"Practicing: A musician's Return to Music"

[rdubb]

Has anyone read this book, by Glenn Kurtz? I just ordered it. It looks absolutely fascinating, and totally down my alley. Its pretty new (published earlier this summer).

Google it up and check out the decriptions. Basically this guy was a CG prodigy, burned out and quit, ended up as a literature professor, then rediscovered his love of classical guitar and practicing...its looks sort of like a memoir, and a philosophical and spiritual exploration into what music means to him.

[thedrizzle]

That does look like a great book. Great cover too. It might be awhile before I get around to it but let us know what you think when you are finished.

[MPD]

It ought to be required reading before entry into a conservatory. I suspect the overwhelming majority of conservatory graduates never find gainful employment in their art. As the cost of performance degrees grows more and more hideous each year, it's a wonder some guitar programs (and other instruments, too) survive at all. But it's an insidious system; performance programs nurture the illusion they'll turn dross into gold, thereby sustaining their own existance. The book is alternately funny and sad as the author reflects upon the manner and means by which he learned this lesson later in life.

[rdubb]

Well, I know from personal experience that more and more young'uns who make it through all the way to the DMA typically come from pretty well-to-do backgrounds. And almost everyone knows that they will have to teach a ton when they get out to make a living, or else "find something else to do"

that doesn't change the fact, though, that money may have been wasted to a certain extent, and that perhaps the student may have been better off keeping CG as a serious hobby in adjunct to a different degree.

[condeclaro]

I was flipping through this at the local bookstore and got excited when I saw the chapter titled "Invocation y Danza"...sadly, it has nothing to do with Rodrigo.

[Plucking1]

I just finished this book last week. It had such a positive effect on me that I have been considering trying to write to the author. So, Mr. Kurtz, if you happen by this forum, thanks so much for taking the time and effort to put your thoughts and feelings about guitar into writing.

I too was separated from classical guitar for over twenty years. but it was due to tendonitis. Through a happy series of coincidences and events, I have been able to finally figure out what caused the problem and to largely work around it. I have been playing now for about three years. It's still a work in progress though.

Practicing has really helped me think about why I am putting myself through this again and what I really hope to accomplish at age 62. At least now while I work through this, I have some positive thoughts that help minimize the frustration. A couple of months ago, I came within hours of hanging it up again.

I haven't been to music school or a conservatory, but I would highly recommend that anyone thinking about this route should read this book.

Cheers!

[ranger2000]

I finished the book two weeks ago. This is the first book I've read that strictly talks about the experience of classical guitar playing as opposed to piano, violin, electric guitar, or steel string guitar.

The book is very enjoyable and I have to agree that it should be required reading for any student seriously considering entering a conservatory and graduating into a full time music career.

Basically, it is a memoir of a guitar prodigy in a musical family who dreams of becoming a great concert guitar artist. Along the way, he experiences the joys and frustrations of guitar playing. He graduates from the New England Conservatory of Music (Aaron Shearer was his instructor??) and only realizes after graduation that he does not have what it takes to become a world class concert artist on the scale of Segovia, Bream, Williams, etc. After not playing AT ALL for at least 10 years, he rediscovers his love of the classical guitar and now looks at it in a new and different light.

Although I have another career to rely on and never considered music a full time career, I can relate and understand his feelings of "Am I good enough?", "Am I ever going to get better than this?", "How good am I compared to my peers?", and the big frustrations of relearning technique after learning "bad" technique from previous instructors.

[Antinous]

I found it an interesting story. It kinda drags a little at the beginning and the gimmick of the activity outside his window was not to my liking, but, overall, it was worthwhile as a candid remembrance by one, and there must be many, many more, who have devoted years of their lives to a study that essentially lead nowhere as a career.

[Richard]

http://forum.guitarsalon.com/showthread.php?t=9914&highlight=kurtz

[Antinous]

If it doesn't engage me, it's got to be truly awful.

A bit self-centered wouldn't you think? As if your assessment sets the standard. I don't have high expectations of these kinds of books and hence read them for what they can offer even if it's not a whole lot. Parkening's was really a mess I thought with all the fish stories inserted in the narrative. So I just skipped that part. Segovia's was not really informative at all and only in his critique of Llobet's abilities did he really get into some detail. Kurtz's attempt at literature at the beginning was tedious I admit but overall I thought the book was interesting. If his personality rankled, then obviously, this makes reading difficult. But it didn't bother me, so I enjoyed reading his story. Your experience was clearly different, but does it set the standard?

[JSK]

Antinous -- I think you're misreading Richard's comment. I believe he was self-deprecatingly saying that he is so easily engaged that a book must be truly awful for it to fail to engage him. I don't think "self-centered" is the proper assessment here.

As for the book, I just kept waiting for it to get better, and it never did. Somehow I plowed on through the end, but was very, very glad to have done with it and give it away to my local library. I guess to that extent it did engage me, though in an entirely negative way.

[Ruphus]

"Am I ever going to get better than this?", ... and the big frustrations of relearning technique after learning "bad" technique from previous instructors.

I don´t know if there could have been anyone more inefficient than I was.
Decades of on- and off playing. Even achieving some kinds of virtuosity, but all bodge.

No matter how far you might come with bodge it never comes just remotely close to seamless playing grounded on intelligent technique.

Then again, knowledge on intelligent technique was not very spread until only a couple of years ago ( so, it wouldn´t even have been for certain really efficient had I taken lessons.)

Anyway: It was about decades. Decades of almost no progress. The clamp in your hands always sticking to you like the pest.

Was I hopelessly untalented? Actually that was what I thought, seeing all the players do what I could not.
There was only one certain and possibly even relatively rare skill that I sensed to have. You could call it personality in the playing.

Anyway, the only reason I did not give up was the same reason that dragged me into the subject: The magic of resonating strings.
( Which is why I considered my self rather a sonic guitar freak than a meant-to-be player, until I learned from Ricardo Iznaola that love always means talent too.)

Yet in recent years I started getting a idea of what actually makes the difference between a futilely path like in my past and an efficient one.

Meanwhile I think to have collected all the relevant `settings´and hidden treasures. It doesn´t mean that my way of starting all over again was not long-winded, but it surely pays and slowly, step by step I´m approaching what I never even dreamed of before.

These insights are so thrilling effective that I was willing to share them all over at AG. Yes, some items would have been known already by advanced players, but not all and everyone could have benefitted form my toilsome but conscious decades long search.

It demonstrated when I showed details to decades long playing peeps in life.

However, in forums people either underestimate relevant circumstances to even concentrate reading corresponding messages, or often even don´t have the greatness to feed back and thank you, a stingy midget mind attitude which in the end annoyed me.

So, since a couple of weeks I think that maybe these things could be worth collecting systematically in a book, along with interesting peripherals and conjunctions as general derivates that show in sight of parallels with other arts ( and Life at all ).

In German at least I´m a good writer. And as long as there isn´t out too much in this regard yet such a lecture could be appreciated on the market.

And it would do a lot. Imagination, detailed and related imagination is the main engine in the arts. It surpasses al wishing and sweating in the world.

In fact it is what makes the difference between the great concert players routines and ours. It is not anatomical, nor mainly due to practice time.

Ruphus

[Antinous]

JSK

Richard made a flat statement that if he wasn't engaged by a book it is truly awful. I don't know how else to read this. All I know is I read the book thru, and found it moderately enjoyable. If one finds the writer's personality disagreeable, then surely that will spoil the reading. But that's just a personality issue. Were there factual points that can be disputed? I don't remember any. One thing, books on this subject are rare, so I am inclined to take them as they come.

[Sasquatch51]

JSK

Richard made a flat statement that if he wasn't engaged by a book it is truly awful. I don't know how else to read this. All I know is I read the book thru, and found it moderately enjoyable. If one finds the writer's personality disagreeable, then surely that will spoil the reading. But that's just a personality issue. Were there factual points that can be disputed? I don't remember any. One thing, books on this subject are rare, so I am inclined to take them as they come.

I also think that you misinterpreted Richard's meaning, Antinous.

I took it as saying "I am so easily amused that a book doesn't have to be very good to entertain me...therefore, if I am not engaged by it, it is truly an awful book." I agree with JSK that it was meant to be self-deprecating and said tongue-in-cheek.

[Richard]

I'm personally obsessed by classical guitar. If it doesn't engage me, it's got to be truly awful.
That's exactly what I said (above) in context: basically that if a book on classical guitar doesn't even engage an obsessive CG nerdball like me, it's got to be bad. Nothing self-centered. And, yeah, I really didn't like the book. Just one man's opinion, nothing more.
Oh, and thanks JSK and Sasquatch for coming to my defense.

[Antinous]

I'm so obsessive a CG nerd, that even if they are bad, they are good to me.

edit: gee, a lot of major publications liked the book. Ya gotta wonder why so many here detested it.

http://tinyurl.com/2x6ehj

[gitarplyar]

I read the book. It wasn't the most fascinating reading for the most part, but I think the guy deserves a little more credit than he's gotten. Ok, he seemed to obsess a bit, but aren't most classical guitarist's obsessed, trying to improve their technique. Anyhow, I liked it.
Sherman

[Sasquatch51]

This is all personal opinion. Some like the book, some don't like it and some can take it or leave it.....some will just opt to wait for the movie. It's just like anything else. Why in the world would anyone get upset over someone else's opinion of a book? :roll: Aren't there more important issues in life to get emotional over?

[Richard]

This is all personal opinion. Some like the book, some don't like it and some can take it or leave it.....some will just opt to wait for the movie. It's just like anything else. Why in the world would anyone get upset over someone else's opinion of a book? :roll: Aren't there more important issues in life to get emotional over?
Yes, string tension.

[Sasquatch51]

Yes, string tension.

:mrgreen: No doubt.

[Ruphus]

What about precision tuning and intonation?
This superfluous trash is always good for a nice clubbing round.

Nothing can actually beat half deaf players and their tuning forks, hehehe. :D

Ruphus

[Sasquatch51]

What about precision tuning and intonation?
This superfluous trash is always good for a nice clubbing round.

Nothing can actually beat half deaf players and their tuning forks, hehehe. :D

Ruphus

I tried one of the tuning fork things. I couldn't get the spaghetti carbonara to stay on it, though.

[Ruphus]

Thats because you forgot to boil the spaghettis long enough until they stick. ( Did you know that nudles and wallpaper paste are made of the same thing? That´s what my chemistry teachers used to tell us right before noon break.)

People say that nudles should be cooked al dente, but what do they know. Look at the Chinese and how they went for sloppy rice, so that it would stick together and could be picked up with sticks.

What counts is practicability, not taste, Sas. But I think we figured that already with our adapted carbonara recipe. ;)

Ruphus

[condeclaro]

I think by choosing the name Antinous, it is a signal for us to expect some "emotional" posts...or am I reading too much into this?

My earlier post was my way of saying that the book is not really about CG... Knopf is not in the business of publishing books for guitarists. I believe its target audience is some other circle of folks-- if they enjoy it then it is a success. I found it tedious and lacking substance.


( Which is why I considered my self rather a sonic guitar freak than a meant-to-be player, until I learned from Ricardo Iznaola that love always means talent too.)


Ruphus, I have to know where this comes from? Did you read it or hear it from him? I certainly agree...work ethic is a "talent" as well.

[Antinous]

I think by choosing the name Antinous, it is a signal for us to expect some "emotional" posts...or am I reading too much into this?

Why? I can't see the connection.

[condeclaro]

Why? I can't see the connection.

Ah, sorry, I quoted "emotional" because it had already been an established term in this thread. Probably the more accurate term is "passionate" since Antinous is synonymous with passionate Greek love affairs. You know he is a boy who killed himself after being molested by an Emperor?

Probably, it is meaningless. However, if someone were to analyze my username and decide, here is someone who likes old things and has no concept of Spanish grammar...they would be accurate.

BTW, Welcome to the forum!

[Sasquatch51]

Hmmm..ringleaders of he suitors of Penelope....killed by an arrow to the throat.....homosexual lover of the Emperor Hadrian.....nah...probably no emotions associated with name Antinous. :mrgreen:


<emotionally charged outrage to follow?>

[condeclaro]

Hmmm..ringleaders of he suitors of Penelope....killed by an arrow to the throat.....homosexual lover of the Emperor Hadrian.....nah...probably no emotions associated with name Antinous.


<emotionally charged outrage to follow?>

True, maybe it is meant to be from the Penelope story, but the Antinous depicted on the coin is not the Antinous from mythology, but the Antinous from history.

[Antinous]

You know he is a boy who killed himself after being molested by an Emperor?

From my readings, what is known of Antinous is...nothing. Other that he was the lover of Hadrian. Hadrian's statement was that he fell into the Nile. This at age 20. Most probably he was collected as a boy by the Emperor's retinue during his many trips thru the empire to serve as a page in the court. And like pages in the US Congress...well you know the rest. What interested me is his Cult established by Hadrian was a rival to the Cult of Jesus. How would our world be if the Antinous Cult had triumphed over Jesus?

[condeclaro]

Ah, thanks. I think you are too complicated for me to analyze then. :)

I hope, Ruphus, you still see my question...I am very interested.

[Sasquatch51]

True, maybe it is meant to be from the Penelope story, but the Antinous depicted on the coin is not the Antinous from mythology, but the Antinous from history.


I understand that...I was simply quoting things that I could remember that were associated with that name, as stated in my post.

[Antinous]

condeclaro

None of the on-line translators have a clue and Googling yields only your posts.
I assume you believe it to be Spanish. Claro is clear but conde...?

[Sasquatch51]

condeclaro

None of the on-line translators have a clue and Googling yields only your posts.
I assume you believe it to be Spanish. So...?

Who are you talking to and what are you talking about?

[Antinous]

Are you serious? Are don't you notice ID's

[Sasquatch51]

Are you serious? Are don't you notice ID's

Oh..OK, I see where you said "condeclaro" in the text of your message....missed it the first time. Normally you would quote the text of the message that you are responding to by using the "quote" radio button in that post....makes it much easier....but that's OK. My apologies....no need to get emotional about it. ;)


So...yes, I are do notice ID's...sometimes. But I'm almost never serious.

[Antinous]

sez sasquat...

Normally you would quote the text of the message that you are responding to

Yes but I wasn't responding to a message but questioning his ID just as he did mine without quotes. Check it out.

[Sasquatch51]

There's no problem...I'll just sit back and watch the exchange now...

[condeclaro]

I wasn't responding to a message but questioning his ID just as he did mine without quotes. Check it out.

I think you must be pulling my leg about not recognizing the username. In case you are not...

"Conde Claros" is a favorite melody from renaissance Spanish court music. Many vihuelists composed a series of variations based on the Conde Claros, the most famous being Luys de Narvaez. In choosing my username I was uncomfortable representing myself in the English plural...and with my rudimentary understanding of Spanish believed I could lop off the "s". However, in doing so I stripped the term of any significant meaning. I have thought of asking Dave to change it, but I like that it reminds me of my status as "Worlds Worst Hispanophile."

Ruphus, wo sind Sie?

[Ruphus]

Hier bin ich, Senor Condeclaro! :)

Here is the corresponding excerpt of Mr. Iznaola´s article "Unleashing Talent":
TRADITIONAL musical pedagogy is still tainted by the conventional wisdom which teaches us that musical talent is an innate ‘gift’ with which a few privileged people are blessed, and that its presence or absence is not necessarily related to a vocational calling, which may exist in the ‘untalented’ individual. This deleterious viewpoint shuts the door to the riches of musical training to untold numbers of people who never give themselves a chance to pursue their musical dreams, in the belief that they were born without a talent for music.

The belief in ‘innate talent’ is also a convenient expedient to excuse pedagogical failure; indeed, how can we blame a method or a teacher for the difficulties encountered by this or that ‘not very talented’ individual, poor soul, full of desire and enthusiasm but ‘not gifted’? This pedagogy of predestination has to be counteracted energetically and without compromise. Traditional musical pedagogy must follow the lead of the great early childhood training methods (like those of Orff or Suzuki) and ground itself on the premise that everyone who shows a strong desire to ‘do’ music has a talent for it. This is the only truly disinterested pedagogical posture because it places the burden of responsibility where it properly belongs – with the teacher, instead of the learner.


I just realized that Mr. Iznaola has become sort of an international pop star since the first time that I read from him.
That´s great, I just love sober and scientifical approach to technical and mental regard of guitar playing.
He is even an uncomparably better ambassador for this art than Sen. Segovia was, notwithstanding that Andrés Segovia laudably was the first after a classical guitar lull.

Now, let me go and cry about all the talent that I wasted in 30 years. Only to dry my tears realizing that there might be some time left to make up leeway in a smart way.

[gitarplyar]

What a profound and enlightened message that you quoted Ruphus!
Sherman

[Ruphus]

Hey Sherman,

Isn´t it?
In fact very worth questioning why this has to be modern insight and not much rather instead a traditional one, were we only using a fraction of our intellectual potential.

Just yesterday I was giving examples to someone, elaborating about our sheer incredible ignorance. The cause is anthropologically explainable, yet not to be understood before the fact that we could easily use our sociological and individual consciousness immediately instead of ruminating ancient and obsolete stereotype before the obvious to the contrary.

Sorry for my lousy language.

Ruphus

[Sasquatch51]

I'm glad I never knew until much too late that you are supposed to have "natural talent" to be a good musician. I might have given up before I got started. All I knew was that I loved the sound of classical guitar and I wanted to play.

[cgram@adelphia.net]

Thanks for the though-provoking quote, Ruphus. When I read it, I wondered what his perspective would have been on the reverse issue, namely youngsters with apparent talent but with no motivation or drive. In my case, I always liked singing and showed great interest in music, playing melodies back on the family piano, etc., but at age 6 when my mom said it was time for piano lessons, I remember becoming very upset. After that, there were only a few times during my 6-year piano career when I was really self-motivated to practice. Other than that, my mother (occasionally my dad) had to force me to sit down and practice my stuff for an hour most days. I'm very glad now that my parents did this, because it gave me a musical foundation that still helps me today. But how many 'talented' kids at age five really show a desire to practice 3-4 hours a day at that point? Maybe that's how most successful musicians are, but I know that wasn't the case with me (EDIT: not trying to imply that I am successful :D)

[Michelob]

My Parents were so against any musical inclination, as representing a dangerous deviating interest from the established quasi-noble professions they wanted me to pursue.

At age twelve my friends were hiding prurient literature while i was concealing Bach and Carulli's sheet music...

[thraex]

This thread is going to a deep direction, just what I like!..

Michelob,
It is curious what you say, although understandable. My parents, in change, wanted my sister and me to learn music, among many things in our childhood. She started at 4yrs old with piano..I always complain to them or ask them why was I not started as young, as well ( with music. I had to ask for lessons, actually.
I Don't remember if Harp or Violin was first, but I didn't last long, I was too excited about football at that time ;).
But, this seems common to all of us, when I first started with the guitar, then I was practicing like a madman, it became my love, instantly, and my teachers also noticed talent was there to exploit (again, talent must have been the love I had developed so quick for the instrument)

But, yes, they were supposed to be personality ornaments (musical studies) not a career choice, parents worry endless about children, I would worry if my own (if ever I have) would like to be musicians, also.

Now to Iznaola's text (merci vielmal, Ruphus)
He is definitely a wise man, there is no argument to his thoughts, it is just the truth. Most "talented" people I think got the chops by some combination of luck, meaning that they developed their playing unconsciously early on.
But good teachers should recreate the "good fundamentals" in a way that "untalented and talented" alike can become proficient.

That is a special thing about my class here, I know..I mention Bungarten too much, sorry. But it is strange that the 8 or so students we are, are not the young guns I imagined, full of competition trophies etc (we have, also). Then one of them in my first year explained to me that Bungarten seems to choose his students by "mental age", normally that is older, because he had bad experiences with young superbly talented individuals who studied with him just to prepare competitions or put his name on their CV's. What he likes is "spreading the word" of the fundamentals of sound, music and the technique needed fo that, without compromises.
Only patient, mature players inspired by his playing have the patience to go back to the utmost fundamentals of guitar and build ourselves again, very painfully.

Given that approach, I am convinced now, that if you have a responsible teacher, as Iznaola puts it, then EVERYBODY can develop their talent.
Talent is not fixed, but developed, the difference with the obviously gifted ones is that they naturally arrive at a later stage of development, earlier, thanks to circumstances.

After a "shock period" in this transformation to fundamentals, it is visible that it levels the field of talent, that is talented pedagogics; raising the level of all, not nurturing the easy, which is just to pay attention to the already developed ones.

[Antinous]

per condeclaro,
"Conde Claros" is a favorite melody from renaissance Spanish court music. Many vihuelists composed a series of variations based on the Conde Claros, the most famous being Luys de Narvaez. In choosing my username I was uncomfortable representing myself in the English plural...and with my rudimentary understanding of Spanish believed I could lop off the "s". However, in doing so I stripped the term of any significant meaning. I have thought of asking Dave to change it, but I like that it reminds me of my status as "Worlds Worst Hispanophile."

OK...your previous statement mentioning Spanish grammar thru me off the trail. I had clean forgotten the melody. And as you say condeclaro is not Conde Claros.
But I know what you mean about misspelling a ID and then not being able to change it. I registered an account on another forum as Encopio misspelling Encolpio.
I suspect few if any would notice but it irks me anyway.

[Antinous]

per ruphus,

Now, let me go and cry about all the talent that I wasted in 30 years. Only to dry my tears realizing that there might be some time left to make up leeway in a smart way.

Right...all you need do is purchase his book: "Kitharologus - The Path to Virtuosity, and you too will be a star!

[Ruphus]

Very interesting comments.

I'm glad I never knew until much too late that you are supposed to have "natural talent" to be a good musician. I might have given up before I got started. All I knew was that I loved the sound of classical guitar and I wanted to play.

As humorously as your comment might sound, Sas, it makes serious sense.

I always like to point to North American natives of which most tribes did not even have a word for "art". Making art was / is just something very daily to them, not separated and assigned to only "specialists" as with our cultures.

That way individuals from early age experiment without burden of unreachable images, developing their abilities light-heartedly and being supported by an understood community.

The consequence being, lots of skills on a broad level and no bogus market like ours where especially since the Cold War times outrageously clumsy crap of completely untalented people being traded for immense amounts of money that is decadently withheld from proficiently producing and people in material need.

When I read it, I wondered what his perspective would have been on the reverse issue, namely youngsters with apparent talent but with no motivation or drive.
Good question.
I would assume that he might again point to bad didactics.
The younger the pupil the more didactically efficient and inspiring the teacher needs to be.
Just thinking of the authoritarian classical piano teacher, standing beside the student with a ruler in his hand explains a lot about children who sensed classes as demotivating tasks.
Not to mention stiff interpretations and misdirected traditional methods that meant huge detours and hinderings to the students.

My Parents were so against any musical inclination, as representing a dangerous deviating interest from the established quasi-noble professions they wanted me to pursue.
I think that´s how it vastly used to be in traditional western households. The profession of music was considered lowly and nonserious.

My parents, in change, wanted my sister and me to learn music, among many things in our childhood. She started at 4yrs old with piano..I always complain to them or ask them why was I not started as young, as well ( with music. I had to ask for lessons, actually.
Same here.
My four year older sister got piano classes without being inspired and finally giving up. Probably from there noone expected me to become any different and thus did not even try to check that out.
What a sad misconception.

Most "talented" people I think got the chops by some combination of luck, meaning that they developed their playing unconsciously early on.

I had behaviour science selected as main subject in high school and been investigating in this as well as psychology, sociology and anthropology since then.

It is being said that there are certain talents as basic outfit with every human. Among them singing / musical talent.

However in a capitalistic society that bases on keeping vast majority in the treatmill to prevent awareness of exploitation, cycles are arranged in a way that parentship is limited in timely attention / from there offsprings´ shortcomings in satisfaction of essential drives providing compensational behaviour which again is backing up required compliance needed to preserve a societal system of surplus value and stealing of underprivileged´s labour equivalent and lifetime.

Thus we have despatched since centuries from natural upbringing, which would include development of the basic talents.

The fact alone that most of us can´t even sing is unnatural. The ability to sing otherwise would be just as self-evident as the one to speak.

Right...all you need do is purchase his book: "Kitharologus - The Path to Virtuosity, and you too will be a star!

My comment you are referring to with this quote was meant seriously though.

I wish I could return with a time machine and show little Ruphus what´s relevant; boy, could I be capable in playing the guitar today! And all the time that would had not been wasted into completely misled understanding of how things work, that only established the wrong techniques even more.

Now, that I understand things much better, I not only found sense and patience to rebuild `my hands´again, but I want to tell everyone with unergonomical playing to stop immediately and start thing over from a strictly and meticulously controlled base.

It would also mean to not play pieces for a long time, due to relapse that it meant, rendering the efforts useless.

So hard at first, and possibly taking years, but what you get in return you could have never achieved without.

Ruphus

[gitarplyar]

In considering why my efforts to play the guitar have been a relative failure, I believe Impatience is at the core, an unwillingness to submit if you will to the "imposed" or suggested means of the teacher. It seems to have been a part of my personality which I am just beginning to understand a bit. As an example, some years ago I learned the Segovia scales because it seemed that many of the classical guitarists were practicing them. I even went to the trouble of marking the sheets with right hand fingerings, so I would know if I was alternating correctly. However, after some time, perhaps a couple of months I just gave it up, said no more, "I'm not going to play scales", I want to play pieces. So, since my musical tastes run toward the South American variety, after hearing the music of Garoto I bought the sheet music and started trying to play. As many of you might guess, while I had some satisfaction with "trying to play" some of these melodies, the end result was not what I had hoped for as my technique was nowhere near a level needed for this music. Likewise, a similar result with a few of Villa Lobos pieces, and in general this failure describes perhaps a period of about 15 years, where nothing really was accomplished. About three or four years ago, I came to realize that I was trying to "beat a dead horse" so to speak. So, now I am concentrating on pieces which appeal to my taste, and which are not so technically demanding. What I've found is that these easier pieces are just as challenging in a way to make them sound beautiful. And, I am relearning the Segovia scales, just for my hands, to help with the tone, basically doing it because I want to, not because someone suggested it, or everyone else does it.

[Antinous]

About three or four years ago, I came to realize that I was trying to "beat a dead horse" so to speak. So, now I am concentrating on pieces which appeal to my taste, and which are not so technically demanding. What I've found is that these easier pieces are just as challenging in a way to make them sound beautiful.

Just so...The Path to Happiness playing the guitar. Know your limitations. And there are some fine pieces that fit the bill. For me it's:
Spanish Dance #5
Homage to Debussy
studies 17 and 19 Sor/segovia
Bach BWV999, prelude BWV1007, govotte l & ll BWV 1012
RDLA tarrega
Liebeslied Mertz
Balletto Ponce
Children's song #1 Corea
Capricho Catalan Albeniz
Fairest Lord Jesus anon
Llobet Catalan folk songs
Brouvwer Etudes Simples

There are lots of others but these are the ones I am working on now. How about it. Any suggestions. No finger breakers allowed.

[sanderdude]

So far I'm limited to downloading tab. No teachers near here and I don't read music on guitar yet. I'm just starting to play again after quitting a long time ago. Here are 2 I am working on that I particularly like that are deceptively easy but hard for me to get to sound perfectly beautiful. Milonga by Jorge Cardoso and Sonata in A maj. by Scarlitti #238.

[cgram@adelphia.net]

Antinous, some of those pieces you mentioned are quite challenging. I've seen several students struggle to attain the polish and balance necessary to really 'get' the 5th Granados Dance, in particular. I haven't tried it yet, I've just heard that there's a lot to all of those dances once you actually delve deeply into them. Congratulations though on a varied and challenging repertoire.

[gitarplyar]

Antinous, some of those pieces are not easy at all! RDLA comes immediately to mind, I don't even play it, but I've seen very good guitarists struggle with it. Granados Spanish Dance is another, I never hear anyone play it. I'm curious though which arrangement of "Spanish Dance" you play?
Sherman

[Antinous]

I'm curious though which arrangement of "Spanish Dance" you play?

Llobets. The reason #5 is heard so much is because it is by far the easiest of the dances to play. I worked very hard on #10 for instance and had to give up on it. IMO none of the pieces I mentioned offer any insurmountable technical difficulty for the amateur with a limited time to practice. . The key is choosing pieces that you like so much you can stand to play them literally countless times and working out the fingering in careful detail. Also some pieces take years to learn. It's amazing how your mind can make progress on a piece when you let it lay fallow for a few months. Patience is exactly the word.

[condeclaro]

Thank you Ruphus...I have now found the entire article as well.;)

My local guitar society invited Iznaola to perform a couple weeks ago. He is still a very impressive player, though I have to say I would have preferred to pick his mind for an hour instead. He is interesting on his own merit, but also unique in that he represents a lineage of guitar separate from Segovia.

I like that Iznaola is still interested in the adult beginner. In my small circle, we have a new guy who has only just begun in his late 40's. He puts us all to shame with his love and enthusiasm...he is a CG madman!

So you didn't have any pruriant literature Michelob? I am starting to doubt you are Italian.:p

[gitarplyar]

So you didn't have any puriant literature Michelob? I am starting to doubt you are Italian.

Here, Here!!

[Michelob]

Guitarplyer… That was “Prurient” literature (= arousing an unwholesome interest in “Italian” sort of matters) not “Puritan” (although I like your dash of irony in using the Antonym).

Just like you, my Italian parents thought of me as “gender-confused” for favoring music [classical] instead of soccer and girl-chasing [they were so worried they made my weekly allowance contingent on leaving school in the company of girls as opposed to long-haired nerdy boys solfeggio-ing Vivaldi].

In the long run, however, the guitar paid off, as it negotiated and eased more social relations than soccer or the petty satisfaction of “prurient” material.

Jokes aside, playing guitar did mitigate my difficult adolescent years. I am forever grateful to those Nerdy Boys who got me into it, as opposed to whatever else many at that age get influenced into….

i was and still am HIGH on guitar's music.

[Ruphus]

i was and still am HIGH on guitar's music.

That one´s easy for me.

Most esthetical beings in my world:

1. Truely beautiful women. ( Those beauty contest `juries´ have absolutely no clue what stunning beauty can look like, otherwise they´d just close their shops.)

2. Cats, up from sibirian tigers down to main coons.

3. Many kinds of Horses.

4. Guitars.

5. All that´s fatally extincting. From unique species and landscapes to dear human personalities.

Period!
No objections allowed.

Ruphus Wissarionowitsch Esthetikovski