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  #11  
Old 08-29-2009, 07:14 AM
chimayred chimayred is offline
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Default pavan vs clarita

hi, i am a 54 year old dilettante. I have a good ear and have a 30 year old handmade Yamaha GC 3D, a gorgeous guitar virtually unknown even to alleged experts. TO give you an idea of my skill level, I'm working on Bach's Prelude, Fugue and Allegro. I'm not lightning fast and have no delusions about my skill level. If you compare me to really good classical guitarists or pros, I am embarassingly incompetent. If you compare me to the other 3 billion people on the planet, I'm a pretty good classical guitarist.

I just started taking lessons again. I figured I would upgrade my instrument. I am a professional and pretty well off. If I wanted to buy an original Hauser and could find one, I could afford it. But I have no delusions; instruments like that belong in the hands of Bream and Williams. So I started a search. I wanted to spend in the low 1000's. I don't have time to travel to Philly or Boston to go to specialty guitar stores. Wish I did. Might have had a different outcome.

I was impressed by everything I've read about Pavan, and equally so with Loriente. They were the only guitars I really felt I would pay for in that range, although I am aware of other brands. I had the privilege of playing a mint condition Loriente Clarita, a 2007, I think a few days ago.

It was a beautiful guitar. It is about $1600 new. Selling for $1275 with case. It had nice balanced tone and played nicely. I thought the 12th fret harmonics and fretted notes were a little off. But it didn't impress me as that striking a change from where I was with my Yamaha, so I ordered a Pavan TP20. It arrived yesterday. It's about the same price with case.

I don't want to get into what the best guitar is any more than I want to spend another second of my life arguing about who the best guitarist(s) is/are (leo kottke, Django, Julian Bream, Pat Metheny, and Doc Watson, in case you care). But I am keeping the TP 20. I'd give the Loriente a slight edge in fit and finish, maybe 9.5 vs. 9.0. Playability/action - slight definite edge to Pavan. Sound? No content. Yes, it is subjective. But the richness of overtones, sustain and overall resonance there was no comparison in my mind. Strike an open D with the guitar facing you and the sustain and overtones were definitely and remarkably better not only than my beloved GC3D, but than the more expensive Loriente. Yes, it would be nice to patronize a US luthier and buy a truly handcrafted guitar, if in deed that is what the Clarita is. But the Pavan is staying.

Bottom line? Try em 'all. Listen to them, not your or someone elses biases. In 2 years, if I can play the Chaconne, I may spend a few days pursuing a $2000 guitar but for now this guitar fits the bill and is everything it is cracked up to be. It is a good place for us classical guitarists to be in to have options for instruments of this caliber in the $1000-1500 range. So in summary I find the $1125 Pavan TP 20 to be the equivalent or superior to the $1600 Loriente. That's where my money went.
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  #12  
Old 08-29-2009, 09:02 AM
marc marc is offline
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Were you able to try a TP20 before you ordered yours? I had read good things about Pavan and, especially, Loriente guitars, but I was a little hesitant about ordering online. In any event, it sounds like you found yourself a guitar you like at a good price. Congratulations!
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Last edited by marc; 08-30-2009 at 01:44 PM.
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  #13  
Old 08-29-2009, 12:51 PM
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Jubilee Valence Jubilee Valence is offline
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You've inferred that your new Pavan is from the "made in Spain" line that Tom sells online after a personal shop adjustment rather than one of his professional Santa Fe Lumber masterpieces

We'd love to hear/see the details regarding this set-up as it may be the first ever on these pages---specifically action height & string choice, woods, heads etc....

So please include some pics & details, thanks!
_____

Also:

I find it interesting that you'd choose this forum of all places to introduce your quick review of the Loriente which concluded in an apparent open partials clash that resembled that which seems to be inherent in & of your ancient Yamaha.
(I personally passed on a hand built custom shop Yamaha flamenco with brushed-on varnish back in 1976 which was being sold at Teruya's Music in Kozatown Okinawa...it was a heavy, dull sounding beast)

So would you think that your unique experience with the Loriente is due to bad strings, defect, damage.....any ideas?

I don't recall ever reading such a review anywhere....

Thanks again!
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  #14  
Old 08-30-2009, 07:14 AM
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BrentinFL BrentinFL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubilee Valence View Post
I find it interesting that you'd choose this forum of all places to introduce your quick review of the Loriente
I too find this interesting as a first post, prompting me too add my 2 frets worth. While I dont doubt the truthfullnees of this persons review, It is quite different from my experience with Pavan/Clarita. I had the opportunity to compare a Pavan TP-30 (his top model) to my Hirade and my Kohno, all with the same strings(J44's). The Pavan looked great and had a sweet sound, but wasnt quite as strong as my Hirade, and no where near the power of the Kohno. OTOH, The Clarita I eneded up purchasing also has a very nice sound, but is easily stronger then my Hirade, and not as strong as the Kohno. Unless you plan to play mp all the time, I would think dynamic range would be one of the main considerations in purchasing a new guitar.
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  #15  
Old 09-02-2009, 05:18 PM
kennykw kennykw is offline
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Default Pavan

Last year, I did visit Tom and tried out the guitars..TP-30 primarly...the guitar is beautiful and honestly "just average for the price range" sound is decent but the Loriente is noticeably superior in that the sound jumps off the frets!!
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  #16  
Old 09-16-2009, 07:52 AM
chimayred chimayred is offline
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Default reply pavan vs clarita

wow. Never figured I'd generate such a little firestorm.
Well.
listen, it's all personal. people are invested in their instruments, just like cars and watches. You wanna by a Rolex, fine. You want craftsmanship, buy a Jaeger, Lange, or patek.
They all keep time, they are all made of steel, gold and jewels.

The type of woods don't make any difference now because almost every guitar in every line are all Ebony, spruce/cedar and indian rosewood. The quality of the wood and the quality of the luthier matters.

I didn't quickly evaluate the Clarita in a partials clash. I sat with it for a half hour. The Clarita was the leader in the price range based on what I read. But i was expecting more compared with my baseline Yamaha. It didn't make up the difference. My instructor valued my Yamaha at $1000-1500. So paying $500 more for a Clarita that didn't sound considerably better, well, just didn't make sense. It wasn't damaged. Strings weren't that old, but the strings on my Yamaha were; they'd sat in my case (in origianl package) for 20 years. So again, with new strings, the Clarita just didn't impress me enough. Those of you who make your living with it are far better musicians than I am but it doesn't free any of us from our biases. Those who own Clarita's aren't unbiased. Those who own Pavan's aren't unbiased.

In the 70's I played a lot of steel string guitar and could only afford a Yamaha steel string. I had a lot of friends with Martins, esp. D28 and 45's. Sorry to burst a lot of balloons, but I never played a Martin that sounded as good as my plywood yamahas. workmanship? magnificent. But once you invest (back then) $500 in a Martin you are going to contort your mind that you own the best. Never mind that the little guild my best friend in college won in a poker game ran rings around D28's! It was so pervasive that I dubbed it the Martin guitar syndrome. Applies to Rolexes, Nikons, Audi's as well. (I have owned one of each, and I like my Lange, Canon, and Passat as much or more. Well...I do like my nikon D40).

so I am not trying to disparage the Loriente line. I am just offering my reasoning for passing on a very nice used Clarita and buying a TP 20. And yes, it was one of the jobbed out spanish guitars, not a Prisloe original. Strings are D'addario EJ 46's, hard tension. It was a slightly higher than entry level instrument and now that i've played it side by side with my GC3D for a few weeks, well, I'm even more impressed. And I ordered it with the 7 day trial and found the terms favorable and Tom Prisloe, who I"ve talked to twice, terrific. Thanks all..

The pics of the tp20 can be found on www.pavanguitars.com along with the construction details.
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  #17  
Old 09-16-2009, 08:27 AM
83Reyes 83Reyes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chimayred View Post
I never played a Martin that sounded as good as my plywood yamahas.
That says everything I need to hear.

From everything I know, including my own experience, the Loriente is in a totally different league, and a totally different guitar. The Pavan is just another Esteve, essentially the exact same Spanish factory guitar being stamped out by the thousands, in factories all around Spain. Just another generic, cookie-cutter factory design that everyone seems to offer. Nothing wrong with that, but the Loriente line is unique.

Also - that's great that Prisloe "sets them up" when he puts in his labels, but as far as I'm concerned, Esteve shouldn't be shipping out new guitars that need any adjustment, to begin with.

All that said, you're right - maybe I'm biased because I own a Loriente. But I've certainly heard Martins that are better than plywood Yamahas, so I'll trust my own judgment on this one.

Lawrence
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  #18  
Old 09-16-2009, 09:00 AM
JohnW400 JohnW400 is offline
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I think Yamaha makes an excellent CG for the money but their steel strings leave much to be desired.

This type of argument crops up at jazz forums all the time where some try to equate low end plywood arch tops to hand carved luthier built instruments and claim that theres no difference or that their Ibanez sounds better than a custom luthiered instrument. It just isn't so.

As far as the personal service from Tom Prisloe, I sent him 3 e-mails and left 2messages with his wife/girlfriend trying to get more information about his TP-20 cutaway. He never replied. He lost a sale.

I wish Loriente made a cutaway "crossover" guitar. Or even Antonio Picado.
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  #19  
Old 09-16-2009, 09:59 AM
ssante ssante is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnW400 View Post

I wish Loriente made a cutaway "crossover" guitar. Or even Antonio Picado.
http://www.guitarsalon.com/product.php?productid=3397
Kenny Hill Master Grade "Crossover 14"
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  #20  
Old 09-16-2009, 10:50 AM
JohnW400 JohnW400 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssante View Post
http://www.guitarsalon.com/product.php?productid=3397
Kenny Hill Master Grade "Crossover 14"
Thanks but that one is out of my budget.

I was looking in the $1500-$2800 range. I wound up ordering an Alhambra 7p CWE with a humicase metro.

This will actually be a big step up from my Yamaha CG171 which has served me well as I get my right hand in shape.

In a few years I may be ready to plunk down that kind of money on a better instrument. But for now.....
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