How do you tie your strings?

[cglover]

I ran across a comment in another forum from a poster named "Prominent Critic" and thought it would make for an interesting topic.

He stated: "In looking at these pictures (picture of guitars posted by other forum members) I have noticed that many of these guitars have the bass strings tied on with a single loop. I have discussed this subject with famous concert guitarists, and all of those with whom I have spoken have agreed with me that the best way to tie on bass strings is with at least a double loop or even a triple loop, just like the trebles. Go under three times, and make sure the last loop is fixed behind the bridge for security. Since sound is produced by the vibration of the top, and the top only vibrates when the vibrations of the strings are transmitted to it, it is important to have as much integrity as possible between the string and the bridge. A single loop will result in something of a loss of potency in the bass.

What do you guys think about a loss of potency in the bass?

I'm not so sure about this. I personally tie a single loop for my basses to save the wear and tear on my bridge, and triple loop my trebles for security so the strings dont slip. I've done it this way for at least the past 20 years without really giving it a second thought.

So, how do you tie your strings, and whats your reasoning behind why you do it the way you do it?

[DJH]

Hi cglover,

I do the same as you (on a conventional classical guitar bridge) and I change strings for a lot of other people.
I've found that even just double-looping the bass strings can have an adverse effect on the break-angle over the saddle (i.e. raising the point from which the string leaves the bridge to arrive at the saddle) which, logically, means less down-force and a change in the transmission of energy to the saddle. This *might* be a good thing if the break-angle was too acute in the first place, but this is very rare.
I always figured that a double or triple loop is necessary on the trebles (especially those Savarez KF) but unnecessary on the basses. It seems to me that if the string isn't slipping after being tied, you are not going to be able to improve the "potency in the bass" with how the string is attached.

Now I'm probably asking to be shot down in flames here, but the cited poster's reference to "famous concert guitarists" is a maybe the weakest point in his argument. It is rare to come across very gifted musicians who have a good understanding of the mechanical side of their instrument. Don't know why. Very right-brain influenced, less logical?
One guy had string ends 40mm long buzzing against the belly, but he played like dream. I'd take lessons in guitar-playing with him, but not in how to change strings.
Still I'd love to know if anyone has a solid reason for avoiding the single loop on the basses.

Dominic

[Guitar Slim]

I'm not sure I understand how the number of times you loop the string on the tie block is supposed to influence the string-break angle. However, it seems like the whole traditional method of stringing might have a negative influence, since there's a loop that goes under the string and might pull the string up and away from the saddle a bit if there's a some play in the hole the string goes through.

I'm old school. Double loops work fine on the the trebles as long as the tails are low enough to "catch" on the tie blocks. Single loops on the basses.

At the rollers, I don't double thread any of the strings. For the trebles, I loop the tail once or twice around and underneath string so they "catch" and don't slip. The bases just get threaded through once and nothing fancy -- the winding prevents them from slipping.

Anyone have one of those two-hole tie blocks? They're supposed to improve the string-break angle, aren't they?

[DJH]

Guitar Slim wrote :
«I'm not sure I understand how the number of times you loop the string on the tie block is supposed to influence the string-break angle. However, it seems like the whole traditional method of stringing might have a negative influence, since there's a loop that goes under the string and might pull the string up and away from the saddle a bit if there's a some play in the hole the string goes through.»

That's what I meant; sorry if my post wasn't very clear.

Put a triple loop on a heavy gauge low-E string and not only does it pull the string way up from the hole, but it can pull the string off to one side.

The twelve-hole (or eighteen-hole) tie-blocks do help in this respect. So far I haven't come across any negative-side to them, apart from people not being used to them and being more "at home" stringing-up on a conventional bridge.

Dominic

[brian richardson]

i only have one loop
around the string. the end of the string at the bridge
points almost straight up
i haven't seen too many people tie
them this way. it's the only way i've ever known.
i've seen breams strings tied this way and i'm
pretty sure david schramm's(sp) web site shows this method
as well.
it's fast and the strings can't slip causing the 'obligatory'
string dings behind the bridge.
if i could, i'd post the link but, i'm a spaz

[Mister Lovaguitara]

I have an 18 hole bridge on my guitar and I love it! it holds the strings great, has no issues and gives a much more elegant look. I don't think there's a chance in the world the strings could slip. I also burn I small ball end onto the end of the treble strings using a lighter to make sure thay cannot slip. I did this with the regular bridge as well. it only takes a few second and I think it's worth it. as for the basses on a regular bridge I agree with the above - I also use a single loop and have always found it the best in all aspects. especially in easy of stringing.
here is the link the Schramm's (it's right) stringing method
http://www.schrammguitars.com/stringingmethod.html
I suppose spaz means lazy? (-:

[brolio]

I have always put two loops on the basses and three on the trebles with the final end of string behind the bridge. The only times I have tried to get away with less it seemed the strings were more likely to go out of tune. I think it is important to guide the string/loops while tuning up the first time to keep the loop from getting stuck too far forward and to pull the end of the string as well. It also helps to guide the tuning machine end of the string so you do not scratch the headstock as you turn the heads.

I might just try the two loop on the trebles next set. Though I would not suggest this on the smoother strings, like Alliance trebles. And leave a long leader at the bridge end until the string is completely set.

[brian richardson]

I have an 18 hole bridge on my guitar and I love it! it holds the strings great, has no issues and gives a much more elegant look. I don't think there's a chance in the world the strings could slip. I also burn I small ball end onto the end of the treble strings using a lighter to make sure thay cannot slip. I did this with the regular bridge as well. it only takes a few second and I think it's worth it. as for the basses on a regular bridge I agree with the above - I also use a single loop and have always found it the best in all aspects. especially in easy of stringing.
here is the link the Schramm's (it's right) stringing method
http://www.schrammguitars.com/stringingmethod.html
I suppose spaz means lazy? (-:



thanks lovaguitara-
nope that link wasn't it. close but, the end of the string
winds up pointing away from the bridge. it doesn't end up laying on the guitar top. thanks anyway bro!!
nah, spaz means kinda uncoordinated and this applies to
my awful computer skills.(i.e not posting a link)

**EDIT***
the way he shows the trebles being tied IS the way i do all six strings.
4. "stringing method visual tutorial" on his home page.
one down from lovaguitars link

[MPD]

One caution for Savarez Alliance neophyte users with these bridges would be to knot the end of the trebles. These slippery devils have a tendancy to pull through the bridge wrap and launch! A small knot pulled up tightly, with the excess clipped (or melted), avoids this. I've not viewed David S's webpage but maybe he covers this.

[symodiezel]

One piece of masking tape the length of the bridge, place strings on top of bridge, apply accurately measured tape, press really hard to get 100% stick, strings aint going anywhere!

[brian richardson]

One piece of masking tape the length of the bridge, place strings on top of bridge, apply accurately measured tape, press really hard to get 100% stick, strings aint going anywhere!

WHAT???
that's silly, just a dab of crazy glue on the end
of each string and attach to soundboard.
preferably french polished tops as this will melt
through the polish and attach firmly to the wood.
replace sound board as necessary when changing strings.

[oc chuck]

http://emedia.leeward.hawaii.edu/frary/changing_strings.htm
Changing Classical Guitar Strings
From Frary Classical Guitar.

Towards the bottom of this page, Frary uses a knot ( or 2 for the trebles ) and slips the string straight through
the bridge like a ball end folk string. The knots don't look very
good, but the tie block is clean and you get the same break as a 12 or 18 hole bridge.
Does anyone do this? I might try it the next time I change
strings.

From the schramm guitars web page on tying strings to the roller:
Note, too, that you should wind the string to the outside. You can't damage anything that way, but you can cause problems by winding to the inside.

I wind to the inside to get a straighter break from the
nut to the roller. Don't know if it makes any difference
in tone, just thought it makes sense.

I'd like to hear any comments about these two ways to
tie at the bridge and roller.........

[symodiezel]

WHAT???
that's silly, just a dab of crazy glue on the end
of each string and attach to soundboard.
preferably french polished tops as this will melt
through the polish and attach firmly to the wood.
replace sound board as necessary when changing strings.


LOL, now youre going overboard, ......i dont have french polish, ......so instead of using crazy glue i substituted staple gun, place strings to sounboard and staple them, youll find that wood is a natural material for a staple so no slippage! No need to pull old strings out on string change, just staple new ones behind old ones, good way of keeping tabs on how many strings you go through.
No thanx required guys :)

[cgram@adelphia.net]

personally, i don't really see the point of using strings at all. a lot of effort for nothing, really .

[cglover]

http://emedia.leeward.hawaii.edu/frary/changing_strings.htm
Changing Classical Guitar Strings
From Frary Classical Guitar.

Towards the bottom of this page, Frary uses a knot ( or 2 for the trebles ) and slips the string straight through
the bridge like a ball end folk string. The knots don't look very
good, but the tie block is clean and you get the same break as a 12 or 18 hole bridge.
Does anyone do this? I might try it the next time I change
strings.

From the schramm guitars web page on tying strings to the roller:
Note, too, that you should wind the string to the outside. You can't damage anything that way, but you can cause problems by winding to the inside.

I wind to the inside to get a straighter break from the
nut to the roller. Don't know if it makes any difference
in tone, just thought it makes sense.

I'd like to hear any comments about these two ways to
tie at the bridge and roller.........

I saw the same website and wondered the same thing about tieing the string with a ball end or using a glass bead to run the string thru. I might try it out!

I tie my strings at the roller with the same thought in mind to get a straighter break from nut. I think a straighter break saves some wear & tear on the nut and makes for smoother tuning.

[Guitar Slim]

I saw the same website and wondered the same thing about tieing the string with a ball end or using a glass bead to run the string thru. I might try it out!

I tie my strings at the roller with the same thought in mind to get a straighter break from nut. I think a straighter break saves some wear & tear on the nut and makes for smoother tuning.

I'm suprised more string manufacturers don't make ball-end nylon strings. They could be marketed to both the lazy and the obsessive!

OK, ball-ends kind of have a bad rep with some CGers (think LaBella Folksingers). And I suppose they might not be good for the tie block either? But I'm thinking maybe they could try something cone-shaped, that would fit snugly inside any sized hole without buzzing or scratching.

[brian richardson]

bernabe was making/carving
some bone thingies for behind the bridge,
so when tied, it would mimic the break angle of a 12
hole bridge. this begged the question, 'then why not make
a 12 hole bridge?'
i wish there was a conversion kit so i could
make my 6 a 12. but, i'm letting sleeping dogs
lie on this one. couldn't bear letting someone near the perez
bridge with an electric drill:shock:

[DJH]

Brian,

Interesting info about Bernabe...
I understand your reserve, but it doesn't have to be an *electric* drill. This work can be done with a lot of care and precision all by hand. After calculating (and rechecking) the angles a couple of times I drilled using a mounted drill-bit twisted between my finger tips, checking against a jig/guide. Slow and, yes, slightly nerve wracking, but 100 % control and a flawless result.
There's a parisian luthier called Pappalardo who contributes to a classical guitar magazine I get. He wrote a little illustrated article on how to do it and of course regularly does the conversion for customers. If you'd like I'll dig it out.
If you have a luthier who you'd trust to do other work on your pride and joy, it can't to hurt to see what he or she proposes.

Dominic

[brian richardson]

thanks for the heads up Dominic!!!
actually there is a violin builder near bye
who has a long resume of quality work and happy
customers. his french polish work is stunning.
i need some touch-up work on the neck and i'll ask his view
about this.
i'll probably just tie knots on the ends of the strings
and see if i hear some kind of difference.
and then decide if the difference is worth the 'sex change' .
i'm just the type of person who's stuck in the, 'if it isn't
broken, don't fix it.' philosophy.
thanks again for the info Dominic and your
interesting/informative posts in general.

[Plucking1]

One caution for Savarez Alliance neophyte users with these bridges would be to knot the end of the trebles. These slippery devils have a tendancy to pull through the bridge wrap and launch! A small knot pulled up tightly, with the excess clipped (or melted), avoids this. I've not viewed David S's webpage but maybe he covers this.

Yes, even on my 18 hole bridge the first string especially slips. Either the knot or melt a ball as lovaguitara said works fine and is a must for at least the first string. Slippery devils they are, but I love 'em, and they just keep on going!

[Eric Pinson]

I have one guitar with an 18 hole tieblock but still synge the trebles at the end.

The others I have are standard tieblocks and I use 1 loop for the bass 3 for the trebles and synge the ends of the trebles.

E

[cglover]

For B & E trebles I measure and cut off just enough extra string at the end after the string is tied, then loop the string back thru the hole at the back of the bridge. This creates a sorta of noose that tightens as the string is pulled. I've never seen anyone else do this, but it works pretty well on normal strings like EJ45s. Havent tried this on those Savarez Alliance neophyte so this probably wouldnt work if the string is thin and slick.

The 3 base strings and G I just cut short so they dont touch the sound board.

I do want to try the idea with tieing the end in a ball and using the jade beads. I wonder if acoustically it would make any difference if you used jade, glass, wood, metal, brass or bone? I wouldnt think so since the vibrations start at the saddle, but could be wrong.