous.....they differ in the order of the whole steps and half steps....The only time the word "scale" is used differently is when it's used in the context of "the diatonic scale", "the pentatonic scale", or "the chromatic scale". The word "scale", in this context, has nothing to do with a mode.

[Tony Hyman]

Thanks for that Locust .What I found purely by accident that if the blues sequence is say 12 bar or what ever and the chords where E7 -A7-B7 for example that by simply jamming in the major scale a tone down from the E
therefore D major seems to work for my ear even the 3rds and 6's work
the G natural and the 7th D and even the 9th F# you can wail away and hit very few bumb notes.This seems to work in all keys using 1 IV V major dom7
chords or 9ths.But the possibilities are endless.

[Great Googly Moogly]

Thanks for that Locust. What I found purely by accident that if the blues sequence is say 12 bar or what ever and the chords where E7 -A7-B7 for example that by simply jamming in the major scale a tone down from the E therefore D major seems to work for my ear . . . even the 3rds and 6's work; the G natural and the 7th D and even the 9th F#.That is excellent! You're doing the exact thing I was referring to in my post. You're using Dorian. By visualizing the major scale a whole step below the key you're in, you're actually putting yourself in Dorian. In your particular case, the G natural is your flatted 3rd and the D natural is your flatted 7th. What most blues and rock players do, though, is toggle back and forth between the minor pentatonic (or blues scale) and the major pentatonic. In other words, in the key of E (E7, A7, & B7), they would go back and forth between E minor pentatonic and E major pentatonic. Those two scales combined are 8 notes in all, a lot like Dorian.

[Guitar Slim]

Racer X makes a good point about learning from records. I think it depends on how you go about it. Approached a certain way, and you're doing basically what a lot of CGers do -- just learning the notes by rote.

But when I took up the electric and started learning from records, I was always trying to learn licks, figure out how they worked within a chord progression -- and then take them out of the context of that specific song and apply them to other songs in other keys when a similar sequence of chords was used. Great practice, I think.

And this brings up another point about jamming and creating solos. Just playing scales can be pretty boring. I look at the scales as the building blocks with which you create interesing licks -- licks that use interval leaps and string bends and interesting rhythms, etc. In fact, since my theory is kind of hazy, I often picked up on licks that I really didn't understand how they worked theoretically. I just knew that they sounded sweet in certain situations. To me it's all about those sweet licks, so I tried to build my solo vocabulary on cool licks, rather than scales.

Of course, understanding the scales the licks are built on and how they fit in with the harmony is definitely important, and an area where I still need work :oops:

[Great Googly Moogly]

. . . when I took up the electric and started learning from records, I was always trying to learn licks, figure out how they worked within a chord progression -- and then take them out of the context of that specific song and apply them to other songs in other keys when a similar sequence of chords was used. Great practice, I think.

And this brings up another point about jamming and creating solos. Just playing scales can be pretty boring. I look at the scales as the building blocks with which you create interesing licks -- licks that use interval leaps and string bends and interesting rhythms, etc. In fact, since my theory is kind of hazy, I often picked up on licks that I really didn't understand how they worked theoretically. I just knew that they sounded sweet in certain situations. To me it's all about those sweet licks, so I tried to build my solo vocabulary on cool licks, rather than scales.I think what Slim says is very true. The best of jazz soloists have a library of "ii V I" (two, five, one) licks that they pull out of their hats every time a "ii V I" progression comes up. The jazz players who are able to draw from their library of "ii V I" licks always seem to sound the jazziest. The particular licks that we, as players, become accustomed to using are definitely signature of our backgrounds and playing styles, there's no doubt about it. That's why whenever a blues player stands in on a jazz solo, he always sounds like a blues guy playing jazz. Or whenever a rock guitarist stands in on a blues solo, he always sounds like a rock guy playing blues.

. . . In fact, since my theory is kind of hazy . . . :oops:I find that my theory is even kind of "Hayes"y at times.

[Jonny Hotnuts]

I learned from the school of shred guitar.
I often had people say something on the lines of "your as good as Vai!!!"
I would reply, "you are only as good as the songs you write....just because I can play Vai's work does not make me as good."

I still pick up an electric for kicks every now and again....
Those were the days!

-JH

[brian richardson]

how did the race go jonny??

[Glenn]

I've been playing CG for 8 about years and have been switching gears lately so I can rock out and play some blues. I think one thing that CG players take for granted is the ability to play good rhythm guitar. From what I'm learning a good solo guitar player is a good rhythm player. You don't have to learn complex rhytms for blues and rock but to be able to play the same progression or riff over and over is not as easy as it seems. That in itself takes a lot of discipline that pure CG players don't understand. I purchased a Taylor, a Hamer XT series, and a Gretsch 5120 in the last few months so I can have a rockin' good time with different types of guitars!

[cgram@adelphia.net]

I find that players who improvise using the so-called Berklee Method, ie learning fundamental scales and their modes in every possible position and key, often sound very boring and derivative. It's often more melodic to improvise thinking in triads, relative chords and tonal centers, etc. Every great jazz player has his own way of going about it, Pat Martino, for example, famously uses only one minor tonality and just plays it in different keys over different chords. You can pretty much call any group of notes, whether it be a scale, chord, arp., etc., anything, depending on the context. The most obvious example is relative major and minor, where an a minor 7 becomes a c major, for example.